JF2727: 3 Tips for Seller Follow-Ups on Slow-Closing Deals ft. David Robinson

Closing deals isn’t always a quick process. Multifamily investor David Robinson spent a year working with a seller who originally backtracked on the deal before finally closing with him. In this episode, David reveals the follow-up strategy he used for 12 months that eventually led to making this deal happen, along with how he sourced the property and the details of his exit plan.

David Robinson | Real Estate Background

  • Managing Partner at Canova Capital, a multifamily investment firm.
  • Portfolio:
    • GP of 162-unit (Kansas City, MO), 72-unit (Mentor, OH).
    • JV of 14-unit (Orem, UT).
    • LP of 94-unit syndication (Mesa, AZ).
  • 18 years of experience as a broker.
  • Based in: Salt Lake City, UT
  • Say hi to him at:

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Follow Up Boss



Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to The Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show. I’m Joe Fairless. This is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast where we only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any fluffy stuff. With us today, David Robinson. How are you doing, David?

David Robinson: I’m doing great, Joe.

Joe Fairless: Well, I’m glad to hear that. David’s the managing partner at Canovo Capital, that is a multifamily investment firm. The portfolio that his firm has, he’s a GP of a 162-unit in Kansas City, Missouri, and a 72-unit in Mentor, Ohio. I’ll have to look at Google Maps for that one. A JV of 14 units in Utah, and he’s an LP on a 94-unit in Mesa, Arizona. He’s also got 18 years of experience as a broker. He is based in Salt Lake City, Utah. With that being said, do you want to give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and your current focus?

David Robinson: Yeah, absolutely. So as you mentioned, my background is in real estate in general. The first part of my career was focused on traditional residential sales management, team management, and managing a national franchise brokerage here in Salt Lake City. I transitioned eventually to starting my own small boutique brokerage that focuses heavily on working with buy and hold investors who are looking to acquire small multifamily property for their own personal portfolios. By small, I’m generally referencing anything under $5 million in value, all the way down to roughly your duplex. So that’s what our brokerage does today. We recently, in the last 18 months or so, started to explore alternative options to help our investors participate in a little bit better cash flow opportunities than we have been able to find them here locally in a high-growth market like Utah.

So that got us involved in the syndication side of things. We started out by buying a small 14-unit here in Utah to test the waters with that; that was more of a joint venture. And then have partnered on two other acquisitions in the last six months. You mentioned Mentor, Ohio, Northeast suburb of Cleveland, and Kansas City, Missouri. Today, we still do both. I’m still an active broker here locally, helping our clients that are looking to buy small multifamily for their own personal portfolios, as well as getting more and more involved in larger commercial syndication deals.

Joe Fairless: Let’s talk about the 72-unit and 162-unit first, and then we might backtrack a little bit. Which one came first, the 72 or 162?

David Robinson: Kansas City. Yeah.

Joe Fairless: Okay. Let’s talk about that first. I believe I heard that you partnered with another group on that?

David Robinson: That’s correct. My plan in getting involved in larger syndications was I felt, based upon the conversations that I was having with my local investors, that they had an appetite to participate as passive investors in some deals in the Midwest. So I also started to host a podcast, so I’ve had an opportunity to network with a lot of different operators. I started to reach out to operators who were in the Midwest that I had a good connection with and had appreciated the relationship that we’d built over time. I felt like they had a good business model, so I reached out to some of them. I continued to foster those relationships, and ultimately expressed interest in being a part of a larger acquisition and bringing members of my investor network into those deals. So I partnered with a group that is local to the Kansas City market, [unintelligible [00:06:38].09] in commercial real estate there for the last decade. That’s how I got involved in that deal.

Joe Fairless: And what about the 72-unit?

David Robinson: The 72-unit, a similar story. I had interviewed a guest on my podcast over a year earlier, and had built a relationship with him. I came to understand sort of his investing philosophy and what he was focused on. We had just maintained contact. He had gotten the 72-unit deal under contract and was looking for a co-GP, so he and I and one other business partner took that one down.

Joe Fairless: And how long have you been in those two deals?

David Robinson: We closed out in Kansas City, both of those deals are roughly within the last six months.

Joe Fairless: Okay, so relatively new. I was going to ask what has gone wrong, but in six months, maybe some unexpected things, but probably not any war stories on that.

David Robinson: Well, one of the challenges that we faced on the Kansas City deal was on the debt side. We had a few debt options lined up for some unforeseen circumstances; really just some conflicts that one of the bridge lenders had ultimately pulled out on fairly short notice. We had to scramble to put together another bridge lender in a matter of about three weeks. Luckily, my partner there had a great connection with a bridge lender, he was able to move quickly and we got it done. But it wasn’t without a lot of stress and sweat, that’s for sure.

Joe Fairless: What were the consequences if you did not get it done within that period of time?

David Robinson: I think we would have been able to extend, but there wasn’t an extension in place at that point in time, so there was risk of losing the deal… Which – I think the seller saw that there was still some meat on the bone there, so there was a very legitimate risk that he may have pulled out and sort of repositioned the sale. That was the main risk, is losing our hard-earned money on that deal.

Joe Fairless: Or just made you put in a little bit more money, either on the purchase price or non-refundable.

David Robinson: Correct. Yeah, I would suspect that we would have potentially even a penalty; just a fee upfront, an additional extension.

Joe Fairless: The joint venture of the 14-unit that’s local – tell us about how that’s structured. It seems like that’s had more seasoning. Can you talk about that?

David Robinson: That was an interesting deal. As we started to explore getting more involved on the ownership side of things rather than just brokerage business, we really wanted to test the waters on small commercial in our local market. So that was a year-long process that originated through direct mail to the owner. The purchase price was 2.2 million, on 14 units, a 1970s construction, two bed one bath units, in a great location in my local market here. But I originally contacted the owner through direct mail, she reached out, I made an offer to her, and we had agreed verbally on terms, but she was looking to exchange into a triple net lease. She thought that she had a property that was going to be a good fit for her, that ultimately fell out, and she sort of back-tracked on our agreement. It was okay, I understood. I followed up with her, stayed in touch, and ultimately, about 12 months later, we ended up putting the contract back together, albeit about $200,000 more than what I had originally offered her.

Joe Fairless: What was her justification for the increased price?

David Robinson: She just knew she could get more. In fact, she hadn’t marketed it through a broker. She was actually a real estate agent herself, but hadn’t listed the property in any way, but had had conversations with other potential buyers, so she knew she could get more. Anyway, at that point in time, I went through all the due diligence myself and then brought in two partners that were really strategic partners, in the sense that they brought all the equity to the deal. So we brought about a million dollars in equity to the deal, that was coming out of another property that they had just sold. And they also had a local property management company, so they were the ideal partner for this property, because they own other assets that are very, very similar to this one in the general area, within about a two-mile to three-mile radius. So they were the perfect partner.

Joe Fairless: Those skillsets, if you could just ideally come up with a partner, money and experience managing similar properties, check those two boxes and those are your people.

David Robinson: Yeah, it was great. The numbers weren’t exciting, to be honest, for me. They weren’t exciting for me, but it was a great scenario for them. They were really excited to sort of exit a lower quality asset and move their equity into this property that has some upside potential, and another asset that they could add to their management company.

Joe Fairless: You said it was a year-long process and it originated through direct mail. What was written on the direct mail piece?

David Robinson: It was very generic, very simple. It was specific to that property. “Hi, Owner. You own a property on 123 Main Street. I’m a local investor and broker, and I’m interested in buying your building there. If you have any interest in potentially selling, please reach out. I can be flexible on time and terms and happy to pay a fair price.”

Joe Fairless: What took place over those 12 months, in terms of your follow-ups with the seller, that you’d like to share with us? I’d love to know how you stayed in touch, if at all, during those 12 months.

David Robinson: I absolutely stayed in touch; a lot of touchpoints. As a broker, you’ve got to have good follow-up systems in place, so that we did. We have a traditional CRM that had reminders and automated messaging. But ultimately, it was a combination of email, text, and phone calls over that period of time.

Break: [00:12:34][00:14:31]

Joe Fairless: Are you saying the same thing? And if so, that would be redundant and borderline annoying. “Hey, did you find that triple net yet? Did you find that triple net yet?”

David Robinson: Yeah. I think I probably was annoying at some point in time to her, but I tried to be very low pressure, and just “Hey, checking in. I wanted to see how things are coming along with your search.” I tried to be helpful to her too in her search. So I had referred her down to a couple of brokers that focused on triple net lease in the market that she was looking in, which was about four hours South of our market here in St. George, Utah. So I tried to be helpful to her, we even explored doing some seller financing options that would potentially be of benefit to her, and really just tried to maintain a good relationship, good communication, but never really just trying to push for a contract or anything like that.

Joe Fairless: What CRM system do you use?

David Robinson: It’s funny, you started advertising Follow Up Boss on your show, and I’ve used Follow Up Boss for quite a few years now.

Joe Fairless: Did you ever look for a triple net lease property for her, just to try and get it to the finish line?

David Robinson: It wasn’t my space. I didn’t really have a grip on that product type, so I didn’t feel like it was a good use of my time. But I did just try to connect her with brokers that did have deal flow in that space. And it ended up not being the issue in the long run. Some circumstances change between her and her family; she owned it with two other siblings, and I think the motivation just started to build up, and they all decided to say, “Alright, it’s time. Let’s go ahead and do it.”

Joe Fairless: Right, let’s get our cash and move on from this partnership. Okay. It’s been how long since you’ve owned that 14-unit?

David Robinson: We bought that one in July of 2021. This might be interesting to your listeners – I’m actually exiting that deal.

Joe Fairless: Exiting the joint venture partnership, but the deal is not being sold?

David Robinson: That’s correct.

Joe Fairless: Tell us about that.

David Robinson: The way that I structured it was – it was a joint venture structure, both of them were business partners in their management business and on other assets. So we structured it as a joint venture, but I took ownership as a tenant in common, because the return profile on it wasn’t super exciting for me.

Joe Fairless: What was it?

David Robinson: They were great, they were excited about it, because it fit their profile of an asset. They’re long-term buy-and-hold guys and they’re just planning on managing it very lean, which they’ve done. They weren’t going to do a value-add play on it or anything like that. So they’re just lean and mean managers of this C-class asset type, which was a great fit for them. But for me, the return profile was a 3% cash on cash.

Joe Fairless: You didn’t put any money into it?

David Robinson: Just initial risk capital, but I got that out when we closed.

Joe Fairless: Okay, so 3% on no money in is good, but…

David Robinson: 3% cash-on-cash for the whole deal.

Joe Fairless: For everyone, and you got it — what percent did you have of that cash?

David Robinson: I had a 10% stake in that deal.

Joe Fairless: Got it. What does that quarterly payout look like?

David Robinson: Zero.

Joe Fairless: Lunch money?

David Robinson: Yeah, yeah. And I thought that that would come about, and I knew that I was planning on getting involved in other deals…

Joe Fairless: Did you collect a fee as a broker on the front end?

David Robinson: I didn’t. I didn’t collect a fee as a broker.

Joe Fairless: Did you make any money on this deal?

David Robinson: [laughs] Well, it’ll equate to — so they’re buying me out, and it’ll be about $100,000 buyout roughly.

Joe Fairless: Okay. Got it. Cool. Well, that’s good. How do you value the amount of money that you get paid out? I know they’re in the contract, and there are some ways to do it technically, but I’m just curious how…

David Robinson: It was pretty simple. We basically just did a market evaluation of the asset, 10% equity in the deal minus the debt that they brought to the deal.

Joe Fairless: Got it. And as far as getting a value, do you get work with an appraiser or do you just see what the cap rates are?

David Robinson: They’re both brokers, although not active, but they’re very familiar, as am I, so we just came to an agreement on what a fair value was for the asset.

Joe Fairless: Okay, cool.

David Robinson: So it was pretty simple, and then we just are doing a loan modification. So we’re just modifying the loan, they’re buying me out, getting me off the title, and then I’ll roll that into another property. But I did structure it as a TIP, because I thought that I would potentially 1031-exchange that into another small asset. But it just so happens that I’m actually going to move that into a larger syndication deal that we’re working on.

Joe Fairless: And why not move that 100k tax-deferred into another asset of your own and build your own portfolio on the side, while doing the syndication stuff on the other side?

David Robinson: Well, for two reasons. I’m trying to avoid mixing my own investing interests with my brokerage clients. So I’m trying to avoid buying anything small, because that’s the space that I play in from a brokerage perspective.

Joe Fairless: I get that.

David Robinson: So it’s not to say that I wouldn’t do it, and I don’t think that there are really any ethical issues there. But I think it’s cleaner if I can maintain some distance between the two. So that’s the number one reason. And two, having some additional equity go into larger syndication deals is what I’m more excited about at this point.

Joe Fairless: Why?

David Robinson: I just see potential. I’ve enjoyed partnering with my partners on the previous two deals, and what I’ve realized is that my investor network here locally has a strong appetite to invest passively in deals in the Midwest and in other parts of the country. I was surprised at how well or how quickly we raised the equity that we needed on the two deals that we’ve purchased recently. So I have a high demand for that type of deal, and want to be able to provide that as an option to my investor network.

Joe Fairless: Taking a step back, what’s your best real estate investing advice ever?

David Robinson: I would probably say go bigger, faster. I played in the residential space for quite a long time, and didn’t make a lot of progress from a cash flow and wealth-building standpoint. As soon as I got around people that were thinking bigger and doing bigger deals, that had a significant impact on my own personal cash flow and wealth building. I think everybody takes the action that’s appropriate for them in that moment, but I think going bigger, faster would be my advice.

Joe Fairless: We’re going to do a lightning round. Are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?

David Robinson: Let’s do it.

Joe Fairless: What deal have you lost the most amount of money on?

David Robinson: I actually have not lost any money on a deal that I’ve invested in, but I have lost money on a deal where I was brokering. This was many years ago, when we were doing short sales. We got to the closing table and I had made a mistake. Well, myself and the title company that I worked with… We had not realized that there was a second lien on the asset that needed to be addressed. Although it probably wasn’t my full responsibility, instead of making a commission on the sale, I ended up writing a check for $8,000 to get the deal closed for the seller.

Joe Fairless: [laughs] Oh, man. Lesson learned on that one, huh?

David Robinson: Yeah. That was that was a mistake, that’s for sure.

Joe Fairless: What about a deal you’ve made the most amount of my money on?

David Robinson: Well, from a return profile perspective, it was this 14-unit, because I had zero of my own money into the deal. I had some upfront costs, so I had earnest money — I only had $10,000 of earnest money in the deal. And maybe another — I think it was about four grand in due diligence. But my partners reimbursed me for those costs when we purchased the property. So I’m literally zero money in that deal, and a little more than $100,000 later in about eight months. Not a bad return.

Joe Fairless: Best Ever way you like to give back to the community?

David Robinson: Me and my wife are faith-based, and we have a local congregation church that we are heavily involved with, and youth programs. I’ve got young kids that are in those programs. That’s one way. And then I love to coach youth football. It’s one of my favorite things to do. I have an opportunity to coach my boys and some other youth in the community here, so between those two ways, that’s how we like to give back.

Joe Fairless: How can the Best Ever listeners learn more about what you’re doing?

David Robinson: They can connect with me at canovocapital.com, that’s probably the best way. Yeah, I would love to connect with anybody that has an interest in connecting, whether it be on opportunities from an investment standpoint, passive investing, or just to connect.

