JF2390: Using A Creative Approach When Starting and Scaling A Real Estate Business With Lauren Cohen

Lauren Cohen loves real estate and fills many shoes. She’s an international lawyer, real estate investor, and a coach. She also has a non-profit organization that helps single moms invest in real estate. 

She often works with first-time investors, introducing them to the world of real estate and helping them form a new passive income stream. At the same time, she also works with experienced investors, helping them buy properties not only in their countries but also across borders.

Lauren Cohen  Real Estate Background:

  • Serial entrepreneur, international lawyer, realtor, and cross-border expert
  • 15 years of real estate experience
  • Experience with flips, wholesaling, rentals, and subject-to on hundreds of properties
  • Based in Boca Raton, FL
  • Say hi to her at: www.ecouncilglobal.com/investintheus   
  • Best Ever Book: Take control of your life

 

Click here for more info on groundbreaker.co

 

Best Ever Tweet:

“You have to unpack the package and look at what is right there in front of you” – Lauren Cohen.


TRANSCRIPTION

Theo Hicks: Hello Best Ever listeners and welcome to The Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show. I’m Theo Hicks and today we’ll be speaking with Lauren Cohen. Lauren, how are you today?

Lauren Cohen: I’m great. How are you?

Theo Hicks: I’m doing well, thanks for asking, and thanks for taking the time to speak with us today.

Lauren Cohen: Of course, it’s my pleasure.

Theo Hicks: Let’s go over Lauren’s background really quickly. She’s a serial entrepreneur, international lawyer, realtor, and a cross-border expert. She has 15 years of real estate experience with flips, wholesaling, rentals subject-to’s on hundreds of properties. She is based out of Boca Raton, Florida. Her website is ecouncilglobal.com/investwithus and we’ll put that in the show notes. She’s also going to be doing a free giveaway which we will mention at the end of the show. So make sure you listen all the way to the end. Lauren, do you mind telling us some more about your background and what you’re focused on today?

Lauren Cohen: Sure. So I am an international lawyer and a realtor, and I’ve been investing directly and helping clients invest in real estate for almost two decades now. Mainly in the US, but also in Canada. There are still opportunities there so we do have a lot of clients in Canada. I’m also a real estate coach. So I love investing in real estate and helping others be exposed to it. I actually have a nonprofit that’s focused on helping struggling single moms and mompreneurs to find a way to invest in real estate, because at the end of the day, that’s your ticket. Really, there’s no other ticket that’s better than real estate investment.

Theo Hicks: Awesome. So you help people do investing and you invest yourself. Which one’s your main focus of those two?

Lauren Cohen: It’s kind of a split. It really depends, because I’m often joint venturing with my clients. There’s really not one at any given time. Right now, I think the focus is on helping my clients, but through COVID it was on actually investing, so it just depends on the day, really, and the demand.

Theo Hicks: Do you typically work with people who’ve never done deals before?

Lauren Cohen: Often. That’s going to be more of the non-profit side of what I do, to help people find their way of doing a deal, teaching them how to do a deal. Our coaching program is called Creative Real Estate Academy. My partner is an extraordinarily creative real estate investor from Calgary, Alberta, in Canada. So we work with people literally from all over the world, helping them to create structures. We work with people that are starting and that are moving along the spectrum, some people that are just expanding their investment opportunities across borders. My tagline is helping people invest, live, work, and play across border. So it’s all about just opening doors, really.

Theo Hicks: So based on your experience – this is kind of a two-part question… Based on your experience, what would you say is the biggest obstacle holding people back from –the first part of the question is getting started in general, from no deals to just getting started, and then once you’ve actually started, what’s the biggest obstacle holding them back from scaling and growing?

Lauren Cohen: I think to start, it’s fear. It’s fear of the unknown. It’s fear of taking your money and investing it in a place; no matter how safe it is, there’s still a risk. People that have never invested in real estate before are afraid that they’re getting bad advice, or they’re not going about it the right way, or they don’t know what they’re doing, so why would they invest, or they don’t want to be landlords, so they don’t know what other options are available.

When they’re trying to scale, the challenge is that they did their first investment or two without creating a structure around that that could allow them to scale. So my key focus when working with other investors is to help them from the get-go to create that strategy that’s going to allow them to build a strong foundation from which they can scale, grow, and invest all over their own country, as well as expanding their investments across borders.

Theo Hicks: Could you elaborate on that second point a little bit? So I just got my first deal, and I want to start scaling, and I’m working with you… When you say a creative structure, what specifically would you have me do?

Lauren Cohen: Well, there are eight elements that I look at when I’m creating a success blueprint for each of my clients, from location, to budget, to joint venture, if you want to joint venture or work with partners, to the types of properties you want to invest in… We go through an analysis of where you come from, your own background, how much money you want to invest, how much you have available to risk, and we create a strategy around that structure and we develop a plan. Do you want to invest close to home? Do you want to invest over the border, whatever border that may be? Do you want to invest overseas? What’s your budget for that? Do you want to have a turnkey business? Do you want to run the business? How involved do you want to be? All of those questions are considered when we develop this success blueprint for them.

