Chris is the founder of Money Ripples, also the host of the Chris Miles Money Show, and has been featured on CNN Money and US News. He has had experience coaching people in the stock market, owning rental properties, and financial advising. At age 28 he was financially independent due to affiliations, and rental properties. He shares how he went from financial independence to losing everything and going back into the rat race and working his way back out.
Chris Miles Real Estate Background:
- Founder of Money Ripples
- Author and Host of the Chris Miles Money Show
- Has been featured in US News and CNN Money
- Has helped his clients increase their cash flow by over $200 Million in the last 10 years
- Based in Salt Lake City, Utah
- Say hi to him at http://moneyripples.com
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Best Ever Tweet:
“Cash flow creates options if you have more cash flow that creates freedom” – Chris Miles
Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless. This is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast where we only talk about the best advice ever; we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff. With us today, Chris Miles. How you doing, Chris?
Chris Miles: I’m doing awesome, Joe. How you doing?
Joe Fairless: I’m doing well, and I’m glad you’re doing awesome. Looking forward to our conversation. A little bit about Chris – he’s the founder of Money Ripples, he’s the author and host of the Chris Miles Money Show, and he helps his clients increase their cash flow, has done so by a tune of over $200 million in the last ten years; based near Salt Lake City, Utah.
First off, Best Ever listeners, I hope you’re having a best ever weekend; because today is Sunday, we have a special segment like we usually do on Sundays, and it is Skillset Sunda. And because of that, we’re focusing our conversation with Chris on how to think differently about your financial plan, and as he calls it – prior to us having this recorded conversation, he would mention to me, he calls it the anti-financial plan. So we’re going to talk about his thought process and how to go against the grain, and why he believes in that, and what practical next steps we can take to act on it, should we embrace it as well. So first, Chris, do you want to give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background, and then we’ll dive right into it?
Chris Miles: You bet. I started out in the business world. I was going to college, I was intending to become a business consultant, but I figured if I was gonna do that, I should have real-life experience. So I actually dropped out of college with one class to go for my bachelor’s, and I went into business, and the first business that became available was becoming a financial advisor. Little did I know at the time, I didn’t know that they would hire just about anybody. As long as you can pass a test and get a license, they’ll take anybody on, experienced or not. So I actually started doing that and I actually enjoyed it. I started doing that back in the early 2000s. So right after 9/11 is when I became a financial advisor, and did that for four years, but as time went on– I’m one of those people, I like to see evidence, I like to see that things work, and I don’t like to be out of integrity with anything. So I want to make sure I’m teaching truth and I’m doing things that are legit.
And as time went on, especially as I inherited old clients from advisors that had quit or moved on or whatever, I started to realize that people weren’t that well off financially; not the way I had envisioned and had been sold from everybody. Because if you look at all the financial advice that’s being taught to you out there, it all stems from financial institutions – banks, mutual fund companies, everything else, everything. Even the Suze Ormans, the Dave Ramseys of the world, they’re just little pawns in that little game of teaching you what they want you to do, which is save everything, spend nothing, save it forever, save it in crappy mutual funds, and then the last 30 years, the real rate of return of the S&P has only been 7.5%, and when you factor in fees and everything else coming out, you’re likely to get 6% or 6.5%, not 10% or 12% like I was teaching.
So when I started running real numbers as a financial advisor, I started to run, what if it’s like 6% or 7% instead, and what if inflation actually isn’t 2% or 3% like the government’s trying to tell us it is? What if it’s actually more like 4% or 5% or more? And then it got really depressing, and I realized I couldn’t tell anybody and give them any hope, because I’m like, well, even saving 10% or 20%, your income isn’t enough. In fact, in most cases, you want to have a 20-year retirement plan, for example, and you want to be able to live on a $60,000 a year lifestyle today, but do that 20 years, you’ve got to actually save up about $8,000 a month to live on $60,000 a year, on $5000 a month in 20 years. It’s frickin ridiculous.
So in 2006, I started to meet guys who were real estate investors and business owners guys that have become multimillionaires and even retired by the time they’re in their 20’s and 30’s, and I was like, “I want that.” So March of ’06, I quit being a financial adviser, vowed never to go back again. I was like, “I’ll never teach about money again. I’m just gonna be a mortgage broker and I’ll teach ballroom dancing,” because, a little known fact, I was one the nation’s top amateur ballroom dancers back in the early 2000s. That was my goal. But I started learning these things about creating real cash flow – acceleration, not accumulation – and I was actually able to become financially independent the first time when I was 28, back in 2006.
