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JF1622: How To Leave Behind A Legacy & Set Up Heirs For Success #SkillSetSunday with Aaron Chapman

Aaron has been on before, this time he’s talking about how he is setting up his children to succeed after he is gone. This is important for obvious reasons, and some less obvious reasons. Hear why Aaron is doing this, and how he is able to do it for himself, and help others do the same. If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!


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Theo Hicks: Hi, Best Ever listeners, and welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m your host for today, Theo Hicks, as Joe is traveling to Texas right now to look at some apartment deals. Today I’m speaking with a returning guest, Aaron Chapman. Aaron, how are you doing today?

Aaron Chapman: Not too bad, Theo. What’s happening with you, brother?

Theo Hicks: I’m doing great, cannot complain… Although I’m in Florida, and today is pretty cold. I could see my breath outside; that was unexpected.

Aaron Chapman: I like it when that’s happening, especially after I brush my teeth. Then I know for a fact it’s the weather and not me.

Theo Hicks: [laughs] There you go. Today is Sunday, so it is Skillset Sunday. We’re going to talk about a specific skill that can help you with your real estate business… And I’m really looking forward to this conversation today, because we’re going to be talking about legacy. A very common thing – that I’ve heard at least – is that the father makes the business, the son maintains the business, and the grandson loses the business… And obviously, the dad set out to set a legacy for his family, but in the end, in doing so, he kind of ruined his family, because the business was lost within two generations.

So in this podcast we’re going to be talking about how to properly leave a legacy for your children and actually set them up for success. That is going to be the discussion today. Before we get into that, a little bit more about Aaron’s background. He’s a 21-year veteran of real estate investment finance; he is ranked in the top 1% of the industry, and number 12 out of tens of thousands of others nationally for transactions closed. He is based in Mesa, Arizona. As I mentioned, he’s a returning guest, so check out his first episode, which is episode 1537, “Grow a huge real estate business by helping others get what they want.” To say hi to him, you can go to

Before we get into the meat of the  conversation, can you tell us a little bit about what you’ve been focused on since your last interview?

Aaron Chapman: Well, of course my focus as a business structure on the day-to-day basis is helping individuals to accomplish what they want to in their real estate business. Those that are just getting into it, they’ve been reading things online, they’ve been listening to Joe’s podcasts and trying to figure out “How do I go about this? I love that education piece.” That’s what keeps me doing what I do, is having that conversation with people to help them start structuring not just their business, but their mind, get their mind wrapped around the fact that they’re the CEO of a startup real estate investment business, and that there is a way to take that mindset and turn it into a monetary value, and then understand the multi-faceted revenue generated by real estate, and it’s just about cash-on-cash returns, it’s not just about cap rates, there’s so much more there; it’s really an infinite return when they get their head wrapped around it and they realize that I want to be part of their team. I’m looking to be the virtual CFO of their business, help them to look at things from different angles to build that business properly. So that’s my biggest focus – to keep myself out there to an extent that I’m working with more and more investors, and we’re blessed to have a business that generates 700 units a year in actual closed business. That’s what puts me at rank number twelve in units closed in my entire industry, of all the people that are in it, tens of thousands of licensed loan originators.

But the one thing that’s been really getting my attention a lot lately is the fact  that I hear a lot of people getting involved in this business, who develop their real estate business because they want not only to retire themselves, they wanna create that vehicle that will help them to leave their daily job, but they wanna leave a legacy for their family, they wanna leave a legacy for their kids… And then end result that I hear people doing is kind of like we talked about earlier in the introduction – a man creates a business, brings his son up in it, because he watches his dad do all that, and then by the time the grandson gets it, it gets destroyed. We’ve seen that happen in history with kingdoms, pharaohs, kings, you name it. You can look backwards into history where somewhere within a matter of 1-2 generations what was created was actually a very solid, and a big foundation [unintelligible [00:05:43].03] got obliterated by one squandering what was available to them, because they never earned it. They grew up in it, and always had all the benefits of life, and they didn’t realize what it took to keep it, and they definitely didn’t know what it took to earn it. So with all those ideas that [unintelligible [00:06:02].03] and I find myself traveling a lot. I’m in the air at least 2-3 times a month; I got a letter from American Airlines, who I fly mostly, that says that — it’s almost like a congratulatory letter saying that I had traveled enough miles to circle the globe three times over a calendar year (2017). And it was really alarming to me I spent that much time in the air, but – and it was all within continental U.S. – I took that time to really spitball how do I do the same, leave a legacy? Because all the ideas I’d heard before of what legacy might be left very big holes in my mind.

My personal belief is that the greatest legacy is not to leave legacy and net worth, but to leave wealth and knowledge and experience. I quote a lot to people “Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment.” So the experienced gained by verification of truth, through what seems like contiguous errors throughout our lives, has a way of correcting one’s path and  illuminating one’s foundational and financial principles.

What I figured was the most way I could secure and ensure these principles are known and endure is not to just tell my kids and my family, but to live them and put each member of my family in a central role in the daily execution of that whole thought process. So what I did was I developed a trust. Just a normal trust — and I’m still going through all the legals on it with my attorney to ensure we button up all the details of it, but the generalities is this… All my assets go in the trust, and then we used the infinite banking philosophy to fuel this. You guys probably have had people on the show for that, correct?

Theo Hicks: Is that with the life insurance?

Aaron Chapman: Correct. I know I’ve heard that, but then again, you listen to so many shows, you’re like “Who is which anymore…?”, because we listen to so much going on out there… But I have a very close friend who also actually introduced me to yourselves, and kind of made it possible for me to get on the first show – it’s Gary, who does this life insurance, and he does it for me and my family. So what we did is we created six policies – one for me, one for my wife, and one for each of my children. And what it dominoed into was we’re using my policy – I can pull a large sum out of it to fund my investments… And I wanted it to just not be my decision, because eventually these investments are to be taken over by the legacy, by the children. So rather than me just deciding what I should be purchasing, I had my children get involved in the last few purchases we did.

We had to look at the proformas, we had to do a Zoom call with whoever was presenting on it, whoever was making this potential option available, and they had to answer questions with my kids. And it was a really cool opportunity for both sides – one for my children to ask those questions and understand the process a little bit more, and not just get it from dad, and then two, for the person providing the potential investment to be able to refine their presentation at a level that would be understandable to somebody as young as 12 years old. My children range from 12 to 21.