Joe Fairless: Thank you, David, for being on the show talking about the JV structure, how you’ve evolved from what you were doing. Well, you currently are still doing it, but in addition to that, or I guess how you supplemented what you’re currently doing in addition to what you’re doing now. Talking about the one-year process that it took for that 14-unit deal, regardless of how it was structured, just learning about that process was important for all of us to realize how much time it actually can take to get a deal done. But thanks for being on the show. I hope you have a Best Ever day and talk to you again soon.

David Robinson: Thanks, Joe.

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JF2352: Playing A Real Estate Version Of Moneyball With Kevin Clayson

A divorce moved Kevin to change his career path. After working in retail, he decided to try himself in the financial sector working with mortgages. In 2007, he started a Done For You Real Estate company together with his three friends. They make investing in real estate easy by educating their clients about the market and guiding them through the closing process. Their mission is to help people replace their income and secure their future by making a conservative investment that will hold no matter what the economy’s like.

Kevin Clayson  Real Estate Background:

  • Owner of Done For You Real Estate a multi-million dollar real estate investment company
  • 15 years of real estate investing experience
  • His company has transacted around 4,000 single-family homes
  • Based in Utah
  • Say hi to him at www.dfy-realestate.com 
  • Best Ever Book: Go-Giver

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Best Ever Tweet:

“Leave people better off” – Kevin Clayson.


Theo Hicks: Hello Best Ever listeners and welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Theo Hicks, and today we’ll be speaking with Kevin Clayson. Kevin, how are you doing today?

Kevin Clayson: Good, Theo. Thanks for having me, man. How are you?

Theo Hicks: I’m doing well, and thank you for joining us. I’m looking forward to diving into what you do. So Kevin is the owner of a Done For You Real Estate, a multi-million dollar real estate investment company. He has 15 years of experience and his company has transacted around 4,000 single-family homes. He’s based out of Utah, and the website is dfy-realestate.com. So Kevin, do you mind telling us some more about your background and what you’re focused on today?

Kevin Clayson: Yeah, sure man. I’ll be honest, I never thought I’d be here. I was not one of those kids growing up that was repackaging pixie stick powder and selling it to my friends at school, right? Like I was not entrepreneurial at all. I grew up in California, just right outside of Oakland, and I just grew up like a normal kid. My dad, he was always working sales jobs. I just thought, “No, I’m going to go to school. I don’t know what I’m going to do. I’m going to go get a good job somewhere”, right?

Well, I ended up graduating high school, went and lived overseas for a couple of years, came home, got married shortly after I came home. I was in my early 20s. And dude, three and a half years after getting married, I find out my wife is leaving me. It totally rocked my world… So I had this crazy thought. The thought was, “Oh my goodness. Maybe if I stop working retail and I go get a real job with my real college degree, maybe she’ll come back to me.” It didn’t work out, which was a good thing. But what I ended up doing is I ended up getting a job with Wells Fargo, doing mortgages, unsecured lines of credit, and doing auto loans. And the reason why that was such a crazy piece of the story is I had never even thought about setting foot in the financial realm whatsoever… And I found myself kind of liking the mortgage product. I’m like, “This is kind of cool.” I was kind of digging this idea of these amortization schedules, which I had never heard of before. And I was living in Utah at the time, I came back here to Utah to go to school, and here I am starting to do loans.

And so one day, I was prospecting. And I called up a buddy of mine who I knew was doing a bunch of real estate investing, and I’m like, “Hey, who does your mortgages?” And he’s like, “Well, I kind of have somebody… But dude, it’s been a long time. We should go to dinner.” Well, we go to dinner, and there were about four of us that decided to start a company to help people invest in real estate. So at the time – this was like 2007 or so when we started the company – the whole idea was we wanted to help people transact real estate instead of just pay for education. Because there’s awesome education out there, there’s awesome mentorship and programs. But we saw so many people that would spend tens of thousands of dollars to learn how to do real estate, but then would never go transact real estate. So we’re like, “Well, let’s fix that.” So we just started to help people do real estate. One of us would put a plan together, I’d do the mortgage, one of us would find the home, and then the other would help the person rent it out. And frankly, that’s what we’ve now been doing for 13 years. Now we’ve got clients from all over the country and we’ve done, as you mentioned, a good number of properties. So now, that’s what we focus on, helping hardworking Americans stay focused on what they’re best at, and then we help them by investing in simple and conservative single-family, residential real estate in some of the best markets in the country by doing all the work for them, so they can gain all the benefits from real estate without having to be an expert in without having to do all the work themselves.

Theo Hicks: Wow. It’s always interesting when I hear people’s conception stories starting business, and it always just seems to be, “Oh, I just met some dude I hadn’t talked to in years, and then we started a company together.”

Kevin Clayson: That’s the power of networking. Right?

Theo Hicks: Exactly. Yeah. I can’t tell you how many times I hear that… So it definitely reaffirmed the power of networking. Okay, we’ve got the four people, we’ve got the planner, the mortgage person, the home finder, and the person who rents it out. So Done For You Real Estate, obviously by the title, is a turnkey company.

Kevin Clayson: Yes, it is. It’s turnkey, but with a kind of like a little bit of a difference, right? So a lot of turnkey companies, if you go to the website, it’s “Hey, here’s properties, and it’s ready for you. Buy it.” That is not what we do. Everything we do is purely custom. We always specialize in a certain type of real estate, right? It’s got to check the boxes.

We have teams on the ground in multiple markets throughout the country. We get clients that come to us from all over the country that just wants to buy real estate. So we can help people buy real estate in states they don’t live in, assuming that the real estate is a good fit for them. So we take our clients to different states, into different teams, and look at different price points of properties, at different cash flow targets, based on what they’re trying to accomplish. Because for us, we try to help our clients replace their income, one property at a time.

So it’s very much like they’ve got money in a 401k or an IRA, or maybe they’ve got home equity, and they’re looking at it and they’re going “Oh my gosh, the math isn’t going to add up.” So then based on wherever they are and whatever assets they have available, we can create a custom income replacement plan, and then begin to transact real estate with them in an order that gets them to total income replacement, hopefully within the next 10 to 15 years. So it’s simply conservative long term real estate, but there’s a plan to it, so that you will organically grow the portfolio over time.

Theo Hicks: So when you say there’s a difference between what you guys do and what the traditional turnkey company does, it’s that you kind of enter into the process a step earlier, and rather than just presenting a bunch of properties, you start at what’s a good fit for them based on what they’re trying to accomplish and what they are capable of. So from my perspective, if I want to do this, how does that work? Am I paying you money to do the plan? Or is that something that kind of comes with assuming I’m going to buy a property? How do you know who to do this plan for? Is it anyone who comes to you, or do you need to see something first?

Kevin Clayson: No, what we do is we always do kind of an introductory call. So we’ll just talk to people and we’ll make sure that they’ve got assets and ability. And if they have assets and ability, and they think that they want to move forward with our company — we actually own a mortgage brokerage. We’ll do a full pre-approval in-house. We effectively underwrite the file in-house before we ever shop a lender, so we know how many pieces of real estate they can buy, which markets we ought to target for them, and what their cash flow projections, what they need to look like. Then we assign them an individual to work with them and introduce them to our teams in the market, help them evaluate properties, they get properties under contract, we go through and do the loan for them… And then where we make money is we charge a flat, per-property fee. It’s a separate buyer-paid commission, only charged at closing, of $4,995, on the closing documents. And we include that in all the calculations; we’re trying to determine whether or not ROIs are going to fit. We’re saying what’s our total out of pocket expenses, we’re going to take everything into consideration from the downpayment to what our fee is, to potential rehab expenses, and then we’re going to look at projected rents on the property, and projected appreciation, and then we’re going to just do the calculation and say, “Does this give us the kind of projected rate of returns that our clients are looking for?” Once we know that that’s the case and they put the property under contract, go through that process, we get them closed… We also own a little insurance company, so a lot of times we can do the policy for them. Then we’ve got our property managers that work with our teams in the market, that then find the tenants and rent them out.

Now, the other place where we differ, it’s not only the customization on the front end of putting a plan together, we don’t charge anything until someone closes on a home with us. We’re $0 until you close on the home; that means we’ve got to perform. And that, I think, is why our clients come back again, and again, and again. Because they’re not paying us an upfront fee. We just go to work and do the work.

So that kind of customization of showing them properties that are custom fit for what they’re trying to accomplish, that’s one aspect that’s unique. Another, the fact that they can work with our teams in multiple markets simultaneously, as opposed to just look at a list of homes and kind of pick the one they want best, combine that with the hand-holding we do throughout… And then where we really are quite different is most turnkey companies, once you close on the deal, it’s kind of like “Cool, good luck. I hope it rents well.” We continue to work with our clients, year after year. In fact, annually, we put together annual property and market reviews on their property. We pull the numbers, we see how it’s performing, we see what the market is looking like, so that they know when it’s time to refi, when it’s time to sell, when it’s time to just kind of hang back and hold tight.

So we continue to work with our clients year after year, because the way we’re successful as a company is when our clients do multiple transactions over a number of years. When they sell one, and 1031 exchange it into a couple more.  So that’s kind of the way that we approach it.

Theo Hicks: So it sounds like it’s pretty customizable, and I’m sure the answer is it depends, but what type of single-family homes are you targeting? Are they already fixed up and turnkey? Or are you finding distressed properties and then fixing them up? Or is it a combination of both?

Kevin Clayson: Good question. It does depend by market. The acquisition strategy depends on the market. But generally speaking, we’ve got some new construction products that we do in Orlando, because we work with builders out there. Indianapolis is another one of our markets. We’re largely looking at recently published MLS deals. Sometimes in Memphis – we do a lot there – we can get pre-MLS deals because we have a reputation and people kind of know. And then we’ve got a couple of other markets we’re opening later this year. So it totally does depend, but they’re always in the same box. Here’s the box – three or four-bed, two-bath, middle-class type neighborhoods, two-car garages, ranging in purchase price from $160,000 to $230,000. They’re going to cash flow anywhere from $300 to $600 net cash flow a month after you pay everything out. So it’s kind of like blue-chip real estate. Slightly higher quality. We’re not doing really low-end stuff, we’re not doing really high-end stuff. We’re frankly doing the kind of single-family residential real estate that is in the highest demand across the board.

And the reason that we do slightly nicer properties and slightly nicer neighborhoods – and these are neighborhoods that are primarily owner-occupied, neighborhoods with a handful of rentals, the reason that we do that is usually the tenants, they’re in a position where maybe after they rent from you for a few years, they may be the ones that buy your property; now you have a chance to sell that property, do the 1031 exchange to potentially grow your portfolio. So the quality of tenant that we attract by targeting these types of homes in these neighborhoods is a higher quality tenant, which means your rent is far more dependable, and usually, your properties are taken care of much better. So usually any of these properties across the board – we don’t do massively distressed properties. We’re not doing stuff where we got to go and throw 100 grand or 50 grand at it. It’s like a few thousand dollars, lipstick and paint, get it ready. Because usually by going and finding deals with our teams on the MLS – and our key is we just we are super zoned in on our neighborhoods in our zip codes and our criteria, so we can take action on deals quicker than a lot of people can, just because we have the buyer pre-approved ready to go. So we know we have everything in front of us to be able to go.

But what’s cool about that is if we get homes off the MLS, which we do a lot of the times, those are homes that were listed by a primary residential owner, so they usually try to get it pretty nice. They try to get it looking good. So that means we can go in and just do the most essential critical things that mean it’s going to rent as quickly as possible, for as much as possible.

Theo Hicks: And again, I know it depends, but what’s the range of rents on these types of homes? Just to make sure I’m understanding…

Kevin Clayson: So you’re probably between a thousand and 1,500.

Theo Hicks: Okay.

Kevin Clayson: That’s probably the range for the vast majority of them.

Theo Hicks: And then you mentioned the MLS and then developers. What else are you doing to find deals? Is it just MLS and developers, or are you doing other things as well?

Kevin Clayson: We used to do a ton of auctions, but auctions just aren’t quite what they were during the great recession. There’s a lot of institutional capital, it’s really hard to kind of compete at the auctions… And to get the stuff that we want to get, it’s just not always as available at the auction like it used to be. So it’s primarily MLS, new construction, and sometimes pre-MLS stuff. But we don’t do foreclosures, we don’t really do short sales or anything like that. It’s really just super-boring, straightforward real estate, that works, and works, and works.

Theo Hicks: Do you ever have an issue with the deal flow? Are you able to keep up with the demand of your clients pretty well just through those?

Kevin Clayson: Yeah, it’s awesome. We’re totally able to keep up. And the main reason is because we just have awesome teams. And we’ve got multiple people in our teams, on the ground, in those markets. So having developers and stuff that you can work with from a new construction standpoint – that can ease some of that. Because look, nobody else is looking at those deals, right? Those are things that we’re able to do because there’s effectively a portion of that subdivision earmarked for Done For You Real Estate clients, because we want it to be primarily owner-occupied in that neighborhood. But that gives us a little bit more flexibility, so we don’t necessarily have that supply problem, even if demand is high. And that’s been really awesome, for our clients, especially.

Theo Hicks: How many deals do you guys do on average per year?

Kevin Clayson: We’re not a huge company. We probably do between three and 500 deals a year. And those are purchase transactions. We’ll probably help our clients sell another 200 or so deals a year. It fluctuates, but that’s pretty common. And in fact, one kind of cool thing that we do is on our website – you can go to dfy-realestate.com – there’s a tab that says see the results. I don’t know anybody else that does this… We post our annual transaction reports. So you’ll be able to see every transaction we did. So we give these partial addresses; it’s not full addresses, but you can see what the purchase price was, how long it took to get the property rented out, what the cash flow was on the property… When our clients are listing and selling the property you can see how much equity they were able to capture when they sold the property. We put it out there by market, so that that way, we could just be super upfront and honest and stand on our track record and say, “Look, this is who we are, this is what we do.” And we like that, because we don’t know a lot of other people that do that. But we’re happy to, because we keep track of that anyway, so we might as well share it with the world.

Theo Hicks: Alright, Kevin, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?

Kevin Clayson: Oh, dude, that’s one of my favorite questions. Okay… Do you remember the movie called Moneyball? With Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill.

Theo Hicks: Yup.

Kevin Clayson: Okay, so I grew up just outside of Oakland. So I grew up an Oakland Athletics fan. And I didn’t know Moneyball was going on until the movie came out. And if you haven’t read the book, you should do that as well. But if you remember, what happened was the Oakland Athletics were trying to compete with the New York Yankees. The New York Yankees had like one of the largest payrolls in all of Major League. The book and movie specifically chronicle the 2001 season. And the A’s didn’t have that much money, but they had to compete with the big boys. So what they did is, instead of spending a ton of money on flashy, expensive players that maybe would fizzle out, maybe they go and get you a whole bunch of home runs, there’s a little bit of a gamble, a little bit of a risk, what they did is they bought dudes that could get on base; good at taking walks, good at bunting, good at hitting singles. And they called it Moneyball. It was the idea that they were paying for on-base percentage more than they were flashy, big-name players. The best advice I can give anybody when it comes to real estate, especially when you’re starting out, is don’t go try to hit home runs. Go play real-life Moneyball with real simple real estate. Hit real estate singles.

So so many of us want the big deal, right? We want to get up there, we’ve heard about how much money you can make in real estate, and we just get up there, we swing for the fence. And then you’ve got gurus out there that’ll say “Oh, whatever — you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.” Or “Babe Ruth, he struck out more than anybody. But he had more home runs than anybody.” And we use this thing that we kind of use as psychology to make somebody feel guilty if they don’t swing for the fences. But here’s the difference between you and me, maybe, and I don’t know about you, Theo, but me and Babe Ruth… The difference is this is – when Babe Ruth got up and he swung for the fence every time, if he struck out, he had another at-bat coming in an inning or two later.