Joe Fairless: How did you define financial independence at 28?
Chris Miles: Same way that Robert Kiyosaki would – your passive residual investments and income is able to cover your expenses.
Joe Fairless: What were your expenses at the time?
Chris Miles: Oh, at that time, I only had two kids. So I have eight now with blended family. So only with two kids, it was only $4,000 a month, so it wasn’t that much.
Joe Fairless: On that 4k expenses at the time when you were 28, so you had $4,001 at least coming in on a monthly basis. Where was that money coming from?
Chris Miles: I had real estate. So rental real estate, things like that.
Joe Fairless: What did you have specifically?
Chris Miles: Just single-family homes.
Joe Fairless: Okay, how many do you have?
Chris Miles: Two.
Joe Fairless: Okay, two homes. what else do you have?
Chris Miles: And then I had residual income through business with affiliate and referral type stuff; not like the affiliate you see today, but it was very organic. For example– and this is something that actually one of those millionaire guys turned me on to. He said, “You’re doing mortgages, right?” I was doing mortgages actively and he said, “Well, Chris, if money were no issue, would you keep doing mortgages?” I said, “Well, no. I like teaching about it and I like helping them figure out the strategy, but I hate the paperwork.” So he said, “Well, why don’t you refer it to somebody who does like doing that?”
Joe Fairless: Oh, cool.
Chris Miles: In my mind, I never thought that was possible, because I was in that scarcity mentality before of just you try to earn everything and don’t farm out anything, don’t hire anybody, you take all the money you can; a do-it-yourselfer, which is do-it-crap. So I actually found a guy that actually was willing to the paperwork and I said, “Hey, what if we split it 50-50?” and he’s like, “Great, let’s do it.” And I’d spent a half an hour to hour on somebody and next thing I know, there’s about $1,000 or $1,500 bucks coming in from that one person I referred.
Joe Fairless: That’s a win-win for you and the business partner.
Chris Miles: Yeah, and it really became a win-win-win, because even for the client I referred then, I would tell them what to do with their mortgage so they could put in other investments so that those investments could then pay for their mortgage payment. This, of course, with real estate hard money and things like that. And when we were doing that, people say, “Cool, where would I get the mortgage?” I’m like, “Go talk to this guy,” and that was it. It was served up on a silver platter for him, so he loved it, and they loved it because they got serviced really well by him, because he was a good guy, full of integrity, did always what was best, which I really appreciated too, and it was great. It was one of those things I’d never fathom could work. Again, I didn’t have an official business. Remember, I quit being a financial advisor, I’ve vowed never to talk about money. The problem was there were still people asking me some questions, because they noticed that my life was changing from a financial standpoint as well, and I was just different. So it wasn’t the same person.
Joe Fairless: So when you were 28, you had the residual income from referrals with your clients that you sent to the person you were working with to actually fulfill the mortgages. On the single-family home, you had two of those. I don’t imagine those are spitting off a whole lot of income. How much per house were they?
Chris Miles: It was only about $1,000, total.
Joe Fairless: That’s still pretty good for a single-family house. $500 a month. Okay, and were any other income sources at the age of 28?
Chris Miles: That was it. I’m trying to remember if I had a hard money loan or not. I might have had something there but no, I mean, it was mostly just real estate, and then just those random referrals that I would send along… But it was like one referral a month, you’re adding up to a couple thousand bucks a month just there too, and so I was making $4,000 or $5,000 a month total between the two.
Joe Fairless: Wow. So you were making $3000 plus per month on just the referrals. Wow. Okay, alright. So that was 28; I know that’s not yesterday. So then what happened?
Chris Miles: Then, of course, I started partnering up with some guys that were also out of the rat race themselves. They said, “Hey, we want to start a company, teach people how to get out of the rat race.” This is the end of 2006. I was at that point– I was spending the last six months trying to find purpose, because most people don’t realize, when you actually get to the point where you’re financially independent, you start to ask yourself, “Well, now what? I got there, what’s the next thing for me?” I almost opened up some dance studios and stuff, but something didn’t feel quite right. My gut was telling me, “Don’t do that,” and then I had some guys say, “Hey–”
Joe Fairless: Just so I’m making sure I’m tracking right, if your expenses were about $4000, you’re bringing in about $4,000 to $5,000, it didn’t seem like you had much money to invest for dance studios or anything else… Or was there another chunk of money coming from somewhere else?