Theo Hicks: Something else you mentioned too was about your partner, and they are very creative investors. Could you give us some examples of some of the things that they have done in the past or something that they do consistently that’s that creative aspect of the deals?

Lauren Cohen: Well, first, I think you need to have my partner Carolyn on the show. She’s actually in Cabo right now. Her creativity allowed her and our other partner to invest in a development in Cabo. So they are building this out and offering opportunities in Cabo, San Lucas. Her name is Carolin Ricciardi. What makes her so creative is she’s created a model that’s based on agreements for sale, which as I say, are similar to subject-to’s here in the US, where you basically knock on doors, almost, essentially, knock on doors to find opportunities, to take over mortgages before they go to foreclosure. So you don’t have to qualify for the mortgage.

There’s one client that we have, she and her husband both lost their jobs at the beginning of COVID. She’s now eight months pregnant, she was obviously just pregnant at the time… And they now are in their fourth property investment and they netted over six figures already, just in the opportunities that they’ve looked at in the first three. That’s because you have to unpackage the package a little bit and look at what is right there in front of you. Sometimes people are just looking at traditional options, whereas this is a very non-traditional way of going about things, where you create documents and contracts that may potentially have more risk attached to them. But obviously, the more risk, the more reward, right?

Theo Hicks: Thank you for sharing that. Let’s talk about what you do for your investments. As you mentioned, you help people half of your time… What do you invest in? What’s your main focus right now?

Lauren Cohen: It’s on buy and hold and creating that ongoing wealth and cash flow, and eventually selling. So it’s buying distressed properties, buying properties that have mortgages that aren’t being paid, finding those needles in the haystack. Obviously, as a realtor, I have access to pocket listings and opportunities that others may not. Then of course, I bring my legal hat into the mix and make sure that legally everything is kosher, so that we can invest in the property and create that ongoing stream of income. So the key is passive investment and passive opportunities.

I like to find properties that are already tenanted or that are in areas that are going to have very good tenant tenancy and occupancy ratings, because you want to make sure that your property stays tenanted obviously, so that you’re not going to have a headache. That’s the last thing that I want. I like the least headaches for myself and my clients.

Theo Hicks: How many different markets are you in currently?

Lauren Cohen: Well, it depends. If it’s me, personally, I’m in two markets, but if it’s me through my clients, probably about 10.

Theo Hicks: Okay. I’m imagining one of them is in Boca Raton, or are they both out of state?

Lauren Cohen: No, we do invest in South Florida. It’s not Boca specifically. So far Boca doesn’t have many distressed properties, although we did see one the other day, but it was very distressed. But there are a lot of parts of South Florida within a quick drive of where we are. Orlando is a big market and we’re going up there this coming week to look at some opportunities. Tampa, the multifamily opportunities are there… Atlanta, Nevada, Texas, Ohio, obviously, Chicago is one place that we look at as well… And Detroit, the Raleigh-Durham area as well is a big opportunity zone for us.

Theo Hicks: Something that I’ve just thought of… So you said you partner with your clients on a lot of these deals. Is it just anyone you’ll partner with? Or what do you do when you’re screening these people before you decide to partner with them?

Lauren Cohen: They’re going to come in, they’re going to become our clients, they’re going to work with us, we’ll go through our coaching program, learn how to invest in real estate with us. Then if they come to buy a good opportunity, then we are going to offer, if the timing is right, and they have been through our due diligence process, to joint venture with them to give them access to capital to invest in those opportunities. So this way, they can have more volume and we also have access to that volume without it having to be too much of a headache. We have the systems in place so that we can manage the properties and turn them around and rent them out, if needed.

Theo Hicks: Okay. So you said after they’ve gone through the program, as long as the deals good, then you’ll JV?

Lauren Cohen: Yeah, we’ll go through deals with them. We have a deal vetting program that we do within our group coaching and our one on one coaching. We go through each deal and analyze the numbers with them to do the due diligence. I’m going to look at it from a legal perspective and we bring in our numbers person to make sure that deals make sense. It’s not like we just joint venture with everybody that has a deal, or we would be joint venturing a lot. And I also set up a lot of joint ventures, like people that are just getting into the business, for example… I have a client here in the States who is originally from Canada, but he’s just getting into real estate investing. So he really needs a partner to guide him through and make sure that he doesn’t just throw his capital away. And also, the partner that I’ve connected him with has access to financing, so that opens another door too.

So you just have to know — one of my superhero powers is connecting the right people together, and having them go through that process with me, working with me, allows me to vet them and make sure that they’re the right partners for each other, hopefully.

Theo Hicks: Another thing that I get a lot from people who want to get started in real estate, or they have a full-time job, they hate it, and they want to get into real estate investing, and they realize it’s not going to happen instantly, so they want to become a real estate agent to get started. They quit their job, be an agent, then eventually quit that and invest full time. So as a realtor, what are your thoughts on that strategy?