Then what was also very cool was to see the lights turn on in each of their minds as they start seeing what was possible. Then the final benefit is I could tell the person who is gonna be talking to my kids to remember there’s a special place in hell for anybody who lies to kids, so we’ve got that as another protective piece. But how that evolved from that was not just their involvement in understanding the acquisition of the investments and where to put our money too, but also them coming to the knowledge that the requirement for their involvement in this trust – they’re not just gonna be handed a bunch of money or properties or wealth or my death benefit from those life insurance policies when I pass; they have to be qualified beneficiaries of our trust. How I’ve done that is their life insurance policies were purchased by me and put into the trust, and they have a certain requirement as far as the amount of money that has to be put back into them every month – or actually every year, but they have to set it aside every month. It really comes as $5,000/year per child.

Well, that $5,000 equals out to about between $416-$417 a month that they would have to save. The requirement is they have to set aside that amount, $5,000/year or 10% of their income, whichever is greater. That is what makes them a qualified beneficiary, and that has to be done for the rest of their life.

When my kids heard that, it was kind of a shock to them, because when you think about that, $416-$417/month is a lot of money for anybody, not so much kids just now starting jobs and starting life. You can look at the majority of the population; if you tell them “You’ve gotta save $417/month”, that can be difficult for many people. But they had to look at their expenses and their income and decide that it was worth it.

One of my children, my 17-year-old asked me “Why can’t I just save that for myself and just put it in my own bank account and not be involved?” Well, let’s take a look at that. We actually had Gary on a Zoom call, my insurance guy, who did this whole introduction with us; he was there to witness this conversation… And we did the numbers, and that $416 and change actually ended up being somewhere in the range of about $105,000 over a 21-year window. We used 21 years because that’s when I could potentially retire according to the way that the trust is written, at 65. So 21 years from now they will have saved $105,000 in the principal part of it. Any interest that they’d generate, of course, through any bank accounts is gonna be minimal, as we know… And then you throw in inflation.

I started talking with them about the inflation and where the dollar’s value will be 21 years from now, and every year till then, even if it maintains just the 2% that that government claims it is – which we all know it’s higher than that – they have lost money by leaving it in that bank account, because there’s no bank account outpacing inflation.

Well, then we turned it to Gary, and we said “Gary, can you take a look at them doing $5,000/year into this policy, and what that compound effect will be with that interest growing the cash value of that, and tell me what that would look like 21 years from now?” He went and he scrolled down, and it was over $600,000 per policy, just for those $5,000 policies. That was a  very big a-ha moment for the kids, when they realized it’s stretch, it will be tough to set aside $414-$417/month, but then they realized what the power is behind that – it was just a game-changer for them. If I was gonna have them, say, add that all up, it was over 2.4 million dollars that they would have in cash value between just those four children. I said “So that’s the shared policies. Now, I’m settings aside tens of thousands of dollars every year, so does your mom, so can you imagine what those cash values will be? And then we’re also looking at buying multiple different investments every year with these family meetings, as far as real estate investments is concerned, lending investments are concerned, and other types of things; possibly buying notes, or whatever else. Can you imagine what that will do?”

And then you’ve got the generation below us required to bring in $5,000/year, or 10% of their income, whichever is greater, to continue to build this up. So we as an entire family are working together for one central goal; nobody ever gets to touch the principal though. I don’t know how the legals work on all that, my attorney is still working on that, but the principal always stays intact. When the time to retire comes, they’ll only have access to interest that is created, provided they have participated in not only the monetary building of it – the 5k/year or 10%, whichever is greater – and we have to have a monthly meeting to reconcile that, and we’re already doing those, but they also have to be part of the board who votes.

Then once it gets bigger, a couple generations in they’re gonna probably have to designate somebody to vote as a proxy, as a board member, because a board can only have so many people or it’ll become just a madhouse. So there’s gonna be a heavy structure for this, and my belief is if we can start that process now, with everybody I work with – and my goal is to have this built, have it arranged, have it created with all the legal necessity; it will be a bloodline, dynasty-style trust, to keep it within the bloodline, and if I can get everybody I work with to do this, can you imagine what the world’s landscape will look like for generations to come, when right now we have nothing but fear of what the next generation will bring, because they’re not being taught anything but theory; there’s no real practical application of any subject that I’m seeing in the schools today. But if we can employ this -and I work with thousands of investors – my goal is to take it to all  of them and say “Here you go. Just talk to my attorney, let him scratch out the name, put yours in, and pay him whatever that little fee is, and let’s just move forward. Let’s change the world’s landscape financially.”

Theo Hicks: That’s a wonderful strategy, and you went into extreme detail on exactly what one needs to do to get started, with numbers and everything. A couple follow-up questions –  you mentioned family meetings; is that something that you do on a weekly basis?

Aaron Chapman: At least once a month. Now, we’ve got four kids; one’s a sixth grade, one’s a senior in high school, and two are working, one lives outside the home – it makes it tough to get everybody on the same page; you can’t always get all parties there at once, so we try and have at least once a month. It’s either a Sunday or a Monday, because that’s the days my son is off work. He works for FedEx, loading airplanes, which I’m just damn proud of him; he’s doing very, very well… And we’re able to get us all together and I’m trying to schedule calls  ahead of time with people that have investment opportunities out there, so they can interview them, as we meet about the goals coming forth for the next month, and where we sit today as our current structure – I’m also working that out as part of the package to be handed out, as “Here’s how the meeting structure will be.” We’re figuring that out right now.

Right now if we just get together, that’s a good thing. We get to talk about what we want to have happen, and then we’re gonna reconcile the income that we have, and we’re gonna reconcile the assets that we have now, what are the expenses… We’re gonna treat like a full-on business, and all my income right now is really what’s fueling that business, because I need to fuel it as much as I possibly can, because I’m the one retiring first. And I was planning on doing that anyway, I was planning on creating that for myself anyway, so by 65 I could question whether or not I wanted to really hang up my headset and not be involved in this anymore, but what I’ve found is I don’t see me quitting doing what I do. I just keep evolving this into being further and further hands-off on the nuts and bolts of my day-to-day, but more on the creation of the mindset for those who I work with. That’s what gets me excited about what I do and gets me to the office every single day, is the lives that we’re changing every time I get on the phone.

So the way I figured — I don’t know that I’m gonna retire. I figured “If I’m coming to the grave, I’m coming in hot and I’m gonna work all the way through…” But I’m gonna use the majority of my energy to keep fueling the future, so when I do decide to stop, I will have an enormous amount that will continue to create the daily living expenses to be handled and then whatever it is I wanna do, and I don’t ever look to take more than half of whatever interest is generated by the trust. That’s what I wanna be able to live off of, and very comfortably off of half… So when my children reach that same age, they can only take half of whatever is being generated at their time, so the other is left there to keep building it. They have to be able to divide that equally amongst them, so each will only get an eighth of whatever the interest is… And then of course when they pass, and when I pass, our deaths’ benefit is gonna come and fuel even more, put a big chunk in there to compensate for that half of interest that did not grow because we were living off of that.