Chris Miles: When I got there, I was like, “Well, now what?” because I didn’t know what to do. At the time, I was also doing stock coaching, ironically, which I’m anti-stock market now… But I was teaching people about how to trade in the stock market at a hard time. So I was making $6,000 a month doing that.
Joe Fairless: Oh, there we go there. There’s that.
Chris Miles: So that’s where it became gravy. So that helped boost up money I can invest and use during that period of time. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I always forget that detail.
Joe Fairless: Maybe, you conveniently blocked it out because you don’t like stock investing.
Chris Miles: [laughs] Exactly. I’m grateful for because it gave me a lot of perspective, but it’s definitely not something like, “Oh yeah, I’m gonna totally do that again.” I was doing that because I didn’t know what to do next. So I just kept doing what I was doing before, but I was looking for something else, and that’s when that opportunity came up and they said, “Hey, why don’t you work with us? Leave your house, work with us in an actual office again.” I was like, “Ugh. Ugh, I’ve gotta work in an office? This sucks. Alright.” I see the mission, I see the vision, it sounds awesome, I love teaching; that, I feel like, is my calling overall, is to teach. So yeah, I did that, and funny enough, we were actually focused on people that were real estate investors, helping them get out of the rat race.
Well, 2007, especially when we hit about July, August, when everything starts tightening up in ’07, that’s when crap was hitting the fan. At the same time those partners said, “Hey Chris, we don’t like you making all these other residual streams of income. Can you focus just on this?” which was number one biggest mistake I could have made at that time… Because I should have said, “To heck with you guys. I’m gonna keep making my passive and residual income regardless,” but I didn’t, and so I cut those off, so and now I was down to mostly just an active stream of income and some real estate. And of course, my real estate, because I wasn’t buying for cash flow as much, I was just hoping there’s more appreciation… I was cashing out all the equity I could. Well now, I’m upside down on some properties… I’m lucky I was able to get out from under them, but still it was painful.
At the same time, all those real estate investors couldn’t pay us either. So the active streams of income weren’t working because their money was locked up, my money was locked up, and I wasn’t tracking my money either. That was a big thing. Because there’s so much money coming in, it’s like, “Why track it, why even pay attention? I have an abundance of money coming in.” Well, now when I finally decided to look at my money, I realized I’m in the hole $16,000 a month, between my business and my personal expenses. So I went from out of the rat race to now deeply back in it and in the hole, and eventually ended up being over a million dollars in debt by 2008. So I had to dig out of that. I didn’t file for bankruptcy, but I had to claw my way back out without any savings or any credit.
Joe Fairless: What was the largest chunk of that million?
Chris Miles: Real estate. Mortgages on real estate was a big one. So getting upside down from that, having to sell those off; short sel or even foreclose on some of those, which was tough.
Joe Fairless: So you had a million dollars worth of loans, or the loans that you’re referring to within that million were upside down?
Chris Miles: Loans. Total in loans– I would say, because all assets I was able to sell off was maybe half a million. So I was still upside down about half a million or so.
Joe Fairless: Okay, got it. Because you could have a billion dollars worth of loans, but if it’s worth $10 billion then all good. But okay, so you were upside down by about half a million dollars on that.
Chris Miles: Yeah, so I had to turn in cars; I turned in my Mercedes. I was like, “Hey, you’re gonna take it from me anyways,” and they auctioned it off for $30,000 less than what I owed, and I had to pay that back, and everything else. [unintelligible [00:14:25].23] roughly about half a million of debt after everything was sold off. I had no assets left. Then I had to figure out how to get out of that hole, which–
Joe Fairless: What was the conversation like with your significant other?
Chris Miles: Oh, man, it sucked. It was hard for her, and this is my ex-wife, my wife at that time. It was really tough, because she felt helpless. She wasn’t working; she was at home with the kids. We had, at that time, four young children. So she was trying to take care of them while at the same time I’m trying to figure this out. So she felt helpless. There was even times she said things like, “Man, should I just take the kids and move in with my sister and you can figure stuff out?” I’m like, “That’s the worst thing you could do.” I’m already struggling mentally feeling like I was– I was out of integrity. I could no longer teach people how to get out of the rat race because I was now in it. So I stopped that; I had to start teaching people how to get resourceful, like I was being, which is what people wanted anyways, because most people didn’t feel like they had any money during the recession.
