Our guest today was a real estate investor first, then fell in love with marketing. Quite the opposite of the typical story we hear on the show, typically our guests fall in love with real estate investing and switch careers to real estate. Joe is still heavily involved in real estate, now he helps investors and/or agents connect with great leads through his marketing company. They go a step further for their clients, rather than being a lead provider, they are an appointment provider. If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!
Best Ever Tweet:
“The ROI that you will receive by investing in the marketing and sales side of your business is exponentially higher than any ROI you will ever get from anything else” – Joe Giglietti
Joe Giglietti Real Estate Background:
- Host of The Billions In Real Estate Show & Founder of Exponential Referrals, a digital marketing agency
- Working to refer $1 Billion in real estate this year
- Based in Melbourne, FL
- Say hi to him at www.exponentialreferrals.com
- Best Ever Book: The Snowball
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Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff. With us today, Joe Giglietti. How are you doing, Joe?
Joe Giglietti: I’m fantastic, thank you for having me. Great to be with the Best Ever listeners.
Joe Fairless: I’m glad to hear that, and looking forward to our conversation. A little bit about Joe – he is the host of the “The Billions in Real Estate Show” and founder of Exponential Referrals, a digital marketing agency. He is working to refer up to one billion dollars in real estate this year. Based in Melbourne, Florida. You can learn more about his company at exponentialreferrals.com, which is a link in the show notes page; you can click on through to that. With that being said, do you wanna give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and your current focus?
Joe Giglietti: Absolutely. I’m a third-generation real estate professional. My grandfather owned a real estate brokerage back in the ’60s, my dad worked in it his whole life, and when I got into college, I caught the bug, too… And since 2003-2004 I’ve been doing real estate. However, in the last two years I fell in love with marketing, and so I decided to start a digital marketing agency to help real estate agents and real estate professionals close more deals. That’s our focus now.
Joe Fairless: So you help real estate professionals close more deals. Real quick, just a random question – you’re in Melbourne, Florida; I’m picking up a Midwest bit of an accent… Are you from the Midwest, originally?
Joe Giglietti: That is impressive! Yes, I’m originally from the Chicago area.
Joe Fairless: There we go… Alright, yeah. I think I’ve interviewed so many people I can kind of pick up on accents; I was like, “Wait a second… The way he talks doesn’t fit with Florida.” Okay, cool.
Joe Giglietti: I got smart and left all the cold weather, and went to the warm weather. [laughter]
Joe Fairless: Fair enough, fair enough. So working to refer a billion dollars in real estate this year… What does that mean, exactly?
Joe Giglietti: Okay, so as you know, in any kind of real estate endeavor, we’re not in the real estate business, we’re in the marketing business, right? So what we found was there’s a lot of people out there trying to generate leads for real estate agents, or real estate investors, or name that field of real estate that you’re doing. What we’ve found is that a lot of those leads real estate agents complain “These are garbage leads.” So what we did is we said, “Hm, how do we make leads better?”
When we look at the process – and this is true when you talk to wholesalers for example as well, or when you talk to really any business owner, they’re looking for “good quality leads.” Well, we said “What makes a lead more quality?” As we thought through that process, it is — let me just talk to real estate agents first, because that’s the core focus, right? So a real estate agent – we can get them 100-200 leads in a month, and we thought we would crush the game if we did that, and we could work on a referral basis; so we say “Look, don’t pay us until deals close.” So when we first started, we would just generate leads for them and say “Go get ’em boys, and when they close, pay us referrals.”
Joe Fairless: When you say “leads” you’re referring to the owner of —
Joe Giglietti: Name, e-mail and phone number.
Joe Fairless: Name, e-mail and phone number of a potential motivated —
Joe Giglietti: Buyer or seller of real estate.
Joe Fairless: Okay, name, e-mail and phone number of a buyer or seller of real estate. Okay, got it. Sorry, go ahead.