For most folks that have worked really hard to get money saved up for their future, if they get to the plate and they swing and miss, they may not get another at-bat. So what we say is just go hit real estate singles. And that’s that simple and conservative real estate, right? Maybe you’re getting a 30-year fixed loan; you’re going to own it for three, or four, or five years before you sell it. It’s not going to be a traditional BRRRR property where you’re going to try to turn it over really quickly. You’re not going to try to target massive cap rates and massive cash flow. You’re not going to try to go and do a massive rehab. It’s like simple and conservative, super-boring, predictable, but it works. You hit enough singles with enough velocity over enough of a period of time, you win every single game you play. And that’s the way we approach real estate, and it’s what served us well, so that no matter what the world is doing and no matter how many financial crises we have to go through, our clients succeed, the company succeeds and we change people’s lives one property at a time.

Theo Hicks: That’s solid, solid advice. Alright, Kevin, are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?

Kevin Clayson: Let’s go!

Theo Hicks: Alright. First, a quick word from our sponsor.

Break: [00:20:24][00:21:12]

Theo Hicks: Okay, Kevin, what is the Best Ever book you’ve recently read? Besides Moneyball.

Kevin Clayson: I’ve got to give you two. One is the Go Giver by Bob Burgh and John David Mann. It’s a little business parable that’s game-changing. The other is a little bit more kind of a business book. It’s called Give and Take, by Adam Grant. Those books changed my perspective on everything.

Theo Hicks: If your business were to collapse today, what would you do next?

Kevin Clayson: It’s funny, I’m actually an author, and I do motivational speaking, and I go and I speak at middle schools and high schools and help kids know how to be happy in the middle of really tough circumstances… And I’ve got a book that’s sold in 26 countries throughout the world… So I would just double down and write more books and go speak at more schools and go try to serve more people that way if I wasn’t doing real estate,

Theo Hicks: What’s the book called?

Kevin Clayson: The books called Flip The Gratitude Switch.

Theo Hicks: Congrats on that success.

Kevin Clayson: Thanks.

Theo Hicks: Let’s see… What’s the best deal you’ve done with a client?

Kevin Clayson: It’s hard to say that there’s a single best deal that we’ve done with the client, because they all kill it. But here’s what I’ll tell you. I look at a deal that we did with a kid who had saved up money to get one little investment property before he went and served a church mission. This was back in 2009. The dude put 25 grand down, which was a 20% down payment on a property in Phoenix. He went and served God for two years, he came back he built 60 or $70,000 of equity, was able to refinance it out and go get a second property.

Then he was able to use the equity from those properties, and go buy another property or two, which funded his law school education at Harvard… And now he’s graduated from Harvard, and he’s got this real estate portfolio that could pay off all his student loans if he wanted to, but he just wants it to keep growing. So one simple deal with 20 grand down 10 years ago has transformed this kid’s life. That one I think about it a lot.

Theo Hicks: That’s a good Best Ever deal. What’s the Best Ever way you like to give back?

Kevin Clayson: It’s kind of a philosophy that I try to live by, and it’s not some sort of grand gesture, it’s this – it’s only four words long, it’s “Leave people better off.” And all I mean by that is you think of what this world would look like if every one of us walked into it every single day realizing that all we got to do is leave people better off than we find them. How much better would our marriages be? What would it be like in our relationships with our kids if inside of every small, tiny interaction, we tried to leave them better off? And then what about our clients? And what about the stranger that we meet at the store? What would this world look like if we didn’t try to compete and shout louder than one another, but we just had to leave people better off? So my little contribution is every day, in every way I possibly can, inside of every single interaction I have, I try to leave people better off than I found them.

Theo Hicks: And then lastly, what is the Best Ever place to reach you, and anything else you want to mention before we wrap up?

Kevin Clayson: I want to mention that you’re awesome. Thank you for having me on the show. The show was awesome. If you’re listening, you’re awesome. And the best place to find us is dfy-realestate.com. And also – listen, if you’re listening to this and you’re a podcast fan, we actually have a podcast called Replace Your Income, where we go through our strategy, and go through deals, and talk about what we do with our clients. It’s not nearly as good as this show, but if you’ve got extra time on your run or walking your dog and you don’t have anything better to listen to, give Replace Your Income and listen. And otherwise, social media is always a good place to find us, too. Done For You Real Estate USA.

Theo Hicks: Perfect, Kevin. Well, thank you for joining us today. I can definitely tell you do those kinds of talks, you’re a very good speaker and very animated.

Kevin Clayson: My hands, man. I know we’re like on a zoom call and you’re probably getting motion sick. My wife always makes fun of me. She’s like, “What would you do if you had to keep your hands in your pocket?” I’m like, “I don’t think I can speak if I can’t move my hands. I don’t think it’s possible.”

Theo Hicks: But I can see the passion for sure.

Kevin Clayson: Thanks, man.

Theo Hicks: Thanks for joining us today. I enjoyed this conversation a lot. And really what it kind of comes down to, your Best Ever advice really summarizes everything we talked about, which is you don’t need to hit the grand slam, do the crazy deal that makes you a million dollars or $100,000. It’s just consistent, simple deals over a long period of time. As you mentioned, you work with people to reach your financial goals in 10 to 15 years, not in a week, or a year, or two years even. So in order to do this, you talked about doing the single-family rentals, you were very specific on the type of property that you target…

We talked about how your company is unique, in that it essentially starts earlier on in the process, and doesn’t just give them a menu of roles to choose from and then say “Alright, good luck.” You work with them from the beginning to figure out what their goals are, and then you will match the correct property type and market for their goals. And then you’ll help them through the entire transaction process. And on the back end, you have the property management in place, you do the annual market property reports to help them sell it as well… So it truly is a full service done for you real estate business.

Something else interesting you said that I liked was you focus on following the simplicity, focus on the MLS, as well as new builds. And you focus on new builds because you want to focus on the owner-occupied areas. Because you’ll be able to not only get renters faster, but you might also have the possibility of selling it to that renter on the back end, since most people own the homes that live there. So it kind of increases the chances of you selling the property, or at the very least increase the chance of you selling it faster, once you decide to go time. Plus, you don’t won’t worry about getting the tenant out of there and all that other stuff that delays the sales process.

Kevin Clayson: It makes real estate more liquid when you do that, at the end of the day.

Theo Hicks: Exactly. And then I loved all of your lightning round responses as well. So Kevin, thanks again so much for joining us today. Best Ever listeners, as always, thank you for listening. Have a Best Ever day and we’ll talk to you tomorrow.

Kevin Clayson: See you, guys.

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JF1579: Scaling To 75 Units Using Creative Financing with Jason & Carrie Harris

Jason and Carrie are partners in life and partners in real estate. Together they have built a big portfolio of real estate, comprised of mostly small multifamily buildings. They have also been able to acquire a lot of them through seller financing. Hear how they are able to find and close on so many seller financed deals. If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!


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Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff. With us today, Jason and Carrie Harris. How are you two doing?

Carrie Harris: We’re doing good!

Jason Harris: We’re doing great!

Joe Fairless: I’m glad to hear. A little bit about Jason and Carrie – they control around 11 million dollars in real estate with one million dollars in gross scheduled income. They own 75 units and bought most through creative financing. We’ll get into that. They’re based in Lindon, Utah. With that being said, do you two wanna give the Best Ever listeners a  little bit more about your background and your current focus?

Jason Harris: Yeah, thank you, Joe. This is Jason speaking here. We’ve lived in Utah – or I have – about ten years. I’m a financial advisor, I do financial services, but I actually started in real estate in 2010. I became an advisor in 2012, and have been blown away by the returns and just benefits real estate has provided us from a passive income standpoint and tax strategy… So I fell in love with it in 2010 and we’ve just continued to grow since then, and wish we would have grown even faster than maybe we have.

Joe Fairless: Cool. So let’s talk about the 11 million dollars that I have in your bio. I read you control 11 million dollars in real estate… So what does that comprise of?

Jason Harris: Almost all of that is multifamily units, two to four units or buildings. We have about 24 buildings right now that we’ve purchased, and most all of them are in that two to four unit range, duplexes and fourplexes.

Joe Fairless: I did not see that coming… Wow. You have 11 million dollars in two to four unit buildings. That’s unique. Why did you take that approach, versus buying in bulk?

Carrie Harris: When we started out – we started when we were in college, and we didn’t have a lot of money, or maybe even the know-how to buy more in bulk… So we actually started out owner-occupying a fourplex, and I think that’s when we started our focus on small multifamily units, instead of larger apartment complexes.

Jason Harris: And to complement that, Joe, I think it had everything to do with financing. We didn’t have a lot of money. The FHA loan we learned about, where you could do as little as 3,5% down, and we barely were able to qualify for it while I was going to school. That set us on a path where we realized “Wow, multifamily units cash-flow is better than  that of single-families from our market, or at least in general what our market does.” But also, the financing terms are much better when you’re purchasing property four units or less, versus five units or more… And due to not having a lot of capital in the beginning, not having strong incomes, that was going to be our only option, unless we could come up with other creative strategies.

Joe Fairless: So at the beginning you had little capital, you started in college, you started early… When I do the math, I take 11 million, and say you’ve got 24 buildings, that’s 458k a property… That’s a lot per property. They’re averaging about 460k per property, valuation?

Jason Harris: Yeah. Fourplexes in our market will go anywhere from a low end of 500k up to as high as 850k. Now, this is current numbers.

Joe Fairless: Sure.

Jason Harris: Back then it may have been 300k. We’ve had some good appreciation over the last 8 or 9 years, but duplexes – yeah, anywhere from high 200k to even as high as 600k if it’s a really big six-bedroom four-bath duplex per side. But that’s not very common. Usually, it’s anywhere from high 200k to maybe low 400k.

Joe Fairless: That’s great. I’m not familiar with where Lindon is relative to the big cities in Utah, assuming that Lindon is not a big city… How close is the biggest city, and what is it, to where you’re at?

Jason Harris: Orem comprises of maybe 190k-200k people. The metropolitan of Utah County is over a million, but we’re about an hour South of Salt Lake City and that metropolitan area as well.

Joe Fairless: Okay, got it. 24 properties – how are you financing them?

Jason Harris: Great question. Well, we started out owner-occupying. We bought a fourplex in 2010 with and FHA loan, 3,5% down, fortunately, got a first-time homebuyer credit, got prorated rent, security deposits and a month and a half of not paying a mortgage, so all the capital we put into it we could have back in two months… That’s when I started learning more about the velocity of money and how if we can minimize how much money we put into a deal and get that money back out as soon as possible and retain the asset and help that asset cashflow better and better over time, I can continue to scale and build and buy more without having capital be my biggest hindrance from buying more.

So that was our biggest goal – to get into a position to buy the next duplex or the next fourplex, until our family grew to where we didn’t wanna do that to our kids anymore. So we started with single-family homes, with legal accessory apartments, so that we could still take the rent income from the basement to offset our mortgage, and allow us to continue to invest and build.

Joe Fairless: You started with single-family homes with legal — what?

Jason Harris: Legal accessory apartments, where we could take a part of our home – the basement – and instead of occupying it ourselves, rent it out to another family.

Joe Fairless: Okay, so there’s gotta be a separate entrance…?

Jason Harris: Correct. And that was our primary focus – to take on a $1,500 mortgage, but get $1,200/month in rent from the basement. Now my out-of-pocket expense from my day job is $300, as long as we keep it filled. That allows us to save some of our hard-earned income or our passive income from real estate to buy and acquire more property.

Joe Fairless: Okay. So basically you started with the fourplex, the first one, with an FHA loan, and then you held on to it… Have you done cash-out refinances, or it was new equity coming from the full-time job that you both have?

Jason Harris: Correct. While we lived in that first fourplex, I was new to this, but I would do what I could to try to improve the value of the property, so that I could increase the rents from my neighbors and tenants. So as we did that, equity was built where we were able to refinance out of that FHA loan and into a normal, conventional loan. There are portfolio products in our market that helped, but there was at least 25% equity where I could use that equity as the down payment, refinance out of the FHA and then have it available again to buy another property with an FHA loan. We did that twice; we bought the first one and then we used an FHA one more time.

Joe Fairless: So you only did cash-out refinance twice on all your stuff?

Jason Harris: No FHA loans specifically. You can only have one, unless there’s a qualifying reason.

Joe Fairless: Oh, right.

Jason Harris: We found out in our market there were other lenders that would allow for as little as 10% down on multifamily investing if you were owner-occupying, so we took advantage of some of those products as well. But eventually, we found other ways to not have to owner-occupy property anymore. We had enough capital or income from our rentals where we could build up enough to just buy more multifamilies without having to live in them.

Joe Fairless: And what were those loan programs?

Jason Harris: The ones that we’ve used most here require 15% down for up to a fourplex. So instead of doing the typical 25% down or more, we’ve been able to acquire multifamily properties for 15% down or less.

Joe Fairless: If the equity for those down payments comes from the W-2 job or the company that you have…

Jason Harris: It could be from that. However, a lot of it comes from cash-out refinances and improving the value of our properties and taking the equity from those to acquire more… But obviously, it’s a combination of all of those things.

Joe Fairless: And with those cash-out refinances, a pro is you have that money in your bank account and then can reinvest it; a con is it increases the amount of debt you have on the property, so your cashflow is decreased. How do you balance that whenever you’re approaching your investing?

Jason Harris: Correct, and often that was the biggest indicator – could I do better with the return of equity by taking it out of the property and putting it into another one, knowing that it would impact that cashflow? That was often taken into account and often the interest rate was higher, and since it’s a larger balance, obviously the debt load or service was increased as well… But we were improving the value of the properties and increasing the income along the way, so we could absorb a higher monthly mortgage and still cash-flow. So that ultimately was my main driver – making sure that we stayed within certain ratios.

I like to have 55% or less total debt to income on all my properties, but I mainly care about that from a global portfolio standpoint. So I look at all of my properties separately, but I use an Excel spreadsheet to make sure that the combination of them stays within 55% or less. Then we try to have all of our expenses be 25% or less.

When I say 55%, I should say that’s including insurance and property taxes; so principal and interest is less than 50%, and then the expenses are roughly 30% or less. So as long as I have a 20% or better profit margin per property and globally, that’s kind of what my aim target is. I am working, now that we’ve scaled and have a lot more property, to get that number closer to 75% or less total.

Joe Fairless: And the loans that you all have on these properties – are they portfolio loans that have a balloon payment due at a certain period of time?

Jason Harris: Great question. This particular one does not. It’s a 30-year amortization.

Joe Fairless: That’s nice.

Jason Harris: Yeah, it’s a great product, and there’s a couple different lenders who are able to offer it. Not all the time though have we had to use the portfolio product. Often times those types of products limit you to how many you can have. Some of our projects made sense where there was enough equity to just do a rate and term refinance or a cash-out refinance using traditional loan products, just doing the normal conventional loan at 75% loan-to-value or better. So only certain times we would use the portfolio product, and most of the time it was to acquire property, so that we’d be able to take title and ownership with as little money of our own out of pocket as possible.

Joe Fairless: How did you find the lenders doing that 15% program that you two have used a lot? Or — excuse me, is it 15% or 10%? Yeah, 15%.