Joe Fairless: What tips would you give someone when speaking to their significant other if they’re in a similar situation?
Chris Miles: Definitely have a lot more empathy than I had… Because my ego was so butthurt. I was being defensive, which any guy naturally would do that. That’s a knee jerk reaction. That’s a natural thing, is that our egos want to feel like we can protect and provide for our families. But if I would have more empathy and say, “Hey, I know you feel helpless here. You feel like there’s nothing you can do. Honestly, the best thing you can do is just be there for me. I know it’s hard to support me, without losing faith, but that’s the best thing you can do, and just trust in me,” and that’s all I wanted to hear too. I wanted to hear that. Just saying that you trust in me that we’ll figure this out. “It doesn’t matter if we lose everything, we still have each other,” that kind of thing.
I had to take over the collection calls. I couldn’t let her handle the finances anymore because it was too hard on her, plus she felt she couldn’t have given them a good answer of when they’d get paid back. Cool thing is, when I started talking to them, I started to change my perspective around it. This is when things started to turn around; I stopped looking at it as a bad thing that collectors are calling, and instead I started calling them “I love you calls.”
Joe Fairless: [laughs] Okay, please elaborate.
Chris Miles: Because [unintelligible [00:16:26].18] they scattered. When they knew I was going through hard times, they weren’t there. I mean, there’s a few that stuck it out, that were true friends, but for the most part, everybody scattered when they realized I was in dire straits, but those–
Joe Fairless: How did they know that you’re in dire straits, your friends?
Chris Miles: Especially – if they’re friends, I would tell them; or they just knew, because for example, our house was one of those that foreclosed. I was able to sell off the investment properties and just walk away with a little bit in the hole, but I had to foreclose on my own house, which sucked… Partly because it was through Lehman Brothers. So [unintelligible [00:16:57].03] short sale offers, they wouldn’t accept them. So they end up foreclosing for $170,000 less than the short sale offers. So we had to move out of a big mansion, so to speak, move into a house that was less than half the size and a quarter of the payment. So they saw these lifestyle changes happening. I mean, I’m driving old cars versus a nice Mercedes. It was pretty obvious from the outside to see that I was selling things off quickly.
So from the outside, those people knew, and of course, the friends or family, especially in-laws, for example, they were saying, “Ugh [unintelligible [00:17:28].23] You should go back to school and get that bachelor’s because that’s the answer.” I’m like, “I have a friend right now, he’s got a Master’s. He can’t pay people for a job right now.” He wanted to become an accountant; accountants wouldn’t hire him even for free, because they’re saying, “Well, we have enough business. We don’t need you.” So he was two years unemployed with an MBA. It was just ridiculous. So yeah, there’s a lot of that going on.
Joe Fairless: How was it an I love you call?
Chris Miles: It was I love you call because the collectors, they call up regardless; they’re calling daily. Friends weren’t calling me daily. I needed friends, but they were calling me on a regular basis. So when they’d call, I would treat them like they’re a buddy. I was like, “Hey, how’s it going?” “Ugh, good. Just so you know, this call may be recorded. We’re here to collect a debt.” “Yeah, I know.” “Oh, great. You know when you’re gonna pay that debt?” “No.” “Alright. Well, when will you pay us?” “No clue, but you’ll get paid.” “Okay, well, we’re gonna call you again.” “That’s fine. Looking forward to it. See ya.” That went off for a couple of years, until I paid those guys off, one by one eventually. But that’s what helped turn it around, because instead of me being like, “Oh, send them to voicemail again.”
The worst was when I auctioned off the Mercedes – well, I didn’t, but the dealer did – and they were calling me to collect on that, the $30,000 bucks, and they would say things like, “Well, can you make payments of $1,200 bucks a month?” I said, “If I can make the $1,200 dollar a month payment, I would have made the $1,000 month payment on that Mercedes.” I remember one guy, he just said, “You know what? You’re the reason that we’re in such bad economic times right now. You’re the reason why we’re in this situation.” I said, “Are you kidding me? I’ve spent hundreds of thousands of dollars hiring people like you to have a job, but now I can’t hire any more.” Well, I’m like, “I’m not the cause here, you jerk. I wanna smack you.”