We also don’t wanna take it out just to take it out. If I don’t the half interest, I leave it in there, keep it growing there; why take the money if I don’t need it, right?

Theo Hicks: Exactly. What age do you think people should start doing this? Not for them, but for their kids.

Aaron Chapman: I don’t think there’s a reason that they shouldn’t start now. It’s probably something you have to talk to your life insurance specialist. I always recommend Gary Pinkerton over at Paradigm Life, for people to talk to him, because he’s just a very intelligent man and he cares a lot… But he would be able to possibly help in that answer, too… But the earliest you could put life insurance on somebody… I’m thinking — if I knew about this before, I would have put $1,000 on each of them when they were born, if I could. Well, if I’d been paying on that, now that my son is 21, can you imagine what would be there right now in cash value? Because $1,000 does not require a lot of upkeep. That’s a $1,000 policy as your first purchase, and with these infinite banking type policies probably $900 would have been available to use at that time, so I never would have lost anything. You just have to pay the premiums every year, which is probably pennies compared to what I’m paying now, and it would have made all the difference in the world.

So I would say anybody who’s potentially thinking whatsoever about legacy, look at this, because the money is still available to you [unintelligible [00:18:23].20] Investigate it, understand it. I’m not a life insurance salesman, I don’t know enough about it to say what it will do. I just am going from the perspective of “This is what I’m doing” and “This is why I’m excited.” I’m literally spitting in the phone when I’m telling people about this because of how excited I get about it, and the potential for the future.

In fact, it was one of the most awesome things I had this week – I got up early one morning and I was working out, and I got a text from Gary at like [5:30] in the morning. He’s over on the East Coast. And he said something — I don’t have my phone in front of me, because I put it away when I’m on these podcasts, but he said something to the effect of “I wish we all could have somebody so young asking such intelligent questions. You should be very proud.” And as I looked up, he shot me a screenshot of his phone where we had had a family meeting the night before, and we were talking about how to manage multiple properties, and I had mentioned how Gary has quite a few, and there was another client that my daughter brought up that also has quite a few, who’s a friend of the family… And I said, “Well, you guys should reach out to them, talk to them. We’ll set up a meeting where you can talk to them and ask them about their structure and how they go about managing this, so we have a better idea, so we’re not having to reinvent the wheel, just take the best from others.” And literally, my 12-year-old Maggie texted Gary right there saying “Sorry it’s late, but I have some questions for you” and hammered out all the questions out to him.

One, I thought it was just absolutely awesome that she’d be confident enough in Gary to ask that question… A 12-year-old, for crap’s sake. And then for Gary to be gracious enough to answer her questions, and then to forward it on to me. It literally brought  a tear to my eye that my children are thinking that way even at 12 years old. And what she asked was extremely intelligent, and it tells me that there is a good solid chance my legacy will not only be secure, but it will endure.

Theo Hicks: Exactly. The key to this strategy is the people aspect, and making sure that you’re – training is not the right word, but maybe it is – your siblings and your significant other to think in the long-term… Because it definitely is a long-term strategy, which is probably why most people are hesitant of doing it, because you’re not gonna see that — as you mentioned when you were giving examples, you’re not gonna see that massive increase in value for decades… But just thinking about more than just yourself, thinking about your children, your grandchildren, their grandchildren, and setting them up for success, but also making sure they actually have to earn it, rather than just giving it away to them, which is kind of the key to this entire strategy.

Aaron Chapman: Exactly. And one of the things about it that makes it easier to endure the long haul that this is – this is definitely a marathon approach – is the monthly meetings, or bi-weekly, whatever timeframe you set that up… Is to go back and review where you’re at today. One, it’s a solid bond-builder with your kids. People talk about the time with their children, whether it’s out playing catch, or whatever – I get all that; you definitely want that. But talk about an awesome relationship is to let your kids into your financial mind is a big deal… And I open up the books. They look at all, they get to see what I make, they get to see what’s going on… And the really interesting thing about cracking open the books of what my income is, was my kids were like “Well, why do we live in this house? Why don’t we have a little mansion, or something like that?” And I started cracking up and said “Because I’m not gonna pay that kind of money so you get to break everything in that. You guys are gonna break everything here and I’ll move into the mansion later.”

So it’s just kind of interesting the dynamic that comes when you start cracking open those books, but then that also makes them conscious about the saving aspect of it, because they get to look at the future. When you have a person like Gary there to illustrate what that future looks like, and we can spitball that future together, your spending habits become better. You decide “Do we really wanna go to dinner tonight as a family, or do we wanna eat in?” and we wanna look at our portfolio and talk about that. Now, it’s not sexy, of course. You definitely wanna set aside and budget going out and spending that time together as a family, going to Disneyland, but it’s not so impulsive anymore; it changes the impulsiveness… Because humans are really subject to several things – we’re subject to impulse, because we’ll just do crazy things on a whim. We’re also subject to habit, and it was written by Og Mandino that you need to create good habits and become their slave. This is one of those good habits. It’s not only going to really secure the impulse part of you, that human nature and suppress that more because you have this kind of habit, but now you have created the habit and you do become a slave to good habits, because you’re gonna have a habit of some sort; you might as well make it a healthy habit, whether it be working out, and also good financial habits, and you create those with your children, too. That also helps you to set those goals and stretch because it’s easier to stretch on a goal when you’ve got multiple people pulling for the same goal. It dominoes into other things. “What am I reading? Why am I reading that?” and I have my children read the same thing, so we’re all speaking on the same plain and have a very similar language when it comes to these things.

So it’s multi-faceted. It’s not just about the trust, it’s not just about the future. It also helps relationships, it sets good habits, and it puts us in a bond that really is different than any other opportunity you’re ever gonna have with your children as far as bond building, because this will endure forever. It’s not gonna be “Remember those days, dad, when we used to have time to go play basketball together?” It’s not like this is gonna go away. This is gonna be an enduring meeting that we’re gonna have throughout our entire lives, monthly. With technology being what it is, we’re gonna have the meeting — if we’re on different sides of the earth we can have the meeting together, so it’s a beautiful thing.

Theo Hicks: Well, Aaron, this is an amazing Skillset Sunday. This is a great skill that literally anyone can apply to their lives, even if they really don’t have a family and they don’t plan on having a family, they can still apply this with themselves or their significant other, themselves and their friends… Also it sounds like it’s best applied to the family.