Jason Harris: There was a product, it did change, but it used to be 10% down, and we used that one for a couple of years, until they realized that product was too good, and then it did change to a 15% down option… But that 15% right now is 4.75%. If you were to compare other lenders who require 25% down, they may quote you at 5.25%, 5.25%… So not often are you able to find a lender where you can put less down and get a better interest rate. So we’ve been able to maintain the cashflow that we’re trying to get without having to compromise cashflow.

Joe Fairless: How did you find them?

Jason Harris: We were in a real estate investment group, and we networked with other investors who were like-minded, trying to build and grow, and it was during a transaction that we found out someone who was buying a property for us, in order for us to take that equity and put it in a 1031 exchange to buy something bigger, that we found out about the product of what they were using, and obviously we were fascinated by it, so we wanted to learn more.

Joe Fairless: Do you two self-manage?

Carrie Harris: We don’t, not at all.

Jason Harris: We started out that way.

Carrie Harris: We started out managing, but currently we don’t manage any of our properties. We have a full-time manager for all of our properties.

Joe Fairless: Were you emotionally scarred from when you did it?

Carrie Harris: [laughs] Not at all, we were more relieved. It’s a lot of work to keep acquiring properties and also managing them yourself. We realized kind of early on that if we wanted to keep growing, we had to give something up, and we can’t do everything. Our time is limited, so if we can hire out the management, we can focus on acquiring good properties; that was kind of our thought behind it.

Jason Harris: We learned later too, Joe, that by hiring family members who were in lower income levels there’s great tax benefits… So we actually have a number of our family members who work with us or for us in different capacities. My parents actually help us too with the property management, so… They do that full-time.

Joe Fairless: So your parents are the ones managing it, or do you have another company? Or is it a combo?

Jason Harris: Yeah, the long-term goal too is we’re starting our own property management company, but my parents manage all my properties currently. It evolved to that, it didn’t start out that way… But now that we have a number of units, they now do that for us full-time.

Joe Fairless: Any tips for building a business with family?

Jason Harris: Oh, goodness… Yeah, that could be a whole episode or more… [laughter] Trust and honesty, which there is, and separating business from family events obviously is very important. I think for my family and my personality that that’s easy enough to do. It is difficult at times, especially when things aren’t going as well as planned, but all in all there’s great benefits, because who do you trust more than your parents? And it’s worked out very good; I hope it’s worked out really good for them as well. We’re excited about the long-term benefits that could be there as well, and doing it that way.

Joe Fairless: What’s an example of when something didn’t go as well as planned in this business?

Jason Harris: Well, it’s often not necessarily one person’s fault, but in our particular example, just something that comes to mind – there’s some learning curve where there wasn’t a clear expectation of what was needing to be done, and my mom took action on something that she thought was best, but we found out later it’s not legal, and you can’t do that as a property manager; there’s guidelines that you have to follow… So that comes back to either where I’ve gotten a little small lawsuit, or just had fines or penalties…

We’ve had some big surprises where water lines under properties broke, and there’s a big leak… Those end up being really cost-intensive. Things like that come to mind, but you learn from those, and you get better, and have better systems in place.

Joe Fairless: What is the biggest challenge that you two have had growing the portfolio?

Jason Harris: I think the biggest one usually is finding capital. You can always find good deals; it is becoming harder, I think, in our market, but having capital, even with our approach of minimizing how much we put into our property out of our own funds, every single time you buy property and you put capital to work there, now you’re feeling cash-poor again, especially if you’re wanting to maintain reserves for each financed property you have that the banks require… So even if there may be assets sitting there, they have to be there to take care of the other properties that you own. So lack of capital I think is always the thing that keeps you from growing.

Joe Fairless: And some would say it’s lack of good deals, or finding deals. It seems like you two have a knack for finding the deals… There’s always a challenge, in anyone’s business, that’s for sure. It’s just a matter of skillsets, and where you live, and how resourceful you are in certain areas.

Jason Harris: I agree, but I think many have a hard time seeing the highest and best use of property. Just because a property is performing a certain way, in my mind doesn’t mean that it has to always be like that… And I think we’ve done a pretty good job of identifying properties that have great value-add opportunity. I like to buy off current numbers, but I love to look at what the property potentially could do. And when you start finding ways to increase the income from that property and what it could generate, it allows you to find a lot more deals and not have to sit on the sidelines for so long.

Joe Fairless: What’s an example of a creative way you’ve found income or value-add opportunity where perhaps someone else might have overlooked it?

Jason Harris: There’s a variety of things… Parking is good. We’ve been able to go from families to renting to singles, and renting per bedroom, per room. I could take an apartment that maybe is giving me $900/month per apartment and rent it out for $1,300/month per apartment by just going from families to singles. And that’s not a really big change, other than maybe if you have to furnish the apartment, which I’d be willing to do if I put 3k into the furnishings and I get $400 more a month. That’s 160% return on my investment. So those are great options.

You sometimes have enough land on the property where you can add storage units. Bigger families often always need more storage, so you can put a $1,200 storage unit in the back and rent it out for $75/month. That’d be $900 annually – there you go again, there’s a 75% cash-on-cash return; another great return on your money.

You could add carports – that’s a cheap way to add value, where they don’t have to scrape their ice and snow during the winter, and have the sun [unintelligible [00:20:47].09] inside their car, so people are willing to pay more for that.

Let me think of some other ones we do…

Carrie Harris: Renovating…

Jason Harris: Yeah, sometimes it’s sweat equity items – just making the place look nice from the outside. Cleaning up the garbage and trash, making the yard look nicer, and sometimes putting flower beds… We often try to paint our exterior of the building, which doesn’t often cost too much. All of those things could potentially be done for 3k or less, and now people have a lot more pride in where they live, and maybe willing to spend an extra $50-$75/month per apartment for that nicer place that they can be proud of living in.

All of those can be great returns on your money, and sometimes there’s just absentee landlords that aren’t aware of what the current market rents demand and what you could be getting, and I love potentially buying property from those, because they may be at $700/month, but I know they should be at $1,000… So after I take over and add a little value, I’m raising rents to what I think the market would pay for what it is.

Joe Fairless: Based on your experience, what’s your best real estate investing advice ever?

Jason Harris: This isn’t something I learned myself, but I realized I’ve always believed it – minimizing how much of your own money you use to acquire as much real estate as possible, as soon as possible. In other words, buy as much real estate as you can, while using as little of your own money.

Joe Fairless: Very straightforward, and you have talked in detail about how you two have done that up to  this point, so no follow-up question there from me. We’re gonna do a lightning round. Are you two ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?

Jason Harris: Absolutely.

Joe Fairless: Alright. First, a quick word from our Best Ever partners.

Break: [00:22:38].08] to [00:23:55].09]

Joe Fairless: Okay, best ever book you’ve recently read?

Jason Harris: Tax-Free Wealth by Tom Wheelwright. There are some great golden nuggets in there.

Joe Fairless: Did you get the idea of hiring your parents through that book?

Jason Harris: Yes. I’m reading it for the third time. There’s some great depreciation credit benefits, especially now since the Trump tax laws have gone into effect… Accelerated depreciation and hiring family members, including my children – all of those are great strategies to minimize your taxes.

Joe Fairless: What’s a mistake that you’ve made on a transaction that we haven’t talked about already?

Jason Harris: Carrie and I were talking about that… We’ve made a lot of mistakes, but none of them that have been really that big for us. I honestly feel like our biggest mistake is not taking action as soon as we would have liked. We’ve been in such a great economy and market of appreciation… It took us four years from 2010 to buy our next property, and we always wish that we would have been buying during those times, when prices were so much cheaper.

I feel like our biggest mistake – and many’s biggest mistake – was waiting too long to get started and to get involved and to start doing and start learning.

Joe Fairless: Best ever way you like to give back?

Jason Harris: Carrie and I have a great time taking younger couples out to dinner and sharing our story of what we’ve done. We do a lot of education events and seminars, both in our home and at local restaurants, and recently we’ve had a lot of people ask, so we’re working on writing a book now, to share different ideas and things that we’ve done to get to this point in our life.

Joe Fairless: And how can the Best Ever listeners learn more about what you two are doing?

Jason Harris: Shoot us an e-mail at creativegainsllc@gmail.com, or our website – we have different events or seminars that we offer: creativegainsrealestate.com.

Joe Fairless: Jason and Carrie, thank you for being on the show, talking about the portfolio that you two have built, how you approach the financing part, the equity part, and just the business model too, as well as adding value. I’m glad we got to the ways that you all add value: renting the bedrooms out versus the actual unit, adding storage units on the property, adding carports, and then doing the exterior renovations and cleanup, as well as  — I’m sure you do interior renovations, too.

Thanks for being on the show. I hope you two have  a best ever day, and we’ll talk to you soon.

Jason Harris: Thank you, Best Ever listeners, and thanks, Joe.

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JF1436: Do You Need Fix & Flip Money? Ryan Wright Has You Covered

As CEO of Do Hard Money, Ryan spends a lot of time with investors, especially beginners, securing financing for their deals. He loves working with the investor who are tackling their first deal, but works with others as well. Hear how he may be able to help your business by tuning in! If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!


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Ryan Wright Real Estate Background:

  • CEO of DoHardMoney.com, author of 3 books, investing in real estate since age of 21
  • Funds fix & flips, refinance, & buy and hold loans in 34 states
  • Say hi to him at https://www.dohardmoney.com/best-ever
  • Based in West Jordan, UT
  • Best Ever Book: Atlas Shrugged

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Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff. With us today, Ryan Wright. How are you doing, Ryan?

Ryan Wright: Fantastic! How are you, Joe?

Joe Fairless: I am doing well, and I’m glad to hear you’re doing fantastic. A little bit about Ryan – he is the CEO of DoHardMoney.com. He is the author of three books, and has been investing in real estate since the age of 21. He funds fix and flips, refinance and buy and hold loans in 34 states, and you can say hi to him at his website, DoHardMoney.com. Based in West Jordan, UT. With that being said, Ryan, will you give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and your current focus?

Ryan Wright: Yeah, absolutely. I kind of grew up in the real estate business a little bit. I think my grandfather was flipping homes before it was even popular down in Southern California, and I kind of grew up in the rental business.

I got into a traditional agency, and then got into flipping, and got into lending, so now we kind of do all the aspects of real estate investing, with our primary focus being in lending, in doing fix and flips and those types of deals.

Joe Fairless: Why is that the focus, versus other types of ways you could be involved in real estate?

Ryan Wright: Great question, Joe. I think the big reason is I love helping people get their first deal under their belt. We have a niche for that. I mean, we can help experienced investors, but we really have a good niche for helping newer investors get started.

I just remember what it was like being a young investor, trying to get funding for my first deal, how difficult it was… And if it wasn’t for a guy named Dan that I ran into and met just through a referral, I don’t know if I would have gotten my first deal done… So I just really have a passion of seeing somebody — helping them get through that hurdle of that first deal, because I think it’s one of the hardest, and once you do that, it’s a lot easier.

Joe Fairless: From a business standpoint, in order for you to stay in business, you’ve got to mitigate the risk of this beginner defaulting, so what are you doing to do that when you qualify the individual?

Ryan Wright: Great question. First and foremost, for us, we’re really looking at the property having a lot of value. We scrutinize the value of the property pretty heavily, because we feel like if we’re into a deal right, even if our customer, our borrower has concerns or troubles, we can usually come out good, as long as we’re into a decent property with good values.

So we’re really critical on the values, probably more than other places, and that’s how we’re able to work with first-timers. And again, we can work with experienced investors well, but as far as first-timers, I think scrutinizing the value is probably one of those.

Also, we give a lot of support. We have project managers that help through the construction phase, before we even close on the loan go through the bid with the general contractor and the borrower, make sure the pricing is right… So I would say values correctly and construction pre-closing work, and post-closing work is really the key to us being successful.

Joe Fairless: Specifically, what value of the property do you need to see?

Ryan Wright: We’re really looking at that after-repair-value being solid, meaning we need three good comparables that are active and three good comparables that are sold, that are all within a mile radius, hopefully closer, that are solid.

We don’t like the speculation, “We might be able to get this higher.” We basically use the three lowest actives and the three lowest solds values that are in move-in-ready, good condition, rehab condition. We won’t use the highest. So we start at the lowest and work our way up and say “Would our property be in the same or better condition than this one?” “Yes.” Go to the next comp. “Are we same or better?” “Yes.” Go to the next one, and then we basically use three actives and three solds.

So I think for us, we’re using the lower of the good, move-in-ready, rehabbed properties, not the most expensive. I think it’s a mistake a lot of new investors make as they’re finding the most property out there and saying “My house is gonna be worth that” and they fall in love with that one comparable… It leads to a lot of problems, frankly.

Joe Fairless: So you look at the three lowest active and the three lowest sold, within ideally a one-mile radius… But then do you look at the amount of dollars that they’ll have into the deal relative to the overall value? Do you have some sort of equation there?

Ryan Wright: Yeah, absolutely. Really, our goal is to not be more than 70% of the after-repair-value minus the cost of repair. So if you can keep everything under that 70% minus the repairs – you need about 30% margin plus the repair cost. That’s kind of the target.

We’re also looking at other things, Joe. We’re looking at crime, we’re looking at the neighborhood… We’re looking at some other factors as well. And again, it’s more on the first-timer or the newer deals where we’ve gotta be more critical, to protect not only our risk, but also the borrower’s risk or our customer’s risk as well.

We kind of look at ourselves as the last line of defense. Once somebody’s looked at everything, then let us take a look and we can let you know what our thoughts are, and making sure…

And when we say the lowest, I wanna clarify – it’s not the cheapest house on the market, it’s the cheapest house that’s gonna be in comparable condition to what your house is gonna be once it’s fixed up. So it’s not like the lowest house, it’s the lowest that’s in good, move-in-ready, rehabbed type of condition. That’s what we’re looking for.

Joe Fairless: Will you elaborate more on “We give a lot of support”? You mentioned construction… I think you said pre and post, but will you just elaborate on that part?

Ryan Wright: Yeah, we’ve been doing this for quite some time, and one of the things that we’ve found is we’ve gotten pretty good at trying to make sure we’re getting ourselves into good deals. Sometimes we make mistakes and sometimes the borrower makes mistakes, but for the biggest part of that we do really well at that.

So the other aspect that we really got into several years ago is we were good on the values, but then we found the construction was having problems all the time.

One of the things that typically happens to a newer investor is they’re really  price-shopping. They’re looking for the cheapest construction price, which that may be good as long as that actually happens, as long as the contractor follows through. We’ve found a lot of times either they would select a contractor, or subcontractors, or handymen, and they would get into the project and then the contractors say “We need 20k more” and they didn’t have the budget for that, and they get themselves into problems.

So what we did is we have professional project managers. These guys went to school for construction project management, or have owned construction companies, pretty legitimate… So what they do is when the borrower selects a contractor or who’s gonna do the repairs, they break that out item by item, and then our project manager talks to the contractor and talks to the borrower and looks at that bid to make sure those are fair prices, that they’re not too high and that they’re not too low, and then turns that in to our compliance or underwriting department. That way, we can make sure “Hey, this is over-bid/This is under-bid”, and then they’re also looking at the full scope of the property to make sure nothing’s being missed, as well as afterwards, once it closes, they’re meeting with that contractor on a weekly basis, they’re going through and saying what got done, what didn’t get done, to make sure the project continues on.

So we’ve been able to solve a lot of the problems that most newer investors have in dealing with contractors by being very proactive.

Joe Fairless: Oh yeah, that’s really helpful. Do you also look at the contracts that the borrower has with the contractor?