So I mean, that was the stuff I was struggling with while trying to teach people about money and trying to financially prosper, and essentially try to prove that what I did the first time would work a second time. I struggled more with the mindset piece than I ever did with the strategy. Once I got over my ego and I just released all that expectation and just said, “You know what, however long it takes, it’s gonna work; I know it,” and I got to this place of not just hoping would work, to a place of knowingness. Once that happened, that’s when things started to turn around.
Joe Fairless: So what’s your approach now?
Chris Miles: My approach now – man, passive income, multiple streams of income is essential. Cash flow creates options and when you have more cash flow, that creates freedom. The worst thing you could do is be stuck with one stream of income, working a job or working your business or whatever it might look like; that’s the worst thing you could do. It’s good, I’m grateful you have it, and you should have it, but I will tell you from that experience, especially because I know everything ebb and flows. Eventually, we’ll have a recession at some point, there’ll be changing times, they’ll be hardships. Even if everybody’s prospering, you might have your own personal recession because you might lose a job or lose some income. What can you do to ensure that you have multiple streams of income coming in? I’ll tell you, financial advisors never talk about that. They’re always like, throw your money away from you, walk it up in someplace — you have to have essentially get your hand slapped with a 10% penalty for touching it before you’re 60. That’s horrible advice. Everything should be focused towards how do I develop multiple streams of income, whether it be residual, passive or both?
Joe Fairless: What are some of the main streams of income that you have now?
Chris Miles: Now, I actually go to more turnkey investments rather than trying to manage it myself like before. That was one thing I learned. I like to do turnkey, I like notes, syndications, things of that nature. For the most part, though, I’d say the bulk of my own personal assets, although I tell my clients do what resonates with them most and what feels right for them… I personally love owning real estate, whether it’s multifamily, single-family, whatever. I love owning and controlling it, because if there’s anything in the last recession I learned is that ownership and control is awesome. Syndications are cool too, and I like that. I like that there’s some downside risk protection, and those things can work out too when you have funds and syndications, but I personally love owning and controlling real estate, but have somebody else manage it for me.
Joe Fairless: So you do turnkey, notes, syndications… What is the most profitable within those streams, maybe a specific deal or a note that you invested in or syndication that you’re in?
Chris Miles: The most profitable have actually been my own turnkey properties, just because I’m taking all the depreciation — for one, I’m taking the appreciation. I can do that with syndications too, of course, with certain ones. But definitely with cash flow and growth potential, I’ve definitely seen the best with doing turnkey properties. Secondly, it would definitely be syndications.
I’ll give you an example, because you asked for an example. I had a Memphis property I bought a couple of years ago. I just had it reassessed to say, “Alright, let’s see how the return on equity is right now.” I bought it for $135,000 and now is worth $152,000. I don’t try to bank on appreciation; I learned that the hard way during the last recession, but it’s nice when you get it. Compared to the down payment I put on it, the cash flow that’s come in – the net cash flow, not gross, but the net after all costs are paid, plus the fact that the mortgage has been paid down… Already the property’s gained — out of the $32,000 I came out of pocket with closing costs, I’ve have already gained in the last two years about $26,000 bucks.
Joe Fairless: Any refinance ideas out there, or do you wanna keep it with the current loan?
Chris Miles: That was with the current loan. I looked at refinancing just recently, but the rates weren’t quite low enough to make it worthwhile.
Joe Fairless: Okay.
Chris Miles: Buying them now is awesome, just because the rates are even lower than they were when I got mine, which was around 5.25%. Now they’re in the 4%, which is awesome.
Joe Fairless: Anything about the mindset of how you approach your finances now that you’ve learned some hard lessons and now you’ve got these multiple streams of income, anything else that we haven’t talked about that you think we should before we wrap up?