Just to kind of summarize what we went over – it was definitely a lot, so relisten to this podcast and apply these lessons. Essentially, what you’re doing is you’re setting up a trust, all of your assets go into this trust, and you are using the infinite banking life insurance to fuel this trust. You’ve got six policies, one policy for each of your family, which you use to actually fund your investments, but the key here is that your kids have to actually be qualified to earn that money, and right now that qualification is $5,000/year or 10% of their income, whichever is higher. That’s for the rest of their lives. Even when they get to the point where they can access those funds, they’re only touching the interest, while that principle remains to continue to grow that legacy.

You talked about the family meetings that occur once a month, and the multiple benefits of that. The biggest one, at least for me, was that bond you get with your family that you can’t really get any other ways… Plus I’m sure it’s nice to have super-smart kids that are asking really smart questions. Then you mentioned during these meetings — you’re updating it and changing it, but it sounds like you talk about what’s currently going on financially for everyone, and it’s an opportunity for your kids to learn and grow.

Aaron Chapman: Yeah, you’ve pretty much kept the whole thing. Now, there’s other little strategies we’re using within it, so that is the big, huge overview – the ability to take those funds and ensure you’re putting it somewhere, and ensure that you’ve got the next purchase coming up, and where to borrow it… We’re still learning all those things; we’ve found a pretty good system on that that I’d love to share with folks when we get that opportunity to have those one-on-one conversations.

The other part of it is you don’t have to think of this, you don’t have to figure this out. I’m doing it now. Because like I’ve just said before, the good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment. I am exercising the judgment, albeit I pray that it’s all good judgment, but I’m sure we’re gonna step on something, I’m sure we’re gonna make a mistake, and we’re gonna learn from it, and I’m gonna use that as a way to help build this out, so people have an outline, a format to start doing this for themselves. You don’t have to reinvent this wheel, let me get the wheel done. Let me get it built.

I’m paying my  attorneys and others to get this all completely done to where I can hand this off to folks when I’m working with them, and help them build their investment business and their legacy all together, because I am very concerned about the future generations coming up… And I want my children to be secure, and I want everybody else to be secure. There’s no reason why we shouldn’t be. I really think what it boils down to is the majority of people don’t have enough faith in themselves and their capability, but once we’ve built the framework, and you can literally start with baby steps and see how that future’s gonna be, I think that there can be just a little bit more faith in what their future is gonna be than what they have right now.

Theo Hicks: Exactly. Again, I appreciate you coming on the show. Very informative and also very inspiring. Make sure you check out to learn more about this strategy. Aaron, have a best ever day, and we’ll talk to you soon.

Aaron Chapman: Much appreciated, Theo.

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JF1537: Grow A Huge Real Estate Business By Helping Others Get What They Want with Aaron Chapman

Aaron has been in the finance space for over 20 years, and has been in real estate for a long time too. One of Aaron’s goals and visions is to help as money other real estate investors grow a business that can allow them to live more comfortably, retire, take more vacations, or whatever it is they want to do. Hear how he has been helping others achieve that while also growing his own business. If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!


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Aaron Chapman Real Estate Background:

  • 21 year veteran of finance industry
  • Rated as part of the top 1% nationally and ranked #12 in 2017 by Scotsman Guide for units closed in Real Estate Finance industry wide
  • Specializes in financing for the real estate investor, aiding in the analysis and structure of multiple financed properties
  • Based in Mesa, AZ
  • Say hi to him at
  • Best Ever Book: Master Key System

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Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff. With us today, Aaron Chapman. How are you doing, Aaron?

Aaron Chapman: Not too bad. How are you doing, Joe?

Joe Fairless: I am doing well, and nice to have you on the show. A little bit about Aaron – he is a 21-year vet of the finance industry. He is rated 1% nationally and ranked number 12 in 2007 by Scotsman Guide for units closed in real estate finance. Based in Mesa, Arizona. With that being said, Aaron, do you wanna give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and your current focus?

Aaron Chapman: Definitely. So that tells you how I bread my table, as far as doing the real estate investing finance. I finance people buying turnkeys mostly, from single-family up to four units; we’ve  opened up a lot of other channels with our relationships for others types of financing for folks, but my main objective in life though is to help people get away from where they have channeled themselves into a rut and help them reach beyond what they’re doing, and try and become a little bit more than what they have become up to this point, because most of the time people hold themselves back. So that’s one of my main focuses in life, taking each person who’s considering real estate and helping them to become the CEO of their real estate finance business.

In addition to that  – of course, that business is being very successful, as you pointed out, ranked number 12 in the United States for units closed last year, and we’re doing between 600 and 700 units a year… So it offers me a lot of experience for people to be able to pull from. In addition to that, my wife and I both volunteered with the Sheriff’s Office locally, and we do several hundred hours a year in the rescue unit. I’m in charge of the technical rescue unit, [unintelligible [00:04:27].07] rescue unit, as well as the air rescue unit. So if I’m in town, if I’m not traveling, any given time during the cooler months we could be flown out into the desert or the mountains around Arizona and have to rappel into a very rough situation, and take care of somebody medically or however, and have them pulled out of one of the worst experiences of their life. I have a lot of cool war stories with that, that we’ve been able to participate over the last nine years.

I have four children that I’m also working with to become very versed in real estate investments. I have built my trust around making them responsible for what investments we go in as a family, and also making my children responsible for participating in the trust, to build it to the extent that when they turn 65, they at least have something to pull from in the form of interest. They will never touch the principal; this is built in a way to make them responsible members of society, to take care of themselves, and if they don’t participate and they don’t help build that, they don’t get any of it. I’m not just gonna leave a bunch of well-funded drudges of society.

Joe Fairless: [laughs] Well, our kids and grandkids thank you for that. A couple of things to talk about… One is – it’s gonna be a tough question to answer, but answer to the best of your ability… You closed between 600 and 700 units in 2017; if you didn’t have that larger purpose of helping people become the CEO of their own real estate finance business, how many units would you have closed?

Aaron Chapman: I really truly believe it would be between 100 and 200 units, because I have been stuck at that level for years, until I opened my mind up. I had to sit down and literally write down my vision for my future, and do it in a way that really I can emotionally and I could mentally really put myself in it. So every time I read it, I could feel it, I could smell it, I could be there.

The majority of it had to do with my ability to matter to other people to the extent that they matter to themselves. As I had developed that part of myself, I started to see things continue to grow. It went from 100-200 units to over 300 units when I started incorporating that, to over 400. Then I wrote another vision to try and reach 600 in the beginning part of 2017. Then that vision created a whole bunch of other things, and it sparked from there, it jumped up over 600 units, and this year I’m on track for 700+.

Joe Fairless: I’m glad I asked that question, and that you were at 100-200 units before you had that vision… So when you’re at 100-200 units, then there’s a vision, and then there are the results that got you to where you are now, in between the vision and the results what were some of the tactics that were implemented that led to those results?