Ryan Wright: We don’t necessarily give legal advice on that, Joe, but we’ve got a few things we make recommendations on. One of the tips that I really like to have is make sure you have a solid deadline of completion. One of the things we like to do is give the contractor a bonus for early completion and a penalty for late completion.

We basically say “Whatever your loan is, whatever your daily interest – we typically double that. If you’re late, it’s $50/day, but if you get done early, we’ll give you $100/day.” It gives some motivation to the contractor to complete, both the carrot and the stick.

Joe Fairless: And any other tips with the contractor contracts? I know that you’re not an attorney, but just any best practices that you’ve come across?

Ryan Wright: The biggest thing people do is they get broad bids. The guy goes through the property and says “Oh, I’ll do it all for $30,000.” They make a relationship with the contractor, they fall in love with him and say “Okay, $30,000.”

We have a multi-page form that goes through line by line by line, and we break everything out line by line… Because one of the problems that happens is if they say “We’ll paint and sheetrock the whole house for $3,000”, when they get part of it done, they wanna get some of their money, but you don’t know which part you should pay them, and then you can get into a situation where you overpaid, you’ve paid too much, and then if they don’t finish the work, you can get yourself in trouble.

So we really recommend, number one, have an agreement or a contract, number two, document item by item what’s gonna be done and what the prices are by item, so if they finish one thing but don’t finish another, you can pay them appropriately… And it also helps if you have any problems with contractors down the road, to have that documented, as well as having early completion.

The other one I would just say is making sure they’re responsible for their insurance or they carry insurance, if you had a slip and fall or some type of event on the property. Those would be my three most important things.

Joe Fairless: And what about paying them early for supplies, before they do anything?

Ryan Wright: Yeah, the way that we do that is we give a little bit of money upfront for the job, kind of to grease the wheels… If the project is $30,000 total, what we do is give a 10% up front to get the project going, and then we do draws. We do draws based upon line items, and based upon those line items, it has to be 100% complete. And what we mean by 100% complete – that faucet can’t be leaky, the knobs have to be installed, 100%. There’s no tolerance to not being done. “We’ll install the doors tonight.” “Nope, it doesn’t count.”

So we do that, and then we do it on a draw schedule. Some of the contractors will float the money, some of our borrowers will pay some money to work things out with contractors… I think the important thing for us is if they know the money is sitting in an Escrow account and just waiting for them based upon that, then we get more contractors willing to say “Okay, I’ll take less upfront”, but materials and paying upfront is a big deal; we hear horror stories all the time about that, and people getting taken advantage of… So it’s a difficult thing, but I think managed properly, you can make it work.

Joe Fairless: Outside of working with contractors, what are some mistakes you see beginning fix and flippers make when they’re assessing an opportunity?

Ryan Wright: Well, I think the number one mistake people make is they fall in love with a deal, and they put blinders on and they’re not critical of the deal.

You’ve gotta put on the hat and look at it as if you were the end buyer, and say “Would I rather have this house versus this house?” Simply over-paying for the property or falling in love with the deal is probably my number one, along with not valuing the property appropriately.

I’d also just have to say a lot of newer investors are trying to buy properties that are listed on the multiple listing, and that’s the most difficult, lowest margin, frustrating lane… So not going after what we call off-market properties, and finding properties that have less competition, less people. It’s huge to find better opportunities.

Joe Fairless: You mentioned comps earlier, and you said it’s a comparable condition to your property once your property is fixed up… What are some things to look for in a comparable property? For example, does the number of bedrooms matter, number of bathrooms matter? Does the backyard matter? What needs to be the same and what can be different?

Ryan Wright: I think the answer is yes, yes, yes… But what you’ve gotta do is you’ve gotta be able to objectively make those decisions. What I tell people is to be within 10%. If the square footage is 2,000 square feet, you wanna be from 1,800 to 2,200 square feet when you’re choosing your comparables. Then as far as bedrooms, I say within 10% – you’re basically one bedroom, give or take… But then there’s what’s called adjustments. Then we actually have to make adjustments based on the comparables.

If mine has five bedrooms and yours has six bedrooms, I have to make an adjustment. That adjustment is gonna be area by area – what’s it worth to somebody to have an extra bedroom. Sometimes that can be substantial; that can be 15k, 20k, 30k, and sometimes that could only be 5k difference. So you’ve gotta be a little bit of an investigator and understanding…

If you really wanna get good at this, there’s actually a database that you can look up of what the average cost of bedrooms and different areas, and get an idea for that…

But I think what’s most important is rather than choosing comps that have big differences, try and get comps that don’t have any differences. The best thing is if you have multiple houses across the street that are the exact same, that sold, that you can use as a comparable… But that isn’t always the case.

The other big problem people are constantly doing is they’re jumping what we call natural barriers. You might have a street that’s a busy street. We have a street here locally, 7th East. If you’re on the East side of 7th East, your property is worth 30k-40k more than if you’re on the West side of 7th East, but they’re still both within the mile radius… So there’s these natural barriers where it’s like, “No, this is not a comp.” If you’re choosing one on the other side of the tracks, it’s not a good comp, even though it may be within the mile.

Joe Fairless: How do you all, as individuals who I believe are all in Utah, unless some work remotely, but still – unless you’re in that market, how do you know what those natural barriers are per market?

Ryan Wright: We’re in the local markets is really what it comes down to. We’ve got people on the ground in all of the different markets, that actually work for us, that are going to take a look at the properties, and they know those natural barriers and boundaries, as well as the values, as well as the comparables… And we hire them to go look at a property.

We also get pretty good at it because we see so many deals; we’re constantly looking at deals and we have a pretty good flavor for that… But being a local is huge for us, because we have a local presence everywhere that we’re currently lending.

Joe Fairless: What about if you don’t have comps within a mile radius? Either it’s a more remote area, or the market’s going one direction or another and there’s just not a lot of other comps?

Ryan Wright: Well, I think that’s gonna come down to your experience level as an individual investor. For a brand new investor, I’d probably shy away from that. You kind of have two different issues there – you’ve got your rural properties, and in some cases we can help out on some of those rural properties as long as we can expand some searches and that there’s enough supply and demand in the area… But that’s more difficult, if you’re dealing with more of a rural area.

Secondly, the other problem you’ve got is changes or fluctuations in the marketplace, and what we’re gonna be looking for is demand – is there enough buying and selling actually happening in that area? And then secondly, maybe you expand out a little bit, but am I gonna be able to find good comps? Adjustments – what they’re called when you’re comparing a 3-bedroom house to a 5-bedroom house, those adjustments, that’s where you can really get yourself in trouble, because in the end it’s an educated guess, and sometimes it’s less educated than other times… And it really comes down to what the end buyer is willing to pay for the property.

An appraisal or anything else is simply a guess as to what they’re hoping someone would be willing to pay for that property, and you don’t know until you actually get in the deal and find a buyer on that.

So those are two things that I’d be cautious with as you’re dealing with a newer investor. A more experienced investor should be able to have a better feel for values, and if it’s a risk that they’re willing to take… But the less information, the more risk.

Joe Fairless: From a financial standpoint, thinking about a lending business versus you doing the fix and flips, if you were to scale a fix and flip business, why does it financially make more sense for you to do lending versus the fix and flips?

Ryan Wright: I don’t know if it does… [laughs] But I just have a passion for helping people doing deals, getting started, putting deals together. And we do some fix and flips, we’ll do some deals here and there, so we’re not out of the marketplace in that realm…

For me I don’t think it’s a financial thing. It’s more of a lifestyle thing. It’s easier to have my money working for me than having the projects and some of those types of things… So I think it’s maybe a little bit easier to scale and maybe a little bit easier on the lifestyle than being in there.

I think if you’re really in your rehabs, you’ve gotta be on top of them. You’ve gotta be in there all the time, you’ve gotta do those things… Which I really enjoy the transformation process, but I think financially — it’d probably be better to be flipping a bunch of properties, but I just get a lot of satisfaction out of helping… There’s nothing like having somebody say “You changed my life. I just got a huge payday. I implemented the stuff you told me to do, I found that property, you guys got the money for me, we just closed, I just got a check…” That’s just super-rewarding for me, and I’m in a position where I can do what I love to do, so this is the direction that we’re heading down.

Joe Fairless: I love it. And just so the Best Ever listeners who are listening who are doing these types of deals, so they know what type of fees to expect on your loans… What are they?

Ryan Wright: It’s gonna vary based upon several factors. It’s gonna vary based upon the marketplace, it’s gonna vary based upon experience… You could be anywhere from a couple of points up to six or six and a half points. You could be all the way down to 9% interest or up to 18% interest… But one of the things we’ve got is a tool – when you put in the deal, it will actually do all the math for you and it’ll make all those determinations online, and it’ll pop up and tell you what we can do. It just automatically does it. In less than a couple of minutes you’ll fill it out and it’ll say “Boom. This is the best thing.” And you’ll have an option of saying “I want the cheapest money” or “I want the longest-term money”, or “I want the lowest down payment money…” Depending upon what your needs are, it will tell you different pricing structures based upon all the other factors, and that’s a technology that we’ve built and are perfecting.

Joe Fairless: Oh, that’s interesting. So they have different options, from the cheapest, to the longest-term, or — what was the third thing you said?

Ryan Wright: Least amount of money down. We find there’s really three things: I wanna bring as little money down as possible, or I wanna get the cheapest deal I can, or I need a longer-term, or I want a several-year deal… Some of those types of things. We try and look at those factors and say “Well, what’s the most important…?”

So between that, and your personal circumstances, and the property’s circumstances, our logarithm does all the work and says “Here’s the best deal we have for you.” And we have all kinds of things; we don’t just have private capital, but we have hedge funds, we have lenders you may find online, but all of that comes into our database and it can say “Boom! Here’s the best deal. You don’t need to look any further.”

Our mantra is “If it can be done, we can do it”, because we’ve got such a breadth of different capital sources that can bring that… And not only from our own capital, to private investors, to hedge funds you’ve never heard about, to things that you have heard about, and it basically says “Here’s your best deal.”

Joe Fairless: Just using a hypothetical example, what would be a typical term or just a term, just so I can wrap my head around “cheapest” versus “longest-term” versus “least money down”?

Ryan Wright: Shortest-term –  you could be looking at a deal that’s 5-6 months. Longest-term – you could be looking at a deal that’s five years, maybe even ten years. We’ve got some options that are opening up… I mean, literally, we have so many options it’s hard for me to nail something down.

As far as cheapest down, we’ve done some deals where they came with a few thousand dollars, or not even that much, as we have some private investors that if it’s a really rockin’ deal, they’ll say “Hey, we’ll use the collateral”, so… Little to no money on that.

And then for some of our other ones that are cheaper, you could be looking at 10% of the overall project… But your mainstream investor that’s maybe done a couple of deals, we’ve got some killer money where we’ll fund, say, 100% of the rehab and 90% of the purchase, so you’ve gotta come up with 10% and some costs… And that’s a pretty attractive deal, with pretty attractive pricing… A couple of points, give or take, depending upon circumstances, and somewhere between 9% and 12% on the rates… So that’s good.

But again, Joe, it all depends… And that was the answer I got a lot when we first started – “It depends, it depends…” and I hate that answer, so that’s why we built a sophisticated computer system that you can plug in and it will say “Boom!” Because it really comes down to you, the property, and what you want,  what are you looking for, what’s the most important to you, and based upon all those factors it comes and says “Here you go.” It even looks up the property before it gives you an answer. Is the property in a rural area? Are taxes high in that area? Is there seasonality in that area?

It does so much stuff for you on the back-end, while you’re waiting for that, and then it’ll say “Boom! Here you go.”

We’ve invested heavily into our technology, because I think that’s the future of where this goes, of helping people do their deals. That’s really what we’re all about.

Joe Fairless: That’s really what I was wondering – what the variable was for the cheapest that you moved up and down…? Because I obviously understand if someone’s looking for the longest term what variable you change, and that’s the term of the loan; and then the least money down – I understand that, it’s how much you put down initially… But the cheapest – I was wondering your variable that you change… I should have asked it that way… And you answered it – it’s how much you bring to the deal; basically, how much in total you’re borrowing on the deal, based on the rehab and the purchase price.

Ryan Wright: And a multiple of other risk factors – crime in the area, volatility, how many deals are happening in the neighborhood… If someone is gonna do a  deal where you virtually come in with little to no money, we’re gonna look at everything. If there’s bad crime in the area, that’s gonna be a problem. If it’s in a rural area, that’s gonna be a problem.

So we’re really looking at everything when it comes to that, because that’s a higher risk situation. It doesn’t mean that we wouldn’t be able to do the deal, but we might not be able to do it where you’re coming in with little to no money.

So when we look at that, that’s more of a complex structure, because we’re looking at really what’s everything that could possibly go wrong. But again, it’s kind of on a deal-by-deal basis. I think the most important thing is we just have so many options that we can find an option that works most of the time, as long as two elements I can’t control – and that’s that you’re getting a good deal on the property, and number two, your construction budget is on the line. Those are the two things we have the most friction on, because lots of times we have people bringing us deals, and in the end our independent evaluators go to the property and they’re gonna say “No, it’s not worth this.”

And we get two independents, so they don’t talk or know each other. Or if our construction or project manager says “There’s no way. You can’t rehab this 5,000 square foot house for 10k and redo the whole thing. The math does not work.” Those are the two things, the skillsets I think that newer investors really need the most help with – finding, then valuing, then rehab, project management and the cost structure.

Joe Fairless: What is your best real estate investing advice ever?

Ryan Wright: Okay, when it comes to real estate, there’s two sides to the equation – you’ve got the making money side and you’ve got the living on less side. I find so many real estate investors are focusing so much on the making more side that they forget about the “living on less” side of it.

It’s funny, because I was with my brother-in-law down in St. George, and we’re about the same age and he was just like “Hey, you guys made some interesting choices”; we kind of compared it to that debt snowball – you take extra money to pay down your debt… Everybody kind of realizes that – take that extra money and pay down your debt. What they don’t think about is the investment snowball and the compound effects that an investment would have… So my best real estate investing advice is start early and do it often. Buy a property, whether that’s a rental, whether that’s a wholesale deal, whether that’s a rehab, and reinvest those funds. Don’t go to Disneyland. Maybe take 10% of the profits and do something with it, but reinvest, reinvest, reinvest… And then you get to a point where that snowball is going down the hill pretty rapidly in the investment direction that it spits off quite a bit of money, and you’re saying, “Wow…!”

So I think the best real estate investing advice for me is invest that money, keep reinvesting it, and let this compound investing snowball continue, and you’ll be amazed what it looks like ten years down the road.

Joe Fairless: We’re gonna do a lightning round. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?

Ryan Wright: Okay, yes.

Joe Fairless: Alright, let’s do it. First, a quick word from our Best Ever partners.

Break: [00:24:33].27] to [00:25:34].21]

Joe Fairless: Best ever book that you’ve read recently?

Ryan Wright: My best ever book is Atlas Shrugged. Have you read it before, Joe? Are you familiar with it?

Joe Fairless: I am familiar with it, I have not read it. I think there was a movie on it, a TV series, or something… I might have seen it a while ago.

Ryan Wright: Yeah, there’s a couple of movies; they’re okay… The book is amazing. It was written by a girl that  defected from Russia and was in communism and saw capitalism… It’s a novel about capitalism. I named my son after a character in the book, that’s how much–

Joe Fairless: It had a big influence on you.

Ryan Wright: Best ever book – Atlas Shrugged, hands down. It talks about the psychology of capitalism, and true capitalism, things like that. It’s a big deal for me.