Chris Miles: Yeah, a few things. One is the one thing I wasn’t doing was tracking my money. When you track money, don’t track like a saver, because savers are in scarcity and scarcity drives away money. Scarcity can never create financial freedom. You can’t live in fear and be financially free, regardless what the numbers say. So you can’t just focus on expenses, like all the savers out there will teach you, like the Dave Ramseys. It’s important to look at that, but look at the income too. Look at both sides of the equation. Look at “How can I increase income, but also be most efficient with my expenses?” and create that big gap between the two, which is what I refer to as cash flow or profit. While doing that, the biggest thing is that I see most people when I talk to them is– because a lot of people say, “Chris, I need an actual game plan or strategy to retire early. Not to do the same old crap that everybody else is telling you to do with mutual funds and 401ks and what not.” Which, by the way, I even did an episode on my show recently, a couple of months ago, that even [unintelligible [00:24:03].29] have the crap kicked out of it with notes, syndications and turnkeys, easily. Even with a [unintelligible [00:24:10].10] which is supposed to be free money, a no-brainer, you can still beat a 401k, especially when it comes to cash flow. So I look at things like saying, “Hey, let’s look at the whole situation. Look at your own numbers and see where do you have equity.” You have equity in your own home, which a lot of people do. Should we cash out, refinance and use that to invest, especially if it’s in something that’s a good legitimate place? I actually have a client who has actually invested with you, Joe, and they’re like, “Yeah, that’s one of my favorite investments, what Joe Fairless has.” I’m like, “I gotta look that guy up.”
Joe Fairless: Yeah, there we go.
Chris Miles: But that stuff, like can we liquidate assets? Can we sell off stuff that’s not doing well? You might have some properties yourself that aren’t– return on equity is low. Maybe we could sell that and make more money. I have a client in California right now, down in San Diego, he had a property in California, which already everyone’s like, “Okay, you have a property California. That’s not worth keeping.” Low cash flow and probably high equity. Between his personal home, which had about $400,000 equity, and this rental property which had about $400,000 in equity after we sell it – even though he’ll lose about $1,500 a month of cash flow, that’s 800k he can use. Now, even if you did the 1% rule, that’s $8,000 a month. So he still nets $6,500 bucks a month or just about 80 grand a year with the same assets he already had in place, and that’s what you want to look at. It’s like, what do I have in savings or in equity and different places that could be used to be more productive than where it is right now?
Joe Fairless: Yeah, I have a friend, he’s local in Cincinnati, and he moved from California and he had a single-family house. He sold it and he bought in Cincinnati, I want to say, a 30 to 50-unit in Cincinnati, and I think he paid all cash. It was just incredible… And it’s not in as nice of an area of Cincinnati, and it was distressed, but the point is, he bought an apartment community. That was a couple years ago, maybe three years ago, and he’s now since, I believe, refinanced and got all that money out and is doing great with it.
Chris Miles: That’s why I always tell people, don’t buy into the whole accumulation mindset of saving and letting your money grow and compound slowly over the next billion years, which it won’t do very well… If you focus more on cash flow and acceleration and utilizing assets to create the biggest bang for your buck… So you’re not asset rich and cash poor.. .Because I’ll tell you, I get so many people that are like Dave Ramsey poster children. People say, “Alright, I just paid off all my debt, and now I have nothing to show for it. I’m now asset rich and cash flow poor.” I was like, “That’s why we’ve got to shift that around. You’ve got to essentially reject some of the stuff that Dave Ramsey taught you. Not everything; a bunch of stuff is great, but everything else that he taught you about wealth and creating retirement and cash flow, don’t buy into it. It’s stupid. You’ve got to shift to a higher level, you’ve got to shift to a higher gear, and that’s when the possibilities in the world opens up.” If I can leave any message with you guys as a last-minute message, I’ll just say that there’s probably a bigger hope than you realize. You probably have a better chance of creating financial independence or financial freedom than you realize is actually possible. You’ve just got to be able to see it with the right set of eyes.
Joe Fairless: Chris, how can the Best Ever listeners learn more about what you’re doing?
Chris Miles: Check out my podcast, The Chris Miles Money Show. You can find it on iTunes or whatever podcast app you use, and also you can check out my website, moneyripples.com.
Joe Fairless: Focusing on multiple streams of income, diversification of those streams of income, and then talking about and learning from your lessons that you learned during the hard times financially, and some tips for should we come across that, or perhaps when we come across it, if we haven’t already, how to navigate that based on your experiences and what you learned. So thank you so much for being on the show. Grateful that you were on the show. Hope you have a best ever weekend. Talk to you again soon.
Chris Miles: Thanks.
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