Joe Giglietti: No, it’s all good. So they responded to some sort of marketing online that said “Hey, I’m either interested in buying this house, or I’m interested in selling my house, or I’m interested in having this agent help me.” The problem was we thought “Hey, we’ll crush the game.” We were 100% wrong. Our first 20 clients – we got them hundreds of leads per month, and literally none of those deals closed. That was very frustrating…
Joe Fairless: Huh…! Yeah, you did the work…
Joe Giglietti: We did the work, right? And it didn’t happen. So the question becomes “Why? Why don’t these leads close?” So we went and did it ourselves, spent some money in Denver, Colorado, where we’re not, to test it in a market we weren’t in, to see if it would work. We spent $600 in ads, 60-90 days, we’d look out to see how much money is coming into the pipeline, and the answer was $60,000 in gross commission income for an agent there. And we were like, “We spent $600, we’re getting $60,000 back (not us, the agent). That’s 100 times ads spent. It’s not the leads, it’s how the leads are being followed up on.” So it took us the next year of breaking down the process – and this is true no matter what area of real estate you’re in – to realize that most people focus on buying leads, and then they check all these different “lead sources” like Facebook leads, Google leads, direct mail leads, [unintelligible [00:05:56].12] whatever, in order to say which leads are better, when the reality is all of those leads are the same thing. Somebody who’s raised their hand to identify themselves.
The next thing that always needs to happen is a conversation with those leads, which was the first frustration – most people never follow up with the leads. They may call them once and leave a voice mail, and that’s it. If they don’t call back, it was a junk lead. Well, what we’ve found is that if we could find other communication channels in order to turn leads into conversations, and then turn those conversations into appointments, so that real estate agents only have to talk with people who are ready to buy or are ready to sell right now, real estate agents have a much, much higher likelihood — as a matter of fact, the National Association of Realtors says 70% of people work with the first real estate agent they meet face to face… So our whole goal is to change from being simply a lead provider to being an appointment provider; and by providing appointments, a much higher percentage of deals close, so it’s a better deal for the agents, it’s a better deal for everyone.
Now, I know all of your Best Ever listeners aren’t real estate agents, but it bears out an important point, that “Huh, the industry is missing a little bit”, which is everybody’s like “I’ve got a lead.” Maybe it’s a wholesaler who’s looking to buy a house, and they get a lead, and they call it once and then nothing happens. The game is not leads. That passed five years ago; with Facebook and everything else it’s so easy to get leads… The game is appointments – how many appointments are you getting every single month to talk with, for example, motivated sellers? Or, I’ve heard — by the way, great content on your podcast… I saw some of your capital raising podcasts – they’re so good. It’s the same game – it’s not leads of people that we can talk to about raising money, it’s actual appointments to sit down with investors who are looking and purchasing, for example, apartment deals, or commercial deals. Same game. It doesn’t matter if it’s a real estate agent, it’s a wholesaler, it’s an apartment owner – it doesn’t matter; we’re all playing the same game, which is appointments. It’s either appointments to get motivated sellers, appointments to get good deals, or it’s appointments to raise capital. That’s the game. So that’s what we’ve worked on perfecting for the last two years.
Now in the state of Florida what we’re doing is we’re building out a competitor to Zillow and Realtor.com for agents, that provides agents with appointments, and they only have to pay us when the deals close.
Joe Fairless: That’s such a smart business plan, and it’s such an interesting insight too, to hear you talk about “It’s not the leads, but rather it’s the appointments, because that leads to conversions and actual transactions taking place.”
Joe Giglietti: Yeah.
Joe Fairless: You said you’ve been working on it for the last couple of years to hone that process of actually getting the appointments scheduled on a consistent basis… Tell us about the process that you’ve been working on.
Joe Giglietti: Most people could survive just off of Facebook. There’s a lot of great channels; everybody’s talking about Facebook, and the reality is it’s really inexpensive. For example, if you’re looking for someone to buy houses – I know this is gonna be a shock, Joe; you’re probably gonna think I’m a genius when I say this, but the best way to get people who are interested in buying a house to become a lead is to advertise a house. [laughs]
Joe Fairless: Yeah, imagine that.
Joe Giglietti: Imagine that. There’s all these marketers out there, it’s like they’re the “catch me out” because they’ve figured this thing out, and it’s like, they advertise a house. [laughs] If somebody is interested in that house, it’s like “Yeah, I’d like to see pictures and more information” and so they put in their name, e-mail and phone number, right?
Joe Fairless: Yeah.