Joe Fairless: Best ever transaction you’ve done?

Ryan Wright: The best one I would say is a property up in Sandy. We  actually bought it from a private auction (funny enough), and we purchased that property, rehabbed it, and we ended up clearing about $70,000 on that deal… So a really nice profit margin for the area that I’m in.

Joe Fairless: What’s a mistake you’ve made on a transaction?

Ryan Wright: I got emotional on a deal, a property in Murray… We bought a property as an investment. We said it was gonna be an investment, then we thought maybe we’d live in it; we bought the property… The mistake I made was we rented it, we decided not to move into it — the idea was, hey, we love this house, so we’ll buy it as a rental and later we’ll move into it, and we were feeding that thing – I think we lost $800/month on the property – and I kept it way to long. I ended up losing about $100,000 on this property, and it’s because I invested with my heart and not my head.

Joe Fairless: Best ever way you like to give back?

Ryan Wright: We have this safe house that we’ve kind of adopted, and during the Christmas season what we do is we provide Christmas to kids that are in this safe house. It’s in a rougher area, and it’s kids that, for example, just a few days before Christmas we got a call where the dad murdered the mom, and the kids — so dad’s in jail, mom’s dead, and the two kids just went into a home two days before Christmas, and they call us… And we have the privilege of being able to help those kids out.

The most impactful thing for us is we actually were able to take our kids and shop for the kids — we don’t have a name, but we know their age and the color, and that they like Legos, or whatever the case is… So I’m able to take my boys that are the same age as kids that are there, explain to them, and to have them be a part of that process. It’s pretty rewarding.

Joe Fairless: Oh, lifelong lessons for your kids, those kids, and you and your family, that’s for sure.

Ryan Wright: It’s really impactful, and all of our team members here were able to do the same thing, so we have just tremendous stories, not just from the families, but from our team member’s families that are impacted by doing that… So I  think that’s my favorite. We still have letters hanging up now from moms that just break your heart to walk by, but you also feel a sense of satisfaction.

Joe Fairless: Yeah, you’re doing what you can to help improve their quality of life, that’s for sure. Best ever way the Best Ever listeners can learn more about your company and get in touch with you?

Ryan Wright: If you wanna go to DoHardMoney.com/best-ever – we put together one of my books, “How to Get More Money Than You Can Ever Handle – A Real Estate Investor’s Guide to Finding Deals.” They can download that, a free copy; we sell it on Amazon for $25. Download a digital copy for free. I’d love for you to take advantage of that, so you can get to know what we do, and if we can help make your life better.

Joe Fairless: Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I learned a lot about how you all evaluate borrowers, and it’s interesting to hear that, and then it’s really interesting for fix and flippers who are listening, to learn how a lender evaluates borrowers, how to assess comps, mistakes that beginning fix and flippers make, falling in love with a deal, and specifically making sure that you have a good deal and the construction budget is in line. I’m really glad that you got into the details of the construction budget, doing bonuses for early completions, penalty for late completions, doing draws based on itemized timelines, making sure they carry insurance – all the nuances of working with contractors, as well as assessing a good opportunity… The 70% of after-repair-value minus the cost of repairs, looking at the comps; you got into detail with comps… A really valuable interview. Thanks so much for being on the show. I hope you have a best ever day, and we’ll talk to you soon.

Ryan Wright: Thanks, Joe. I really appreciate it.


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JF1360: Tools For Making A Landlord’s Life Easier with Jason Bangerter

Jason has built multiple companies, most of which were started out a need he had. The focus of this interview is on his company, and our sponsor, Rentler. Rentler allows landlords to perform most or all of the duties you need to do on a daily basis. Not only can you perform credit and background checks, collect rent, list your rentals, and more, Rentler can also help automate a lot of tasks so that you can do less of the things you don’t enjoy doing. If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!


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Jason Bangerter Background:

  • Entrepreneur and founder of multiple companies
  • He loves to take the seed of a creative business idea and bring it to fruition.
  • Started Rentler because he noticed that the rental industry served either tenants or landlords, but never both
  • Based in Sandy, UT
  • Say hi to him at http://tryrentler.com/bestever
  • Best Ever Book: The Hard Thing About Hard Things

Join us and our online investor community: BestEverCommunity.com

Made Possible Because of Our Best Ever Sponsor (and guest today):

List and manage your property all from one platform with Rentler. Once listed you can: accept applications, screen tenants, accept payments and receive maintenance tickets all in one place – and all free for landlords. Go to tryrentler.com/bestever to get started today!


Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff. With us today, Jason Bangerter. How are you doing, Jason?

Jason Bangerter: Great!

Joe Fairless: I’m glad to hear it, and nice to have you on the show.

Joe Fairless: A little bit about Jason – he has started many companies, and one of which is Rentler. Rentler was started because he noticed that the rental industry served either tenants or landlords, but never both. He is based in Sandy, Utah. You can learn more about his company at Rentler.com. With that being said, Jason, do you wanna give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and your current focus?

Jason Bangerter: Sure. Just a little background – I’ve been a designer for years, and started a company called Struck. We began just locally, and we became a national agency doing work for companies you recognize all over the globe, including companies like Nike and LEGO and BMW etc. Anyway, a few years ago I started two new companies, one of which is Rentler, and the other one is called NUVI. NUVI pulls in all of social media and analyzes it in real time. My real love is Rentler, so I turned the other company over and then focused all my efforts on Rentler.

Joe Fairless: With NUVI is there any overlap, or ways you leverage NUVI to help your other companies? Because a company that pulls in social media and analyzes it in real-time I imagine is helpful for any company.

Jason Bangerter: It is. We can use NUVI in a variety of ways, but one of the ways we can use it is to see how people are feeling about any particular topic, and then redesign our system based on what people are saying on social… Or we can pull in some of the smart people that have built NUVI, for instance my chief technology officer was with me at Struck and at NUVI, and co-founded NUVI and Rentler with me. So we’ve got some really smart people. For instance, it takes a lot to pull in all of social media and analyze it in real time.

Joe Fairless: First off, what is Rentler?

Jason Bangerter: Great question. Rentler is a place for smaller landlords to manage their properties, and really from the beginning of meeting a tenant to by the time they leave, and everything in between. It was a need that I had when I was flipping houses as an investor when I ran my other company, Struck, and flipped about maybe 25 homes… And when the music stopped in 2007, I had these houses and I thought “Crap, I’ve gotta rent them.”

I didn’t know anything about being a landlord. I started looking around, and I really needed these tools, and no one made them. So I as an entrepreneur said “Let’s just build it.” It’s what we did.

Joe Fairless: So meeting a tenant, to the time they leave, they are done with renting from you, you said everything in between. What are some of the main components of that?

Jason Bangerter: Great question. The first one would be obviously finding a tenant for your property. One thing I noticed out there was Craigslist was full of scams, there’s a lot of challenges with the scamming side of things; I didn’t like that. And then any listing site, once you rented your place, you couldn’t save your listing. That was one big thing. I got tired of reposting the same thing over and over and over. So we have a feature that you can turn on and off your listing and manage your listing from one place. That was one of the first things.

The next one that really bothered me was the on-boarding process. Actually, screening. And just a quick story – I had a tenant living in my property, and I just kind of looked at him, he looked like an honest guy; he drove a Porsche…

Joe Fairless: He got your real good, I sense it.

Jason Bangerter: Yeah, I come to find out he declared bankruptcy, and he came to me and said “Hey, I can’t make this month’s rent” and “I’m good for it.” It seemed like he was. I didn’t really know what I was doing at the time, to be frank; I’ve always had good tenants… Long story short, I couldn’t get him out of my property because I had a horrible lease I just downloaded online, that was full of holes.

Nine months later I finally got him out of my house. I lost a ton of money on that deal. It really stunk, but it reinforced my idea of starting Rentler, and I was in the middle of that problem when I was starting Rentler.

Joe Fairless: You had tons of inspiration at the time. [laughs]

Jason Bangerter: Yeah, bad inspiration, but nevertheless it got me going. Then the other features were things like background checks, as well as just the credit checks. So we’ve got some really robust things.

On the background checks, I also learned that not all background checks are created equal. People tout the idea of a national background check, and there’s counties like L.A. County, just a little county in California, that does not report their county records to the national background check… And there’s counties all over; it’s like Swiss cheese. So if someone was bad and they were living in a county in Wyoming, for instance, and then moved into your house, you have no idea if they were a baddie or a goodie. And the only way to find that out is by actually running county searches on that individual.

As someone who’s been screwed over before, I made that a mission to go out and get the best background checks possible. We’re able to get into county searches, even into the smaller counties.

Joe Fairless: Do you have to know the counties to search for, or you just hit a button and it just searches all of them?

Jason Bangerter: You hit a button and we do it all for you. Sometimes the counties are so backwards… There’s a few in Kentucky unfortunately where you have to actually send a runner to the county courthouse, and they physically look up the records.

Joe Fairless: Is that part of the hit the button process, or is that a special request?

Jason Bangerter: No, you hit the button and we go to work. The other side of it I learned too is credit checks are really regulated, and if I wanted to pull credit in the past, I would have to get my place inspected, and they had to make sure I had a fax machine, for some reason, and a lock on my filing cabinet. I’m not sure what that would do to stop someone, but… That was a requirement.

But the way we do it is we actually pull a credit check; the tenant actually pulls their own, and then shares it with the landlord, so we avoid some of those silly rules that have been put in place.

Joe Fairless: Got it.

Jason Bangerter: That was a big deal, and then it’s a soft pull on the tenant. So we do credit and background checks, and then we have forms – they’re not in every area right now, because we really research out who the lawyers are that we work with. If there’s any good lawyers out there listening to this podcast, I’m all ears… But we’ll vet you out and make sure that you’re good. But we publish those forms on our site, and allow landlords to access those.

The other things are paying rent online. Something as small as that – I remember myself going to great lengths to try to get all my tenants’ rent, and then I’d forget, because I was the COO of a major agency, and I’d be like “Crap, did that person pay me last month?” Then I’d look it up in my account and sure enough, they never did.

Then you have to go track down the rent. I had one tenant in particular – they for some reason didn’t know how money worked, and they wrote me a check and I had to rush to the bank that day, or I knew it would bounce. So I had to create those things in mind when we created our payment platform, and we take into account all that kind of stuff.

The major one is we do two-day funding on ACH, and normally it’s 5-7 business days, really. For some reason, our government takes a break during the weekends and holidays; their computers turn off for some [unintelligible [00:09:14].23] But in our system, we do two-day turnaround on ACH payments, which is absolutely phenomenal.

Joe Fairless: The finding a tenant for your property where you said you can turn on and off a listing, and you talked about Craigslist being pretty scammy or spammy – is the listing not on Craigslist, or is it just a different  way of listing it on Craigslist?

Jason Bangerter: No, currently we do it on Rentler. We’re looking at a feature where you may be able to syndicate out to other listing services… But Rentler right now gets over 7 million views a month on our site…

Joe Fairless: Holy moly! How did you do that? When did you launch Rentler?

Jason Bangerter: We launched it six years ago, and we just get a lot of traffic.

Joe Fairless: How?

Jason Bangerter: How? That’s an ancient Chinese secret. [laughter] Actually, we did something kind of brilliant… It wasn’t necessarily my idea, but we partnered with a local NBC affiliate in Utah, and they outdid Craigslist on traffic. The company is called KSL (KSL.com), and if you look under their Home section, you’ll find that Rentler is embedded into that, and we actually power their Rental section.

Joe Fairless: Beautiful!
Jason Bangerter: Yeah, we started pulling all their traffic over. They just get so much traffic, and because of the relationship – it’s a great relationship, and we love working with them – we’ve been able to increase traffic on our end, and we just get just a ton of traffic. So right now we don’t syndicate out, but we’re looking at that as a possibility… For instance, a future feature we’re looking at is the ability to publish to Craigslist, so you’d be able to manage your listing for other sites from Rentler.

Joe Fairless: Now, you get millions of views a month, and the primary way it sounds like that you grew it to this point was through that partnership. I’m on that website, and it looks like that’s a local…

Jason Bangerter: It’s a local news site. It covers the whole state of Utah. Because of that, it grew outside of the state and we started growing incrementally in other states. We’re getting around 5,000-6,000 new users every month, and outside of the state. We’ve already saturated our own state of Utah. One in every three people that live in the state of Utah is a registered user on our site.

Joe Fairless: Holy cow!

Jason Bangerter: Yeah.

Joe Fairless: Wow, that’s incredibly impressive.

Jason Bangerter: Thanks. We wanted to make sure we dominate our own local market, and then move from there.

Joe Fairless: Do you work with people nationally, then?

Jason Bangerter: Yeah, right now our forms are still localized in our own market, but we’re starting to expand that into other markets. We don’t have anything published on that yet. My whole strategy, like building the agency for instance in the past, and building from a local agency to a national agency, working with some of the biggest brands, we focused on local, and then we expanded from there, and that’s the exact strategy we’ve employed here.

We’ve already met our goals and exceeded them in our own state, and we’re in the process of really starting to aggressively expand outside of our local market. We’ve got clients in every state at this point. It’s fun to hear from them, and hear how they found us and what they’re doing with our tool.

Joe Fairless: How do you make money?

Jason Bangerter: That’s a great question. There’s different revenue sources, but in the state of Utah we do charge to list; a part of that is we have a dominant presence here… But outside we don’t. So that’s one way we’re able to take and run a large company, we’re able to pull in that revenue in the local market, and we bring a lot of value to those customers. We work with some of the largest property management companies around: Greystar, Alliance, AMC… There’s a lot of companies we work with here, and we work with very closely with that on the multifamily side. But a real focus is on the smaller 50-units and below, to build that property management software.

Joe Fairless: So the number one revenue source is Utah landlords ads for listing on your website?

Jason Bangerter: Right now that definitely is, and then the number two would be payments, and also screenings. With screenings, the landlord has the ability to choose if they’re gonna pay for it, or if they’re gonna ask their tenant to pay for it.

Another big feature — because I’m all about bringing value to a customer, not just taking… And one big thing is I noticed tenants were filling out the same information over and over again, so we made a universal application, and when you create a listing, you can actually apply one time, and then send it to multiple places.

Some of those places may require screening, some may not… But that’s why we split the application, the screening apart.

Joe Fairless: You’ve been around for six years… What are some majors things you can think of that’s evolved since you founded it?

Jason Bangerter: Oh, boy… Well, we’ve learned a lot of lessons with scammers.

Joe Fairless:  What was happening?

Jason Bangerter: One of the things we discovered was — you’ve got the normal scam, which is someone steals the images from some website out there (Craigslist, for instance), and then calls it their own… And we work really hard to avoid that. We’ve got some proprietary ways to do that, that we share with other companies like Amazon etc., and we’re able to identify scammers pretty rapidly… And we do some things that I’m not gonna reveal, but we do some things that really stop scammers pretty quickly.

Joe Fairless: Go get ’em.

Jason Bangerter: Yeah, it’s one of my favorite missions, to stop scammers. It’s one thing that’s evolved. As far as scamming goes on, payments – we  were a little naive when we started, and if you know anything about ACH, there’s this thing called the float. What happens is the tenant would put their payment out there, and then we would pay the landlord before the tenant got their account charged… So we were floating the money to the landlord. What was happening was a scammer would come along and pretend to be both landlord and tenant, and then steal the money and then poof.

So we’ve gotten really wise to that, and once that happened once or twice, we’ve completely stopped that. We haven’t had a scam on that side in years. We’re very cautious about how we handle that.