Aaron Chapman: Well, the main tactic was standing in Chipotle, getting lunch with my one employee back in 2014… And it was back before the E.Coli thing or whatever that was that happened with Chipotle back in ’15 or ’16… But as I stood there, the line was all the way to the door, so I had to do something to entertain myself, and I was looking around the store itself (the restaurant, if you will), and I started counting the heads behind the counter. Have you ever remembered back in like 2013, 2014, 2015, walking into a very busy Chipotle, and counting how many people were working there?

Joe Fairless: There’s a lot.

Aaron Chapman: Yeah, most people will say five or six, because that’s what they see, but when you start looking beyond it, the people behind the counter, into the back, I counted 11 different heads. So what I started trying to do as I stood in that line is understand the role of each person in that particular system that they had built, and I realized and I found it interesting that they need 11 people to build a burrito successfully, yet I only had two people building an intricate financial instrument. So in that position I was in in line, I started creating for myself an 11-person assembly line for financing a piece of real estate. Now I have 11 people working for me, doing exactly that.

Then the next step was I read the book The Goal, from Eliyahu Goldratt. He talks about efficiencies; I took some of the principles from that and applied it to our process. He talks about an assembly line using CNC machines, because these machines can only go so fast; no matter how fast you turn them up, they can only go a certain speed, so that is the bottleneck. He had found in this story about this efficiency that the plant manager had noticed that there was a lot of the parts that were being cut by these machines that were thrown off to the side because they didn’t meet the quality inspection… And after further investigation, a part of that quality inspection was an X-ray of the material itself, and found that there were flaws in the raw material. So he moved the X-ray to the front of the line instead of the back.

So what I did is I took my best and most seasoned — her name is Ellen; she’s been doing this I think for 35 years… And I put her at the very front. Instead of being my best process, returning the biggest load and being able to handle 100 transactions at the time, I put her at the front as looking at every single transaction in every pre-qual before it got to a processor, and before they personally even made an offer on a property, to ensure that that X-ray was done and that the raw material was 100% usable before we went and spent anybody’s time. And that also sped up our process significantly.

And then also being open to always improving the process. We are never done improving. If you ever feel that you have the perfect process, you are right now on your first step towards failure.

Joe Fairless: The 11-person assembly line doing your deals – is it 11 because at the time when you were at Chipotle you saw 11 people back there?

Aaron Chapman: I created that process to mirror the Chipotle system I saw, and literally have 11 jobs that they do… And albeit some of it is duplicated, because you also have to have some redundancy in the system in case somebody goes on vacation, so there’s a lot of redundancy built in as well, but it just works out that I wrote down 11 in my vision and I have 11.

Joe Fairless: As best as you can, can you break down those 11 people, and what they do?

Aaron Chapman: Sure. Initially — I won’t get into the 12th, because I would make the 12th… I have the very first conversation with the potential real estate investor, and help them with their mindset to go from a consumer spending money and going into debt, to now a business owner. They are the CEO of their real estate investment firm, and I work to help them understand how they are moving from a person trying to get the best and cheapest to going after the quality to build a business. And at that time, I’m applying for their CFO position, and we walk through the experience that I have and the different methods and things that I have seen, and the people that I’ve seen make mistakes, because good judgment comes from experience, and  experience comes from bad judgment… And they don’t need to go through the process of gaining experience from making mistakes to learn where is the best path, where you can take from the people that I’ve worked with over the last 21 years.

Joe Fairless: When you say you’re applying for the CFO position, I get that’s a metaphor, but for me, when I’m thinking of a CFO, they’re gonna be overseeing the financials on a monthly basis, to make sure that the property is profitable. Do you do that, or are you securing the loan for them and then they are off and running?

Aaron Chapman: What we do there — I do of course secure the loans. The loan is how we make our capital here. But as far as their financial position, we help them review where they are financially, personally, and how they can take what they have and help them structure their finances in a way to be successful on the acquisition of that real estate, and then the expansion of that business. Then as they come around each year, we will do as the clients want. It’s not something that we just reach in and start messing with their stuff; as they wanna call a board meeting, we can schedule some time to spend a half hour or an hour on a call (or a Zoom call)  and review their finances and see how things are progressing.

After each transaction, we re-review their finances after they closed on that, update what they need for the next transaction, where they need to be financially, where they’re at at that time… So yes, we do a continuous review of things as they’re purchasing and building.

Joe Fairless: Got it. Okay. So one is you, and then what?

Aaron Chapman: The next step is they are directed to complete their online application. That’s necessary, because the government says you have to do certain acknowledgments. So they’ll prepare that application and submit that over. One of my team members will download that, review it and they will send them to the next step, which is where to upload their data and exactly what data is needed. So they’re not lost, they’re not trying to figure out where to go from there, we lead them to that additional step.

Once that all comes in and it’s reviewed and we have enough data there, it goes to Ellen, who is, again, my quality control, my X-ray, if you will. She is going to review all that and go to the pre-qual process, almost like an underwrite of their file. Then she brings me in and we review it with her, to be sure that I as the licensed loan originator have reviewed it, and then we’ll issue either a pre-qual letter to that person, or we’ll tell them, “Hey, we need other things to move forward”, or we’ll direct them otherwise. But if they’re qualified at that point, we issue that letter we send that out to them, they’ll go find a piece of real estate that fits their business needs.

That contract comes to us and it goes to a specific team. I have two people that will review that contract. One or the other will review it. As they review it, they look for certain elements. Those elements are confirmed with the seller and the buyer to ensure accuracy, because many times there might have been further negotiation in the form of an additional addendum or something to that effect that gets missed in the original sent to us, or somebody mistyped something… So we confirm those elements that would cause any sort of delay in the process. Once those confirmations are complete, the file is set up, all the disclosures are sent out by the next individual, and then assigned to their processor, who is their main point of contact going forward, and we do the introduction to that processor. That processor then will reach out to the client, introduce herself, explain the timeframe that she’s gonna need to review and submit that for approval. She’ll get that in for an initial approval. Once the approval comes back, she reaches back out to the client and updates whatever is necessary, orders an appraisal, takes it to closing.

Once that loan is completely approved and ready to close, another person steps in and takes that person through closing – sets up their signing, ensures they have the documents they need, and once that signing is done, they review it, ensure that it closes and funds, and then they will then follow  back up with them, go over their pre-qual again, make sure they’re qualified for the next purchase, what their finances need to look like for that next purchase, and then give them all the information they need to have available for them for their taxes for the next year on that property, as well as what they need to make their first payment, where that gets made to, and then gives them all the information they need to communicate with us should they run into any issues.