Joe Giglietti: So that’s a lead. It’s the same thing Zillow does, or Realtor.com. There’s not secret – they advertise houses, people say “I want more info that”, and they give you info. That’s a lead. There’s no magic. Here’s the thing though – what happens after that? For us, what we’ve found is that if we give it to the agents and we say “Hey, call them back.” I love all my real estate agents, I’m a real estate agents, but I started in the investing work; I didn’t get my real estate agent license [unintelligible [00:09:42].20] So I love everybody, but the reality is most investors that I know kind of complain about the agents not returning phone calls as well; it’s a pretty common theme in the industry. So if you’re gonna base a business around that, it’s probably not a good business.
So we had to figure out, okay, obviously when somebody becomes a lead, we should call them back, and we should call them back quickly. Great. Same thing if you’re finding a motivated seller, or even if somebody who’s interested in potentially lending money on a deal – you should call them back quickly. I don’t know, it’s a dopamine drop to them immediately, right?
Joe Fairless: Yup.
Joe Giglietti: But if we’d just depend on business owners doing that, our business would fail. We figured out six other channels that we can do, that we can initiate conversations in with the buyer or seller of real estate, or with the real estate agent who’s interested in our service, or with an investor when we’re looking to raise money – six other channels that we could have conversations in.
Let’s say somebody’s on Facebook and they decide “Yeah, I’m interested in this house”, or if you’re advertising an event to teach people how to invest in apartment deals because you’re looking for investors, and somebody clicks on it – first thing that should happen is a call, but the next thing that happens is we actually have an automated text process that texts them. Now, that doesn’t sound crazy, but here’s what we do that’s a little different – we text our leads three times a day for five days, or until they answer.
Joe Fairless: That’s a lot.
Joe Giglietti: Most people are like, “That’s a lot”, right? That was my thought. Remember, we spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on ads to figure this out.
Joe Fairless: I’d be blocking you so quickly…
Joe Giglietti: You would think, you would think.
Joe Fairless: Well, I know I would.
Joe Giglietti: Well, you’d probably just respond.
Joe Fairless: No, I wouldn’t respond. Well, okay, so in this scenario I initiated the conversation…
Joe Giglietti: Yes, that’s the thing.
Joe Fairless: Okay, so I initiated it.
Joe Giglietti: Yup. So I text you back, you don’t respond because you’re busy. Now, these are high-value texts…
Joe Fairless: What do they say?
Joe Giglietti: Well, it depends on the thing, but for real estate, the first one is “Hey, are you looking to buy soon, or are you just browsing?” And we specifically set it up that way to make it easy for them to respond. They want out of the conversation a lot of times, so they’ll say “Browsing.” Well, now we’re talking.
Joe Fairless: [laughs]
Joe Giglietti: It’s almost like when you go into a retail store. If they say “Hey, can I help you?” “No, I’m just browsing.” You wanna say that, so you can get them out of your face, but a good salesperson – they’ll look at what you’re browsing and, for example, find something else in the store that’s comparable to that, that they think you might like, and they say “I saw you were looking at these, and I think these shoes would go fantastic with it. Do you like these?” At that point, it’s almost rude for the person not to respond back, because you added value, you tried to provide value to them. You might be like, “Oh yeah, I like those” or “No I don’t really like those.” “Oh, okay. Are you looking for shoes…?” and you’re in conversation. That’s the next step of all of your appointments – you need a lead, and then you need conversation. Text is one way to do that.
Here’s the funny thing – sure, some people say “Stop”, but most of the people who respond, they say “Thanks so much for staying on top of this. I’m sorry, I’ve been busy. It’s my fault”, and they just enter the conversation. They appreciate the professionalism of somebody who consistently stays with them, if they’ve requested information. That was a shock to us.
Joe Fairless: Yeah. So you said six other channels – is texting one of those channels?
Joe Giglietti: Yeah. Call, texting, e-mail… E-mail is an obvious one, right? Now, next one, most people don’t even think of this – marketers. Marketers tend to do upsell offers. If you go to buy knives on a website, the next one will be like “Hey, get two for the price of one. But wait, there’s more…”, right?
Joe Fairless: Right.