So that’s one way that’s really changed, is learning — because every time you do something, the scammers are out there thinking about new ways to scam, so we’ve gotta be on top of our game and we’ve got a great fraud team that monitors everything we do.

Joe Fairless: Anything from an offering standpoint that maybe you offered previously that you thought landlords or tenants would really want, that you found out “Oh, they don’t really care about that. Instead, let’s focus on XYZ”?

Jason Bangerter: Yeah, that’s a good question. I thought we would offer simple pricing. We went to $8/month, where you would just pay a subscription and you would get all of our services. But what we discovered was someone would use our services up front and cancel a couple months later… When in reality they just wanted to use different parts of our service, so we said “Well, let’s price it at the lowest possible price we can get away with, and allow them to just pick and choose what they wanna use. If they just wanna use this for screenings, that’s great. If they just wanna use this for listings, that’s great.

If they have under two listings, it’s free. If they wanna use us for screenings and charge their tenant, it’s free. If they wanna use payments and charge their tenants for the payments, it’s free.” So anything to help a landlord and a tenant kind of figure out their individual situation – that’s really important.

I’ll give you one more example, and that is applications. I went to school here in Utah, that’s how I ended up here; I went to BYU. And what would happen was you’d move into a house or an apartment with three other guys. At first, everything’s great, and then what would happen is someone would get married, or they’d move out, and if you signed the lease, you were screwed; they would be like “Hey, I’ll see you later”, and then the landlord would come after you.

So the way we built our applications and our payments is they target the individual. A landlord could manage each person in their unit if they have roommate situations. That was a major one doing that, and split payments. We’ve really made it so it’s so customizable to the individual situation… That’s one of the major things that makes it unique.

But going back to my design roots, I made it so all the heavy lifting is done below the surface, and to the consumer it looks like this easy to use site. Let’s just say it’s not easy, it’s very complex behind the scenes, but to the customer it’s this simple, easy to use site. But we’ve got a lot of stuff going on in the background.

Joe Fairless: Congratulations, you have unlimited amount of money and time to put towards Rentler. What’s a feature that doesn’t exist now that you would put in there?

Jason Bangerter: Great question. One thing I wanna do is build out a more robust maintenance system. Right now we have maintenance 1.0, where you can send in a trouble ticket, but I want the ability to do some additional things that will help landlords and tenants get that air conditioner fixed. If a landlord is busy and their tenant calls them or hits them up, they don’t necessarily have the time to go help that tenant, but the tenant really needs that air conditioner fixed, especially if he’s in the deep South, right?

By having a different way of thinking, we would like to even do things like allow the landlord if they wanted to put a limit in so the tenant doesn’t even have to ask, they just get it done themselves, and expediting that would be really helpful. I wanna build a lot of that out, that’s just one feature. I’ve got lots and lots of ideas… The problem is honing in and getting the best ideas really worked out first.

Joe Fairless: If you look back at challenges that have come up through the last six years, and if you were to be made aware of those challenges prior to starting Rentler, would you have still started it?

Jason Bangerter: Absolutely. It’s a needed product, it’s a needed thing. My team is just exceptional and we’ve helped literally 1.3 million people that use our system.

Joe Fairless: Based on your experience as an entrepreneur in the real estate industry, what is your best advice ever for real estate professionals?

Jason Bangerter: Wow… Best advice ever I would say is — you hear a lot about following your dreams, but the reality is it’s hard work, and you’ve gotta stick to it. If you have that thing you wanna accomplish, you’ve gotta not just set that goal, but stick to it every day. It’s a grind, but at the end it will be a reward.

Joe Fairless: We’re gonna do a lightning round. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?

Jason Bangerter: Yeah, let’s do it!
Joe Fairless: Alright, let’s do it. First, a quick word from our Best Ever partners.

Break: [00:20:45].24] to [00:21:22].00]

Joe Fairless: Best ever book you’ve read?

Jason Bangerter: Best ever book, The Hard Thing About Hard Things, by Ben Horowitz.

Joe Fairless: What’s the best ever project that you’ve worked on? And if you say Rentler, cool, but maybe specifically within Rentler, a project that you worked on.

Jason Bangerter: I’ll make it a little bit more interesting – I’d say the best ever product I’ve ever worked on is we built an app for LEGO called LegoClick.com, and you could take a picture of someone and then turn them into a LEGO.

Joe Fairless: Oh, sign me up! I’m going to check that out. What’s a mistake you’ve made in business on something?

Jason Bangerter: A mistake I’ve made in business – I’ve made a few bad hires, and not making the changes fast enough.

Joe Fairless: If you were to think about the characteristics of the individuals you fired, if presented a situation in the future where you come across an individual like that, what are those characteristics?

Jason Bangerter: Those characteristics are more of how the team sees that individual, and they don’t see [unintelligible [00:22:23].29] He was the leader and needed to make a choice: what’s more important – the overall health of the team, or trying to help that individual along? And I’ve learned that each situation is unique, but you have to really take into account your A players and not necessarily always focus on B players. Sometimes you have to make hard choices, and that’s one way you have to do it.

Joe Fairless: Best ever way you like to give back?

Jason Bangerter: I give away 10% of my income.

Joe Fairless: And how can the Best Ever listeners learn more about your company and try Rentler?

Jason Bangerter: They can go to rentler.com, and they can go to /bestever, and we’ve got a page set up for Best Ever listeners to check out everything our company works on and what our services are.

Joe Fairless: Excellent. So let’s see, the URL — is it TryRentler?

Jason Bangerter: That’s what it is.

Joe Fairless: There it is, yeah. There we go. It’s TryRentler.com/bestever, or if you’re lazy, just go to rentler.com; that’s fine, too.

Well, thank you so much for being on the show, Jason. I’m grateful that I’ve gotten to know more about your business. Prior to our conversation, obviously, Rentler is a sponsor of this podcast, and I only bring in sponsors whose business I wholeheartedly believe in, and holy cow, you all are providing a tremendous solution for real estate investors and prospective residents…

So thanks for being on the show, thanks for talking about the evolution of your company, how you make money, and where you see it going with new features, as well as how it has evolved up until this point, some of the things that you all have worked through… As real estate investors, we’re entrepreneurs, and this is some really interesting stuff, let alone learning more about a real estate investing company that has launched six years ago and is incredibly successful…

So thanks for being on the show. I hope you have a best ever day, and we’ll talk to you soon.

Jason Bangerter: Thank you.

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JF958: Why Your Vacations are LAME if You’re Not ADVENTURE FLIPPING

Vacation plus rehabs doesn’t equal humdrum work…out guest turned it into an adventure. The whole family goes to the property selected for rehab. Cosmetic upgrades, paint, and other easy expenses are put into the property while the family rocks! Hear how else he is investing in real estate!

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Doug Larson Real Estate Background:

– Real estate investor for 17 years with being full-time for 11 years
– Rentals, fix and flips, land, & lease-options in Hawaii, California and Utah
– Bought and sold over 100 properties
– Philosophy is not about collecting a certain number of doors, it’s about financial independence balanced life
– Based in Park City, Utah
– Best Ever Book: The Progress Paradox

Click here for a summary of Doug’s Best Ever advice: http://bit.ly/2oK5QYa

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Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any fluff.
With us today we have a real estate investor who’s been investing for 17 years. How are you doing, Doug Larson?

Doug Larson: Hey, I’m doing great. Thanks for reaching out, Joe.

Joe Fairless: My pleasure, and nice to have you on the show. A little bit about Doug – he is a real estate investor, as I mentioned, for 17 years, with 11 of them being full-time. He’s done rentals, fix and flips, land, lease options, and he invested in Hawaii, California and Utah, where he is based in Park City. He has bought and sold over 100 properties.

Doug, with that being said, do you wanna give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you’re focused on now?

Doug Larson: Late 1990s I was a college student and working on a traditional path. I saw an infomercial, late-night TV [unintelligible [00:03:01].07] No money down! Make millions while you sleep!”, you know the routine. I just thought, “You know what? I wanna do that. If there’s really money to be  made, then I wanna do it.” I ordered the course and read through it like three times, and kind of dabbled in it. I made some phone calls; I probably looked like a fool on the phone, but eventually when I moved back to Southern California, I bought a house in [unintelligible [00:03:24].04] that was my first live-in-flip. I live there for a little over a year, I made some money on the resale… I thought, “You know what? I need to do this on purpose.”

At the time I really wanted to move back to Hawaii, where I had attended school. So I went back over there, I lived on Maui for five years. I had a day job, but on the side I also did four single-family residences, lived-and-flips [unintelligible [00:03:49].13] Then I also renovated and sold a condo.

In 2004 I met and married a wonderful woman from Utah, and I decided to move to Utah – I did have some family that lived up here – and I decided to do real estate investing part-time.

The first couple months were a little rough in Utah, just trying to get a feel for the lay of the land, and I actually started investing in the Park City market, because it was very similar to Hawaii; not the temperature, but the same kind of buyers, the same kind of homes… There’s their second homes, third homes, you have kind of a retail buyer that’s not constrained by the “Oh, it’s gotta qualify for an FHA loan”, and those kinds of things… You know what I mean.

So I started investing up there and it worked out really well after the crash – they kind of licked their wounds – and I have branched out into other spots, even back in California. It all worked out really well; I lost some money in the downturn, but we did not default on a single property. We just ended up losing a lot of money, but we still came out the other side doing okay, and life is good.

Right now we’re doing mostly rentals, land, a few wholesales… I do two or three flips a year in Utah, in California… The ones in California I call adventure flips.

Joe Fairless: Why adventure flips?

Doug Larson: Well, I live in Utah, so to do something out of state, you either have to have a lot of boots on the ground and organize things by phone, or you can go down there. This last summer we went down and picked one up about five miles from the beach, in North San Diego County, ocean-side. The whole family came down, and we lived in the property… More like camping, really, but… We went to amusement parks and the beach and all that kind of stuff. We lived there for almost three months while I was managing contractors and things. It really was a lot of fun, it was an adventure.

Joe Fairless: What type of condition was the property in?

Doug Larson: In good condition, just dated. All the cosmetics… I think we spent about $45,000, and probably two-thirds of that was labor with subcontractors.

Joe Fairless: Okay, it was enhancing it, it wasn’t anything major… It’s interesting that you turned a flip out of state into, as you call it, an adventure flip. I wouldn’t necessarily say it was a vacation, but it was an extended road trip with your family. That’s pretty cool, I hadn’t thought about that. What made you think of bringing the whole fam and moving into the house that you were flipping?

Doug Larson: Well, before my oldest – who is now 10 – was even in kindergarten, we did three fix and flips in the San Diego area, while still technically living in Utah. It’s just the market that I grew up in, I know it, I understand it, and beyond that, in some of those nicer areas there’s a little more upside. There’s people who really appreciate the turnkey, and maybe for living there, the doctors and lawyers – they don’t get their hands dirty. They see something turnkey and they’re like, “Hey, you know what? I know it’s 50-70k more than this nasty fixer-upper down the street, but I’m willing to pay for that because I just want turnkey. I wanna move in and not have to worry about stuff.” I really appreciate that in those kinds of markets – Hawaii, Park City… Certain parts of Utah will allow for that, but California – I just love it and it was an excuse to go and visit…

I did three of those in 2010-2011. The last one I sold in 2012, and then we just decided we wanna do it again. My wife wants to do it in Florida now. I’m like, “Okay, honey… Maybe we will, but maybe not this summer. We’ll see.”

Joe Fairless: Have you thought of doing the flips based on where you wanna spend time?

Doug Larson: Yeah, absolutely. That’s a big criterion. If you’ve read The Four-Hour Workweek, or the E-Myth (The Entrepreneur Myth), or books like that where they talk about — and I don’t agree with every little thing in all those books, that “you owe it to your business to get to this level” or something, but I do like the fact that they talk about “your business works for you, and not the other way around.” Make sure that it fits your lifestyle and the things that you really wanna do in life, instead of your business owning you.
There’s a lot of things that I think I’ve done, properties that I’ve had that helped with the lifestyle design and not just “Oh, will this make me money? You have to work yourself to the bone…”

Joe Fairless: Well, adventure flips – and I’m gonna keep using that term because I like that term – is one way of having your business work for you and not the other way around… What are some other ways you structured your business to align with that?

Doug Larson: I would say the move to Hawaii in the first place and the kind of lifestyle that I had over there was certainly conducive to that. As they say in Hawaii, “Any time off is time in Hawaii.” Everybody has to have a job still, everybody works and they’re busting around doing things, but hey, if you’ve got two hours off, you’re at the beach in Hawaii.

Things I’ve done here in Utah… In Park City there’s this couple neat condos up there that have quarter share rentals – almost like a tiny share, but they’re quarter shares, so you have 13 weeks. I was able to purchase about five of those at different times over the last ten years. They had day use privileges, so they were an investment, but we could also go up there, and I’ve made money on all of them except one. Collectively, I’ve made money more than that money would have made sitting in the bank. They’re between 40-60k dollars for these quarter share units, but you get access to this five-star resort. They’ve got owners lounges, full kitchens, pools and hot tubs, sauna steam room, and you can go up there and just spend the day like you own the place, but you can also get the revenue from renting the property out. You can use their management system and it’s a pretty hands-off thing.

I also own some recreational property quite a bit East of here – about an hour and a half East – and we go out there, we’ve got a couple of little mini-cabins, we spend time with the extended family and we play with quads, and go fishing and stuff like that. And again, I think those are good investments; maybe not as good as some other investments, but they help the overall freedom and lifestyle factor. They give you some fun, and it’s not just drudgery.

Joe Fairless: I’m glad you mentioned some of those specific examples. For the quarter shares, which I haven’t come across that term, but you said it’s just like time shares, but you rent by the week, right?

Doug Larson: You get the quarter share of a unit. You actually own 13 weeks. They have a schedule and they say “These are your 13 weeks.” Your weeks come up around Christmas time – those are the golden weeks – and you [unintelligible [00:10:08].04] for your unit, Christmas and New Year’s, and also President’s Day weekend because it’s a ski resort. It’s kind of a unique kind of a time share, but I’m only buying these resale; I would never buy one retail, because there’s just too many commissions and other things involved. But you buy these on the secondary market and they actually work out for [unintelligible [00:10:25].15] investment. The return on investment might be 5% per year, but if it’s incorporated into your lifestyle and the money is doing more than just sitting in the bank – at what, half a percent these days? – then that’s good to me, and it can really help to give you some more fun, freedom, adventure, rather than again just, as I say, toilets and termites.

Joe Fairless: Yeah. For someone who is interested in doing quarter shares, you said three of them have worked out well enough, but one of them you lost money… What’s the difference between the three and the one?

Doug Larson: I think there were actually five in total; I remember I bought two at one point from a bank that was selling some after they foreclosed, and I think one did not… We lost about 7k on that one. The only reason why we lost is because we sold it – I really needed to raise some capital for something else, and I could either borrow at hard money terms, or I could sell one of these units, and there was somebody that had said they were interested, and I said “Oh, what the heck, I’ll just sell that.” So I did, and we lost a few grand on it. But again… Vacation money.

The other ones… If you average them all together, we came out ahead. My wife’s on board, and anytime it’ll make sense we’ll probably go buy another one, but we’ll see how it goes and how it fits into our lives. We’ve got three kids now, so [unintelligible [00:11:37].22]

Joe Fairless: The recreational property – you called that it an investment, where you have a couple cabins, so I assume you rent those out?