Joe Fairless: What’s been two enhancements you’ve had to that process since you’ve began it?

Aaron Chapman: One was putting Ellen into that role, because before she was carrying a lot of the other weight. That was probably the biggest enhancement. The next was the follow-up after closing, creating a whole new pre-qual for them, re-evaluating their file after it’s closed, and making it a live operating file for them, and then giving them basically a calculator that will show them what they need to close on the next transaction, where their finances are today as far as their assets, and whether they’re lacking and they need to save a little bit more, or whether or not they have plenty to do that. Now, if they have enough, we’ll show them “You can do four, five, six, seven transactions”, and show them what their capability is, and kind of coach them where they need to go from there.

Joe Fairless: What type of ongoing communication do you have – or system set up where you communicate with your clients on a regular basis. Really it’s just built into a system that gives its — I’ll call it like a database management system. They’ll reach out to each client on a regular basis, whether it be milestones in their life, milestones within their business… Also when I have speaking engagements – we were just in what was called The Cashflow Wealth Summit, where we had filmed a presentation and then people could watch it virtually (it was about 45 minutes), and we’ll get that out to our database as well… So anytime there’s something that’s happening in our world that we think people would benefit from, we make sure that goes out to them.

Joe Fairless: From a business standpoint with what you’ve learned in 21 years in the industry, what are some mistakes that you were making at the beginning that you’ve since corrected?

Aaron Chapman: Treating people like a consumer. When I got into the industry, I crawled out of the mines in New Mexico. They were shutting down the mines and I had lost that job. Before that, I ran heavy equipment, drove truck, worked in the oil fields of Wyoming, I was on a [unintelligible [00:16:51].17] crew, I grew up on a cattle ranch, so I had a lot of experience in manual labor in different specific types of labor, and I was trying to find a job in those fields and I couldn’t. And there’s even a deeper story here, but ultimately a friend of mine introduced me to this and I started as a telemarketer. But when I started doing the actual lending piece of it, the broker I worked for had the capability to advertise on billboards actual interest rates, the first person in the state of Arizona’s history. But he would advertise a rate that was not really achievable at the time, but it got the phone to ring.

It was really irritating a lot of people when they’d call in off of what they saw on the sign, but then what we were giving them was different. I went to him and said “Dude, you really need to take that billboard down.” He goes, “No. My job is to get the phone to ring, and your job is to sell it.” I said, “Okay, well they want this rate.” He goes, “Well, give them what they want.” I said, “But they get frustrated when I show them the cost.” He goes, “They don’t need to know the cost till the end.” That right there, that lesson learned — because I tried to follow his lead for just a couple of deals and literally, come the closing day, I’d have to have my back in the corner and hold it back, because people were angry with us. And I learned you can’t treat people that way.

This whole thing of treating them like a consumer, trying to get butts into seats, like a really good movie trailer for a really sucky movie, is wrong. We need to paint a better picture. So I started evolving in that respect, and I found that it actually in some cases can be detrimental to paint a real picture up front [unintelligible [00:18:14].04] sometimes a little bit worse picture than reality… I tend to paint a worse picture than reality. I like to go worst-case-scenario with folks, and then tell them “Trust me, we’re gonna make it better for you.”

But my contemporaries like to come in as low as they possibly can legally just to get their butts in the seats, and then they end up showing the real deal at the end, and it’s very similar to where I would be. There’s no real difference out there. There’s very few that have lower fees and lower costs; we’re all fairly the same. But it’s the expectation set up front.

So I learned about setting expectations properly, because I respect those who I work with enough to not lie to them about that in the very beginning.

Joe Fairless: What’s your best real estate investing advice ever?

Aaron Chapman: Find the right team. If you do not have confidence in the people you’re working with, 100% confidence that they have your best interest in mind and that these people are not out for themselves, then you’re putting yourself at risk. Each person investing in real estate, whether it be commercial, whether it be fix and flips, whether it be residential, long-term holds, and doing the turnkeys, which is where we spend a lot of our time – no matter who it is, you’re gonna have to have a team, no matter what process you’re doing. And if you are not interested in that person’s success and they’re interested in your success, then you’re stepping towards a very extreme failure. Getting the right people onboard and making sure they’re the right type of people makes all the difference in the world.

Joe Fairless: We’re gonna do a lightning round. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?

Aaron Chapman: Let’s give it a shot. You may end up hearing just crickets on the other end.

Joe Fairless: [laughs] I doubt that, but we’ll give it a shot. First though, a quick word from our Best Ever partners.

Break: [00:19:53].27] to [00:20:36].16]

Joe Fairless: Okay, best ever book you’ve recently read?

Aaron Chapman: That would be The Master Key System by Charles Haanel.

Joe Fairless: What was that book earlier you mentioned, the Goal book?

Aaron Chapman: The Goal, by Eliyahu Goldratt.

Joe Fairless: Best ever deal you’ve worked on, for whatever reason?

Aaron Chapman: It would have to be really just every turnkey; when a person successfully closes, the excitement that they get from being able to get involved in the real estate investment world, in a place where they never thought they could be… Honestly, all very similar; they’re great opportunities for folks.

Joe Fairless: What’s a mistake you’ve made on a transaction that we haven’t talked about?

Aaron Chapman: That’s a solid question, because there’s a lot of them. Really, it was underestimating my team. This was the worst mistake I’ve ever made. Thinking that I was the individual that needed to be involved in everything. When I realized that I didn’t need to do it all, that I need to get very good people that I could trust to handle those things and then let them do that, that was the best move I ever made. The worst thing was discounting their capabilities, because what ended up happening was I was stealing opportunities from them. When I realized when I did those things I stole somebody else’s job from them… And then another person, because it took time away from me to be able to build my business, instead of working on the business and then providing more jobs, I was stealing one job, therefore stealing a second one, because my time was sucked up.

Joe Fairless: Best ever way you like to give back?

Aaron Chapman: Taking the time to encourage another person that their positive thoughts will have a positive reaction, and feeding them to the places I’ve come to those conclusions myself. Sometimes it will take an hour/an hour and a half of my time to have those conversations, but when you hear the light bulb go on in the other individual, there is nothing better.

Joe Fairless: And how can the Best Ever listeners get in touch with you and learn more about what you’ve got going on?

Aaron Chapman: The absolute best place is It should always be that. And then they can also check me out on the NMLS, so they can see that I’m licensed, in what states I am. For that, they can go to the NMLS consumer access page, and my NMLS ID is 267844.

Joe Fairless: Well, thank you so much for being on the show, talking about the larger purpose that you have, and the vision that you have, and how having that vision has resulted in increased business, as well as just a more enjoyable experience along the way.