Joe Giglietti: They’re calling you the next day and they’re trying to upsell you, right? Most real estate agents and marketers and people of that nature don’t do that. Well, it’s a phenomenal business strategy. Is there a way to work that when you’re generating leads? The answer is yes. So on the next page usually they have a video or pictures of the property, with a specific offer. To give an example to people who are doing an event and they’re gonna raise money at the event – one of the things they could do on that page is talk about some special, unique deals that have actually come up recently, and if you want more information on this, click this button and schedule an appointment to talk with us directly. Boom, it’s an upsell offer, right?
Joe Fairless: Right.
Joe Giglietti: A small percentage of people take it, but it doesn’t matter; if you get 100 people on that page and 3-5 schedule appointments, most people can close some deals with 3-5 investors who are coming in. So that’s way number four.
Way number five is on every page that we’re sending people to is chat. Just like you see on e-commerce stores, and stuff like that. Surprisingly, people will go to the pages and they’ll have questions. For us, it’s questions about houses. “Oh is this sink bronze or stainless steel? How deep is the sink? Is it laminate floor or hardwood floor?”, whatever it is. Instead of calling a real estate who they don’t wanna talk to, they go on the chat and they start typing in their questions there, because it’s non-committal, right?
Joe Fairless: Right…
Joe Giglietti: Guess what – we’ve just turned a lead into a conversation, and then we turn those conversations into scheduled appointments with the agents.
The last two are search sites. We have search sites that we send them to, where they literally click buttons if they have questions with the agent; another place where we can follow up. And we keep staying in front of that customer. Anybody who becomes a lead, they’re retargeted on Facebook again and again and again; every single week they’re seeing the same agent, new properties, getting sent back into that search site, so that if they click again, now we can start the text sequence again, now we can show them more properties etc. and we track everything they’re doing.
And then lastly, Facebook messenger is huge. So many of these people, they become a lead, and then for the next five days we’ll send them a video every day, and underneath the video is a messenger button, so that they can talk specifically with the agent. They’ll click the button to ask a question, and conversations become appointments.
So we have call, text, e-mail, online chat, upsell offers, search pages and Facebook messenger, and you could also add in voicemail drops if you wanted to add number eight. Most of those you can set up on automation, so that you’re only actually talking to the person once they’ve responded. That’s what’s changed the game for us. Even if they don’t call, we’re catching them six other ways.
Joe Fairless: I’ve gotten in all caps, “Turn a lead into a conversation.” That’s the key insight here, and then your business is focused on taking that lead and starting that conversation, because then that goes to the appointment, which exponentially – to use your word – increases…
Joe Giglietti: Oh, yeah! Best listeners ever, you heard him! [laughs]
Joe Fairless: There you go… Increases the likelihood to convert into a sale. How do you make money?
Joe Giglietti: When the deal closes, real estate agents pay us a referral fee.
Joe Fairless: How much?
Joe Giglietti: 25%-35%, depending. It’s pretty standard for the industry.
Joe Fairless: Cool. Got it. Taking a giant step back and sticking with the format of the show, but tying into our conversation and your background, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?
Joe Giglietti: I think a lot of people have heard this one before, but misunderstood it… So forgive me if I’m repeating it, but here’s the best real estate investing advice I’ve ever received – you’re in the math business. Most investors assume by “the math business” is the operation side. Every business has two sides – you’ve got marketing and sales, and then you have operations. Most people, especially in real estate – if we were a pie maker, we’d be thinking about the pie; well, we’re in real estate, so we think about the apartment deals – what are the numbers? What’s the value-add opportunities? When you think about a flip, what are the costs? What percentage are we buying it on? All that kind of stuff… And we think about the operations side of the math, because we’re taught that, many times, if you have a good deal, the buyers will come, and that’s kind of the whole focus.
But the reality is the way to really explode a real estate investing business, or a real estate agency business, is to focus on the marketing and sales side. Sales is what actually makes money in the business; the operations – yes, they need to be good, they need to be quality, location obviously is important, and all that kind of stuff, but if you focus on the marketing and sales side and you look at the math on that side of the business, it’s very interesting, because the ROI that you will receive by investing into the marketing and sales side of your business is exponentially higher than any return on investment you will ever get from anything else.