Doug Larson: I don’t actually… I just let friends and family stay there. They’re not income-producing, but I sent out letters to people who had property on water – there’s a really nice stream out there – and I actually got responses… I sent maybe 20 letters and I got responses from about 5 people  who said they were interested, and I said “Well, what the heck?”, so I bought five different parcels that all are kind of in a similar area, and they’ve got water access, and good fishing, hiking, biking, off-roading and things like that. Eventually, we’ll probably market those.

I think a couple weeks ago we had somebody on that talked about investing in raw land, and I was very intrigued in his method of doing it, but I figured it works for me.

Joe Fairless: Are those five parcels connected?

Doug Larson: No. Actually, two of them are connected to each other. The rest of them are not, but they’re within five miles of each other.

Joe Fairless: Okay. What did the letter say?

Doug Larson: Probably the standard thing – “Hey, I’m interested in buying your property. I see you own this five-acre piece. I like it if something’s on the water, like yours is. Here’s what I can pay.” I don’t think I say “Can’t pay retail”, I just said, “Here’s what I can pay for your property.” And then they called back.

I actually got one person who called that was very irate, but anybody who sends out letters knows that. I don’t do a lot of wholesale letters and cards and yellow letters and things like that, but I knew what I wanted, I had the tax record and just printed things out… I’m glad I only offended one person.

Joe Fairless: You put the amount that you were willing to pay in the letter, so every letter was different?

Doug Larson: I think I said “per acre”. One was a four-acre, one’s a five, one’s a ten, one’s a twelve-and-a-half… So I just said, “Here’s what I want you do to”, and I had them call me back.

What I was hoping was that maybe some of them said, “Oh, by the way, I own this one next door” or “The neighbor next door might be willing to sell as well”, or something like that, so they could kind of have something to pass along. But I think I said, “per acre.”

Like I said, I had a pretty decent response. There’s was a lot of “Don’t want to” as far as property goes, especially if they’re delinquent on their taxes, or they’re just getting old and they just don’t have a use for this property anymore.

Joe Fairless: You sent it out to roughly twenty and you got five responses?

Doug Larson: Yes. You could say six if you count the guy who swore at me.

Joe Fairless: Yeah… [laughter] You definitely got six responses. When someone calls irate and they just are laying into you, what do you say to them?

Doug Larson: I say, “Well, sorry I offended you, I didn’t mean to do that. I’m just looking for some recreational property for me and my family. If you ever do change your mind, you can certainly give me a call back.”

Joe Fairless: [laughs] And what did they say?

Doug Larson: I can’t even remember. I don’t think he was still very happy.

Joe Fairless: Got it. So the five people that called you interested – you bought all five of their properties?

Doug Larson: I did, all five. I see a good potential for resale on these properties and making some money. I did have some ideas about improving them, with mini-cabins as well, but I just got so involved in other things that I haven’t taken that to full fruition. But it’s one of those things [unintelligible [00:15:02].17] legacy properties in the meantime, and hopefully appreciation of the asset in the meantime, and we’ll just see how it goes.

Joe Fairless: What do you attribute having a 25% response rate to on that direct mail?

Doug Larson: Again, I think if you find the right motivated sellers and you push some of the buttons, you’re gonna do well. I know that’s the case when wholesalers talk about their [unintelligible [00:15:25].12]. I attended a meeting very recently where one wholesaler said that he sends out 125,000 tickets of mail every month, and it’s “We’ll buy your home, we’ll buy it in any condition”, and those kinds of things. They get a 2% or 3% response rate with housing, and the people who do call are motivated.

Out there, I would say, these properties are not bringing in any income. They are mostly older people who’ve owned them for a long time. I didn’t necessarily look at tax records as a stipulation, but there were a couple of them once I pulled all that information up and I thought, “Oh, they’re delinquent a year or two”, so they’re probably getting tired of owning them, and sure enough, those are some of the ones that did respond back and said, “Yeah, it’s an offer… I’d be willing to sell.”

If they’re not paying their taxes, and their taxes are $100/year, then they could probably use a couple thousand dollars, right?

Joe Fairless: Yeah, exactly. How did you determine how much you were gonna pay per acre?

Doug Larson: I just called sold comps; there’s a lot of property for sale, but there might have been a dozen similar properties that had actually sold, and I just said, “Okay, if that’s what I can get it for, then I’m gonna reduce it by about half, and see if I can get the properties for that.”

Joe Fairless: You look at sold comps by the acre and then you divided it by two and that was what you were offering?

Doug Larson: That’s right.

Joe Fairless: Of those five people you closed on, how many of the five did you pay above that 50% threshold?

Doug Larson: I don’t think.

Joe Fairless: None of them negotiated with you, and you didn’t budge with any of them?

Doug Larson: I didn’t budge… A couple of them asked for a little bit more, and I just said, “Well, I’ll take a look at it”, and I was pretty firm on my prices. I just said, “Here’s what I need to pay. I really like your property…” I never insult anybody about their property. I never say, “Oh, it’s a piece of junk because of this or that.” I just say, “Hey, I really like it, and here’s what I’m willing to pay.”

Joe Fairless: Doug, based on your experience as a real estate investor, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?

Doug Larson: I would say networking. They say it’s easier to make friends than money, and it’s easier to make money with friends. By friends – it doesn’t have to be the guys that you’re hanging out with every weekend, but when you network at real estate clubs and when you’re online on some of the forums and you’re making connections and contacts, people begin to see what you’re really like, and they know you, like you, trust you, and you can make deals happen.

Most of my other deals, my rentals and flips – it’s about relationships. I don’t really have to search very hard to find deals. I’m not out shaking the trees very much, because a lot of deals just seem to come my way as long as I’m networking, talking to people and telling people “Hey, I’m looking for a rental right now, under $150,000. I wanna be all in with repairs at 150k, but it needs to rent for about 1% of the purchase price… Like $1,600/month. It can be anywhere from this point to this point, this city to this city.”

I’m also looking for flips and I’ll go up to $350,000 or $400,000 on purchase price, so long as there’s $100,000 margin. As long as you’re specific like that, you get in front of somebody’s face and say, “Here’s what I’m looking for”, eventually stuff just comes your way.

Joe Fairless: If you’re at a real estate meetup that you are attending for the first time, you walk in the door, what’s your approach at the meetup?

Doug Larson: Good one. I think everybody is kind of like, “Hey, hi. What do you do? Hey, what’s your specialty? Hey, what are you looking for? What can I help you with?” and that’s kind of my emo as well. I come loaded with business cards, and sometimes I’ll circle a couple things. The business card says, “I buy land, I also like fix and flips”… I might actually write in pen on 20 business cards specifically what I’m looking for: “I want to buy now, under $350,000 flip” and almost like they took my card and wrote something on it for them to remember later.

I get a million business cards, but as you’re going back through your pockets when you clean them out, you’re like, “Oh, cool, here’s this guy. What was he looking for? Oh, it’s right here.” And then they can go, “Oh yeah, I do remember this guy… He did tell me that’s what he was looking for.”

Joe Fairless: That’s a great tip, thanks for sharing that. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?

Doug Larson: Sure man, let’s do it.

Joe Fairless: Sweet. Alright, first a quick word from our Best Ever partners.

Break: [00:19:47].07] to [00:20:29].08]

Joe Fairless: What’s the best ever book you’ve read?

Doug Larson: Do I have to pick just one?

Joe Fairless: You’ll kill the format of my show if you don’t. [laughter]

Doug Larson: The Millionaire Next Door, The Progress Paradox and How Much Is Enough? Okay, I’m sorry, that was three.

Joe Fairless: You said them so fast! Give me one.

Doug Larson: How about The Progress Paradox?

Joe Fairless: Alright, I’m gonna put that on my list. What’s the best ever deal you’ve done?

Doug Larson: I think 2011 I was down in San Diego and I was working on one of those adventure flips I mentioned, and a real estate agent up here in Utah called me and said, “Hey, I’ve got this deal… It’s a land deal, I would totally buy it, but I’m a little capped out on cash right now, and they need cash and a quick close. Income property, $50,000; they’ve just dropped from 100k [unintelligible [00:21:15].11]” and I said, “Send me the info.” They sent it, I ended up buying it for 38k. A little bit of legwork, I found out some of its issues, [unintelligible [00:21:23].01] and things like that.

Long story short, I got all those things cleared up, I was all in for about $40,000. I sold it a year and a half later for 190k, so a pretty good flip.

Joe Fairless: Pretty good flip indeed, I love that! What’s the best ever way you like to give back?

Doug Larson: My wife and I have been adopted three times, by three awesome kids, and we give a lot of time and energy to them. We’re also pretty active in church, in helping and teaching adults and youth, so… It pretty much takes up all our time.

Joe Fairless: What’s the biggest mistake you’ve made on a deal, or just any mistake that comes to mind on a deal?

Doug Larson: On a deal… A specific deal, probably over-improving. The biggest mistake was believing the hype of 2002-2006 and that things were always going to go up. I think we all knew the music would stop somewhere, but just not how fast and how hard it was going to drop. I would say one particular deal – in buying into that hype, I invested in a condo up in Park City, and the wheels fell off during construction. I could either lose 25k earnest money, or just go all in. I went all in, and I lost close to 90k.

Joe Fairless: What do you do differently now?

Doug Larson: [laughs] Well, I wouldn’t buy that, that’s for sure. Again, it really is all about the numbers, and good, solid fundamentals. Make sure you’ve got cash flow, make sure you’ve got a plan A, plan B, plan C. Plan A – if it’s gonna be a flip, that’s great. If that doesn’t work, can you rent it? Can you lease-option it? Do you wanna live in it, maybe? What is your plan B? Plan C is “If I really had to get out of this thing really fast, with my lowest price, am I gonna lose my shorts? What are the other options? Can I wholesale it to somebody else? What are the other things?”

Have that all mapped out before you begin. If you know the fundamentals, it should tell you what to do.

Joe Fairless: Where can the Best Ever listeners get in touch with you, Doug?

Doug Larson: On LinkedIn, but I don’t really go there much, I’ll be honest. I’m on BiggerPockets, and I’m there at least a couple times a week. I’m giving some advice and talking to people, so if somebody wants to find me, they can find me there.

Joe Fairless: I have really enjoyed our conversation, as the focus has been — like you said earlier, your business has to work for you, not the other way around. We talked about your adventure flips, where you move your family for three months into a house five minutes from the beach. The move to Hawaii, the recreational property, the direct mail within that, how you acquired those five properties, and how you priced it out to offer the properties in the direct mail piece, as well as a networking tip, where you write in blue ink on the business card exactly what you’re looking for.
Doug, thank you for being on the show… Some interesting stuff, a different type of conversation than we usually have, and I’ve really enjoyed it. I hope you have a best ever day, and we’ll talk to you soon!

Doug Larson: Thanks, Joe. Good talking with you!


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JF859: All About Leadership #SkillsetSunday

Leadership is a trait that can be lost if not developed or maintained. Today you will hear all about leadership, how to develop leadership, maintain it, and be an example to others.

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To lead is to respect the potential of others.

Ryan Michler Real Estate Background:

– Founder of Order of Man, a blog and podcast dedicated to helping men develop in eight key areas of their lives
– Financial Advisor and entrepreneur
– Iraqi Combat Veteran
– Based in Saint George, Utah
– Say hi to him at http://www.orderofman.com

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JF851: What to Do at the LAST Second to Punch Through the Deal #SituationSaturday

He was moving into another home while selling his and the buyer for his house made a frustrating decision… Hear what she said to our guest and how our guest overcame the struggle.

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Cameron D. Hall Real Estate Background:

– Founder at Virtue Boxx, LLC & Real Estate Investor
– Most recent real estate deal: new personal residence-Sep 2016
– Based in Salt Lake City, Utah
– Say hi to him at www.virtueboxx.org

Made Possible Because of Our Best Ever Sponsors:

You find the deals. We’ll fund them. Yes, it’s that simple. Fund That Flip is an online lender that provides fast and affordable capital to real estate investors. We make funding your projects easy so you can focus on what you do best…rehabilitating homes.

Download your free copy at http://www.fundthatflip.com/bestever


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JF807: How to Make $250,000 PROFIT in Your First Year of Wholesaling

Only making $19,000 won’t cut it in any business, and before wholesaling that was his reality. Cody jumped into the flipping business by surrounding himself with mentors, extremely successful connections, and systems and was able to profit over $250,000 in his first year!

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Cody Hofhine Real Estate Background:

– Founder of Investor Grit and Utah Sell Now, LLC.
– Introduced to Wholesaling and now collaborates with Tom Krol
– In first year of wholesaling real estate, did over $500,000 in assignments
– This year on track to break a million
– Based in Salt Lake City, Utah
– Say hi to him at http://investorgrit.com/
– Best Ever Book:The Compound Effect by Darren Hardy

Click here for a summary of Cody’s Best Ever Advice: https://joefairless.com/wholesale-way-250000-profit-one-year/

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JF732: When You Want it Bad Enough, You Do This

Many problems took place when our friend was involved in the purchase in Utah. Hear how the deal dragged out and how our guest was put through the ringer!

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Aaron Marshall Real Estate Background:

– CEO at Keyrenter Franchise, LLC, the ultimate business model in residential property management
– Sold over 1,500 homes
– Successfully franchised a property management business
– Based in Salt Lake City, Utah
– You can reach him at keyrenter.com

Want an inbox full of online leads?

Get a FREE strategy session with Dan Barrett who is the only certified Google partner that exclusively works with real estate investors like us.

Go to http://www.adwordsnerds.com strategy to schedule the appointment.

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JF639: How You Could Own a Property Management Franchise

Franchise? Yes, that’s right. Today’s guest has sold and bought over 1500 homes and has decided to create a property management franchise in which others can build their own business upon. Hear how he set it up, the rules and regulations he follows, the pros and cons, and what he’s up to next!

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Aaron Marshall Real Estate Background:

– Sold over 1,500 homes
– Successfully franchised a property management business
– Based in Salt Lake City, Utah
– You can reach him at aaron@keyrenter.com

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You find the deals. We’ll fund them. Yes, it’s that simple. Fund That Flip is an online lender that provides fast and affordable capital to real estate investors.

We make funding your projects easy so you can focus on what you do best…rehabilitating homes. Learn more at http://www.fundthatflip.com/bestever.

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Best Ever Show Real Estate Advice

JF296: How to Manage Everything From a Single-Family Home to Hundreds of Apartment Units

Today’s Best Ever guest shares with us everything you need to know about property management. Whether a property manager or not, here are the things YOU need to know about it and what you need to look for in a potential property manager.

Best Ever Tweet:

Clint Collins’ real estate background:

–          Began managing apartments while in grad school for free rent 10 years ago

–          Been investing and managing properties ever since

–          His team now runs over 1,800 units and Clint directs an accredited property management training program for http://www.RentLikeAPro.com and HUDU University

–          He is currently consulting for a multifamily project in Micronesia

–          Based in Guam and Idaho and Utah

–         Here is the sample doc we discussed during the show: SAMPLEApplicationScoring

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Made Possible Because of Our Best Ever Sponsor:

Patch of Land – Want to learn more about crowdfunding? Let the leading expert in the crowdfunding space, Patch of Land, give you all the info you need to get started. Grab your FREE copy of Top Ten Answers to the Top Ten Crowdfunding Questions athttp://www.PatchOfLand.com/bestever

Wela – Get clarity and insight on your money by using Wela. See all your accounts in one place, and get all the answers to your questions from a real financial advisor ANYTIME.  Go to yourwela.com to learn more.

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Joe Fairless