One tactic from that vision in order to accomplish those results was creating your 11-person assembly line in real estate, just like you had that epiphany whenever you were in Chipotle and you started counting those workers. I loved how you walked us through each person and the responsibility, as well as how you’ve enhanced that along the way, putting one of your all-stars instead of at the end, putting her at the beginning of the process.

Thanks again for being on the show. I hope you have a Best Ever day, and we’ll talk to you soon.

Aaron Chapman: Thank you, Joe. I appreciate  you, man.

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building your real estate brand with Camberley Woods

JF1293: Using Facebook Live To Build Your Real Estate Brand #SkillSetSunday with Camberley Woods

Camberley wanted to know everything about Facebook Live once it launched. As a Facebook marketer since 2007, she knew that Facebook live was going to be huge. Now she helps others market on Facebook via Facebook live. Get some fantastic tips from a Facebook expert in this episode! If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!


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Camberley Woods Background:

  • Runs an online marketing agency specializing in content marketing, social media, & Facebook advertising
  • When Facebook Live launched in 2016, decided she wanted to learn everything she could about this tool
  • She teaches people how to grow their influence & sale their products/services using Facebook Live.
  • In two short years, she grew her agency to multiple 6 figures & never spent a dime on paid advertisements
  • Based in Mesa, Arizona
  • Say hi to her at


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Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing?  Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff.

First off, because it is the weekend, I hope you’re having a best ever weekend… Today is Sunday, so since it’s Sunday, we do a special segment called Skillset Sunday where you’re going to come away from this conversation with a brand new skill, or perhaps a skill that you will hone even more so than what you currently have at your disposal. We’re gonna be talking about Facebook, and specifically Facebook Live, and how to get the most out of Facebook Live, as well as the changes that took place this year with Facebook and how that will impact you as you build your brand on Facebook.

With us to talk about that is our Facebook Live expert – how are you doing, Camberley Woods?

Camberley Woods: I am doing great. I’m so excited to be here!

Joe Fairless: Yeah, nice to have you on the show. We’re excited to have you on the show. A little bit about Camberley – she runs an online marketing agency specializing in content marketing, social media and Facebook advertising. When Facebook Live launched in 2016, she decided she wanted to learn everything about this tool… So she did, and she teaches people how to grow their influence and sell their products and services using Facebook Live. She is based in Mesa, Arizona. With that being said, do you wanna give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you’re focused on?

Camberley Woods: Yeah. As you mentioned, one of my big focuses has been Facebook, and I’ve been helping clients with Facebook marketing since 2007, so for quite a while now. And I have watched all of the changes that have happened on Facebook, and the different ways they have dished up content to people in their news feed… And I started to notice that video was taking huge precedence over other types of content back in 2016, and then Facebook launched Facebook Live.
My initial reaction was “This is awesome. I obviously need to get involved with Facebook Live”, and I’ve totally geeked out. I have gotten super techie with the tech tools I’m using, but more importantly than that, I’ve gotten really smart and strategic about my strategy with Facebook Live.

Joe Fairless: Please elaborate on smart and strategic with strategy on Facebook Live.

Camberley Woods: I am really passionate about making sure the content that I put on Facebook Live is something that my ideal customer wants. It’s something that they don’t realize they’re already having questions about in their head. For example, I know that a lot of my followers have questions around “How do I add captions to my Facebook Live videos?” So as I noticed that I’m getting lots of questions around that, then I start creating lots of content all about just the captions on Facebook Live.

Then I try to take that person who is watching my caption video and then convert them into an e-mail lead, or I push them into my Facebook group… So I use my Facebook Live as a starting point for my conversation, and then I send them down a different path with e-mail, Facebook groups and that sort of thing.

Joe Fairless: So it’s your front door, it’s a way to welcome them, and then once you welcome them, then you let them into your home and then you talk to them about other things.

Camberley Woods: Yes, and I love how you’re using home analogies.

Joe Fairless: [laughs] You know what, I didn’t do that because there are real estate investors who are listening, but maybe subconsciously I did, I don’t know.

Camberley Woods: So you hit on a really key point earlier in the podcast, and that is this year Facebook changed how content is getting served up into our news feeds. In the past, Facebook tried to predict what they thought was relevant content for Joe. They may say “Okay, Joe is interested in real estate, obviously.” Joe, I don’t know if you’re interested in exercise, but maybe you were a weight-lifter and you’re into protein drinks; maybe you’re into cars and motorcycles, and Facebook would try to figure out who is Joe, what types of content does he like – we’re gonna put that in his news feed.

Well, Facebook changed that approach. Now they are building your news feed based on relationships. This means they know Joe’s mom is Patty — I don’t know your mom…

Joe Fairless: Her names is Pat [unintelligible [00:07:15].10]

Camberley Woods: Stop it!

Joe Fairless: Yup, yup…

Camberley Woods: That’s creepy. So they may say “Okay, Pat is Joe’s mom, so we’re gonna put Pat in his news feed. We know that Sam is Joe’s great friend from high school, and occasionally he likes his photos and he comments on them, so we’re gonna put Sam into Joe’s news feed.” Now, when this change was made, Facebook came out and stated that the reach Facebook pages we’re gonna see was going to drop, and the only way your page was going to have good reach is if you generate conversations with your followers and you build relationships with them. One of the ways that you can do this is through live video.

In fact, live videos get six times more interaction than pre-recorded video, and they get more comments and engagement than a photo post, or a link post. So if we’re trying to think of ways to get into people’s news feeds, we obviously know it’s gonna come down to conversations that build relationships, and live video is one of the best platforms for doing this.

Joe Fairless: How much is too much live video?

Camberley Woods: I don’t think you can do too much, as long as you’re providing value. Some people may have a hard time providing value, but you’ve got to show up on Facebook Live and you’ve gotta educate, or you’ve gotta entertain. Or I’ve heard that term where it’s edutainment – a blend of educate and entertainment. If you’re showing up on Facebook Live with that in mind and you’re a great storyteller, then I don’t think there is too much.

Joe Fairless: What if you are naturally someone who can inform, but it doesn’t come naturally for you to entertain?

Camberley Woods: One of the hardest things to watch are people who try to entertain and that’s just not them. You hurt for them, you’re like —

Joe Fairless: But they probably get more views because it is so awkward and tough to watch.

Camberley Woods: Yeah, that’s a really good point. But as long as they show up and the information they’re providing is valuable to their followers – maybe it’s a fear their followers have, it’s a pain point, or it’s uplifting to them — if they’re showing up and providing that type of value, they don’t really need to be entertaining. It’s just a bonus if you can blend the two.