Now, I’m not suggesting that you should only do that, but the point is, for example – I’ll take a real estate agent and then I’ll give an investor example. If you’re a real estate agent, and let’s say it costs you $500 (and that’s a lot; it doesn’t cost $500) every time you get an appointment with somebody looking to buy a million dollar house – now, that real estate agent is gonna make $25,000 when they sell that house to that buyer. So if they spend $500 every time and they had to have five appointments, which would be a terrible closing rate; it should be like 50%-75%. But let’s say it took them five appointments in order to lock somebody in at a million dollar buying price point – that means they’ve spent $2,500 in getting appointments, to get $25,000 in revenue.
Joe Fairless: Right.
Joe Giglietti: That’s a 10x return on your investment in 60 days.
Joe Fairless: Yes, please.
Joe Giglietti: Yes, exactly. Let’s take it to the real estate investing side – so many guys are like “I just wanna get to the next level.” And they’re hunting down deals, and they’re doing their stuff, and they’re hustling to find a deal, and driving for dollars, and all the different things that all of us real estate investors do, but the reality is if you understood the math side of the business… Investors are afraid to invest into the highest ROIs because even though they know how to do the math, they really can’t see the bigger equation, which is this… Let’s take apartment investors; maybe there’s guys out there that are just doing 4-units, and they really wish they were doing 100-units. What’s the difference between the guy doing 4-units and the guy doing 100-units? Well, one is knowledge, and the second one is access to capital. Well, how do you get access to capital? Surely an appointment game.
I remember Elon Musk, the first time I heard him say this it crushed my mind. Somebody asked him, “How do you raise the money to do all these billion dollar deals?” He literally waved his hand and he said “Raising money is merely a function of how many phone calls you’re willing to make.” [laughter] Like, “What IS the question”, right?
Joe Fairless: Yeah, like “D’oh…!”, right?
Joe Giglietti: Yeah. “This annoys me”, right? But that’s the point… In today’s world, using social media, using direct mail, whatever channel you wanna use for marketing, you figure out how much it costs you to acquire an appointment with an investor, and let’s say investors who are willing to invest a minimum of $100,000. I mean, you need ten investors to get a million dollars in capital, and that’s a great down payment on something.
So that’s the whole idea… The thing that’s distancing you from whatever your dreams are really comes down to how many appointments you are scheduling. And that comes down to maths, which is “How much does it cost me to get an appointment?” And the mistake real estate investors and real estate agents make is they’re like “Well, I wanna optimize.” “How much do you wanna spend for an appointment, sir?” “Oh, could I get them for $20, please?” And it’s like, “Why?” Why does it have to be $20? Not $500, but what if it was $500, and you’re a real estate investor, and every time you spend $500 you have somebody who’s willing or potentially open to the idea of investing $100,000 into your next deal. How much would you spend on appointments in order to get a million dollars in capital? How much would a million dollars in capital change your life? It’s purely a math question; you’re simply not doing the math or not focusing the math in the right area.
Joe Fairless: I love the way you think. It’s my opinion that you’re so on point with this, and thanks for bringing on the Elon Musk quote; I hadn’t heard that before. And also, we get so caught up in the cost of something, and the only reason why we should ever be caught up in the cost of something is if we’ve done the analysis of it not being a good return on investment when you factor in the potential opportunity of actually converting that… So then it’s just, like you said, doing the math, and figuring out “Okay, so it’s $300 to get an appointment? That sounds maybe on the surface expensive, but how much do I actually make whenever I convert this person?”
So on the back-end you’ve gotta make sure that you’ve got the deal flow to accommodate the leads, that way you can put them into a deal, but assuming you’ve got the deal flow to accommodate the leads, then it’s just a simple math equation, like you said. I love this.
We’re gonna do a lightning round. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?
Joe Giglietti: Can I say one other thing from what you’ve just said?
Joe Fairless: Yeah, yeah.
Joe Giglietti: I would just like to say this – one of the things marketers are saying… I know a lot of investors don’t hear this, because you’re not necessarily marketing like me, and in that world, but one of the things we all know to be true is whoever can spend the most money to acquire a customer, wins.