Joe Fairless: Is that unique to Facebook Live, or is that thought process of “Is this information valuable to my followers?” applicable to other marketing tactics?

Camberley Woods: Oh yeah, this is applicable to all content marketing. Your content has to help your follower in some way, and at the same time your content needs to align with your product or service… Because if your content does not align with your product and service, then there’s a disconnect for your audience when you actually get in front of them and approach them with an offer. So when you are creating content for live video or any other type of content – e-mail, a landing page – you need to have at the front of your mind the fact that your content needs to provide value, and it’s gotta align with your product and services, and occasionally you need to tell your story, so that people can connect with you and build that relationship.

Joe Fairless: With Facebook Live, what are some tips for actually executing a successful Facebook Live video? More nitty-gritty stuff, assuming that we know “Hey, I’ve gotta add value, and ideally I educate and entertain”? Now that I know that, what about some tactical things?

Camberley Woods: I have lots of tactical things. So the first thing is when you get onto Facebook Live, jump right into your topic at first. When I hop on Facebook Live, I will state “On this video, I’m going to teach you ________” so the viewer, whether they’re live or watching the recording, knows exactly what they’re gonna learn on that live video.

Then I give my little bio. My little bio is just a couple sentences long, but it paints my expertise as it relates to my content. For example, with me having owned an online marketing agency and having marketed on Facebook since 2007, if people know those facts, then they already know “Oh, she knows her shizz. She’s obviously an expert, or she’s been around long enough to know about Facebook and the strategy that goes along with it.”

Joe Fairless: Okay.

Camberley Woods: So that’s where I start. Then the next couple things you need to consider are your content, and I usually bullet-point this out for myself; if I write it out, it’s too hard for me to follow, because I’m trying to hit those little zingers that I wrote out in my copy. So I outline it, and I make sure I have all those points that I wanna talk about. Then I also consider my calls to action and my calls to comment. This is the most important part of your live video – the call to action and the call to comment… Because on each video, we wanna be moving your viewer towards an action; maybe your action is to join your Facebook group, maybe your action is to private-message me, maybe your action is to grab a download… You have to have some kind of action that you want that user to take, so you can help propel them through that decision-making cycle.

So think about your call to action and then think about your calls to comment. You wanna have a lot of calls to comments in your Facebook live. Here is why. Your comments on your video are what Facebook recognizes as engagement, and if they see that there are comments and engagement, reactions happening on that video, then Facebook thinks “Oh, this video must be valuable. People really, really like it, so we’re gonna put it into more and more news feeds.”

So you need to think about those calls to comments before you go on your live, when you’re starting out. I’m getting to a point now with my live strategy where it comes naturally, but in the beginning I really had to think about this… And my call to comment could be something like “Give me the praise hands emoji if this makes sense to you.” Or it could be “Tag somebody in the comments who has a Facebook business page”, or “Leave a comment that says ‘outline’ if you would like me to send you my Facebook Live outline.” So think about those calls to comments before going on your live as well, because we want people to be commenting and interacting with you so that your content gets into more news feeds.

Joe Fairless: That makes a lot of sense. When you are ready to record, what equipment do you have to make sure it sounds good and looks good?

Camberley Woods: The brilliant thing about live video is all you need is a smartphone to start, and that’s actually where I started… Because my goal in the beginning was just to consistently show up and get comfortable on the camera. So I tell a lot of people, “Don’t let technology hold you back. Just use your smartphone at first.” Then you can add on little microphones… My favorite microphone I got off of Amazon; it’s $20, it hooks right into my phone, and it makes the audio sound great. [unintelligible [00:15:56].09] I can give you a link to that if your listeners are interested in that.
So you could do just a simple microphone, your smartphone, and then I have a little tripod. Or you can stand your phone up on — I’ve seen people use bookshelves, or [unintelligible [00:16:13].00] to just sit their phone up so it’s steady while they’re broadcasting.

Then when you’re ready to upgrade, you can use a webcam. I use a Logitech HD — it’s like the C920 webcam, and then I have a microphone that I use for my conference calls, and that’s just what I use for the microphone when I’m broadcasting from my desktop. And I use a Blue Yeti, which is a pretty popular one.

Joe Fairless: Anything else that we should talk about as it relates to maximizing Facebook Live for our business that we haven’t discussed already?

Camberley Woods: Yes, the last thing I would say about the tactical side of the live videos is — taking it back to your comments and your engagement, we wanna do something called engagement looping. When we engagement-loop people the concept here is to bring the people who commented on your video back to that video at a later date, to leave an additional comment.

So if Joe left a comment on my video, I would go back to that comment after the live broadcast and I would respond to Joe. Then I would follow up to Joe with a second comment, and on that comment I would end it with an open-ended question. It may be something like “Hey Joe, are you currently going live on Facebook?” What this does is Joe is going to get notified that I responded to him, then he’s gonna get that notification that I left him a question, and often times Joe will come back to my video and he’s going to respond to my question. Now I’m having a back-and-forward conversation with Joe on my video. This increases the number of comments on my video, and again, Facebook says “Ding-ding-ding! This video is getting lots of comments and engagement. Let’s put it into more news feeds.”
So any time you go live on Facebook and you get comments on your video, you wanna go back and try to engagement-loop those engagers.

Joe Fairless: Beautiful. Something I hadn’t heard of before, and — I certainly hadn’t heard of the term before, so thank you for sharing that. I’m glad I asked that question, and I’m glad that you had that comment. That’s really interesting.
How can the Best Ever listeners get in touch with you and learn more about what you’ve got going on?

Camberley Woods: They can find me on… Facebook!

Joe Fairless: Imagine that…!

Camberley Woods: I know, weird. You can find me on Facebook. My Facebook page is called Live Marketing With Camberley Woods, since I’m teaching about live marketing/live video… And I also have a Facebook group – it’s free, it’s private, and I coach people through Facebook live marketing and the strategies. That Facebook group is called The FB Live Lab for Facebook. They can also catch up with me over on my website at

Joe Fairless: Outstanding. Well, Camberley, thank you for being on the show and sharing with us how to optimize our presence on Facebook via Facebook live. I love how you walked through the entire approach for making sure that we first talk about what we’re gonna talk about, then give a little bit of information about ourselves, just a tiny bio to add the credibility, and then know what our bullet points are – don’t write it all out, just know what the bullet points are – and know what our calls to action and calls to comment are… And then lastly, that engagement looping tactic.

Thank you for that, as well as the overall approach for why we need to be focused on this if we are looking to build our business through Facebook, because of the new changes that have happened this year with the Facebook platform.

So thanks for being on the show. I hope you have a best ever day, and we’ll talk to you soon.

Camberley Woods: You’re welcome, thanks for having me.

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