Joe Fairless: Yeah…
Joe Giglietti: That sounds backwards, but it’s so true. And here’s the reality – compared to 95% of the businesses out there, real estate agents and real estate investors can spend far more than the average person to acquire customers. Think about an apartment deal – how much can you spend to acquire more capital? How much do you really make on that, even within 60 days, even from just closing the deal and the initial fees if you’re syndicating that you’re making from that… You can spend way more. Think about a hamburger place – how much can they spend to acquire a customer? For the average business, where it’s normally $10, $20, $50, $100 to acquire a customer, it’s getting tight, right? Your margins are almost never tight in real estate. You’re just afraid because you don’t know how to get the appointments and you haven’t done the math… So I’m begging you, because it will help everyone of you so much, figure out the appointments. It’s not going to cost too much in 99% of the cases.
Joe Fairless: Right. And I will mention one thing, then we’ve gotta quickly do the Lightning Round… On what you said, “Whoever can spend the most money to acquire a customer wins” – and that’s assuming that you know what the lifetime value of a customer is for your business, otherwise you’re just shooting in the dark… But I live and breathe that statement with my apartment syndication book. My apartment syndication book is $50. On Amazon it’s the most expensive book that I know of, other than a textbook in real estate investing; but I would certainly argue that my book is more valuable that any textbook I’ve read, which I haven’t read too many though… And because it is priced at $50, which anyone who’s read it – at least I would imagine – most people who have read it would say it’s well worth the investment of $50… But that’s not my point here.
My point here though is because it is $50, I can afford to have my Amazon ads be at a higher price, because I’m getting more profit on the book than any of my competitors that I’m competing against for those eyeballs. So my Amazon ads – I rank number one on multifamily investing, apartment syndication, multifamily syndication… And the reason why I’m able to rank number one, one is through organic growth from the book, but then two, I have the sponsored ads in the best placements, which helps the growth, because mine is the most expensive book, therefore I can have a higher price on my Amazon ads, more than anyone else… Because if someone else were to match the price that I have on my Amazon ads, they’re not gonna be making any money from the book.
Joe Giglietti: Yup, that’s genius. And the lifetime value of those customers is far more than the $50 for the book, because many of them wanna come to your events, and all the other great, great things that you provide.
Joe Fairless: Of course, yeah. We’re gonna do the Lightning Round. We’ve got like 60 seconds to do the Lightning Round. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?
Joe Giglietti: I’m ready, let’s do this.
Joe Fairless: Alright. First, a quick word from our Best Ever partners.
Break: [00:24:30].05] to [00:25:51].28]
Joe Fairless: Best ever book you’ve recently read?
Joe Giglietti: The Snowball by Warren Buffett.
Joe Fairless: Best ever transaction – business or real estate – that you’ve done?
Joe Giglietti: I flipped a 60-unit apartment deal and on the front side we got $235,000, without any cash of my own invested.
Joe Fairless: Well, why are you in the referral business if you can do that?
Joe Giglietti: The referral business could be a billion dollar business, so…
Joe Fairless: There we go. What’s a mistake you’ve made on a transaction?
Joe Giglietti: I had an apartment deal in St. Louis, Missouri once, and we allowed all of the tenants to be funded by a city grant program that they had. It was a little bit higher rents, which seemed fantastic, but then we didn’t realize that the city could pull it at any time, so the city actually pulled that program and that funding instantly, overnight, and all of our tenants were incapable of paying. We lost every tenant, and that apartment complex was terrible.
Joe Fairless: Dang! How did you end up financially?
Joe Giglietti: We lost that deal.
Joe Fairless: To the bank/lender?
Joe Giglietti: Yeah, we lost that to the lender. Terrible.
Joe Fairless: Best ever way you like to give back?
Joe Giglietti: My wife and I – that’s our dream and our focus, so everything that we’re doing from here, we’re working to fund orphanages in Africa.
Joe Fairless: And how can the Best Ever listeners learn more about what you’ve got going on?
Joe Giglietti: You can e-mail me if you have any questions – firstname.lastname@example.org. Or you can just search me on Facebook at Exponential Referrals.
Joe Fairless: Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I have a marketing background, so I think I’m just naturally inclined to enjoying these conversations, but… There’s a whole lot of value in this for anyone, regardless of their background. Turning a lead into a conversation. It’s not about the leads, it’s about the conversations, which lead to appointments, which lead to conversions… But you’ve got to know your lifetime value of a customer in order to intelligently go about this process, so that you know how much you can invest for these appointments.
Thank you so much for being on the show. I hope you have a best ever day, and we’ll talk to you soon.
Joe Giglietti: Thanks so much, Joe.