Lauren Cohen: Join my company. [laughs] Okay, so I’ll be honest, I’ve had my real estate license for almost 13 years. I joined a cloud-based brokerage just under a year ago. It’s been life-changing for me, because it’s allowed me to connect with other realtors — I think 30 realtors in my company were on my webinar that I just did an hour ago– and to really build my real estate practice, as opposed to being just a real estate investor.

Being a realtor is definitely going to help you access deals, because you can pull comparables, you can access information that’s not on the market, you can connect with prospective buyers and sellers that you may not otherwise be able to connect with, and you can also earn referral fees from the properties that you buy and sell in other jurisdictions. So there’s a lot of advantages to getting your real estate license when you’re a real estate investor.

Theo Hicks:  Okay, so you’re on the side of “Yes, get that license” and then come work for you.

Lauren Cohen:  And then come talk to me. Exactly.

Theo Hicks: There you go. Alright, Lauren, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?

Lauren Cohen: You asked me to think about this, and the best real estate advice ever that I could give is just do it. It’s kind of like Nike’s swoosh, just do it. Because the longer you wait, the harder it becomes. There are people that are investing starting at 50 starting at 60 and starting at 20. Now, wouldn’t you rather have built your wealth and amass your wealth by the time you’re 50 or 60, rather than having to start investing then? Start when you’re young and don’t hesitate. But make sure you have a mentor. Do not try to just run into it. Have a mentor to guide you through. So I guess that’s two pieces of advice combined, right?

Theo Hicks:  Yeah, Best Ever advices, I guess. Not all people will give multiple pieces of advice, but the more the merrier when it comes to that question.

Lauren Cohen:  I don’t follow instructions well, apparently. [laughter]

Theo Hicks: Well, you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?

Lauren Cohen: I think so…

Theo Hicks: Okay, first, a quick word from our sponsor.

Break: [00:15:52] – [ [00:16:14]

Theo Hicks: Okay, what is the Best Ever book you’ve recently read?

Lauren Cohen: The best book that I recently read was Take Control of Your Life by Mel Robbins.

Theo Hicks: Okay, if you’re business were to collapse today, what would you do next? I guess in your case it would be business-es.

Lauren Cohen: My business did collapse.

Theo Hicks: What did you do next?

Lauren Cohen: Haven’t a lot of our businesses collapsed? My main business did collapse when COVID started, and I pivoted and helped people get money. They call me the Pivoting Queen. I’m not too worried about that.

Theo Hicks: What is the Best Ever deal you’ve done?

Lauren Cohen: I would say the one that we did recently, which was we bought a property and we were renovating it, planning to rent it, and ended up flipping it within 24 hours.

Theo Hicks: How much did you make?

Lauren Cohen: 80k.

Theo Hicks: On the flip side…

Lauren Cohen: The worst?

Theo Hicks: Yeah. The worst deals or a deal that you had lost money on. How much did you lose and what lessons did you learn from that?

Lauren Cohen: Okay, well, I can talk about that. It was my first investment, which was a single-family home. It was too distressed, and I ended up having so many rampant problems… This was before I was a realtor and before I was a lawyer. Well actually, I was a lawyer, just not in the US. I just was trying to get into something and I did it with a partner. The partnership was a disaster, and it was just a disaster all around. I lost about 50,000 in that deal and I also lost a lot of faith in myself, which I had to regain. So that was a harder lesson.

Theo Hicks: What is the Best Ever way you like to give back?

Lauren Cohen: I have a non-profit, as I mentioned, it’s called Find My Silver Lining. I started it a couple of years ago, I haven’t really done very much with it. However, that’s my plan right now, is we are just about to relaunch it and it’s going to lead into Creative Real Estate Academy. So we’re going to bring people into the non-profit and offer them scholarships to use our services and learn how to invest in real estate. So that’s really exciting, because it’s for struggling single moms and mompreneurs that really don’t have the money. I’m a single mom, and not everybody has a law background, and not everybody can go get a degree. Some people are not so privileged and it’s hard. It’s hard even with that, being a single mom; it’s a struggle. So my son just turned 10, and it gets easier, but I really feel very strongly that that’s important, to make a difference and have an impact.

Theo Hicks: I love it. That’s awesome. The last question is what’s the Best Ever place to reach you? And then you can also mention the giveaway that you have for us.

Lauren Cohen: Absolutely, the best place to reach me is LinkedIn. I have a lot of activity going on on Facebook, but LinkedIn is always going to be your best place to reach me. However, my LinkedIn profile is full, so we can’t add any more connections. We might be able to scam in one each day. But you can always find me on Facebook, it’s Lauren ESQ is my handle in most places. My giveaway is – maybe you’re gonna share it in the show notes… It’s how to invest in real estate across borders; it’s going to teach you the eight elements of investing across borders and how to make sure that you cover your, you know what – assets – as you’re investing across borders. That’s super important, and I think that people don’t realize – when you are investing in any other country, even in your own, but in any other country, there’s so much more to think about, and people ignore it. That ends up causing them huge heartache and loss of a huge amount of income. It’s a disaster.

Theo Hicks: Yeah, so we’ll have that in the show notes, the link, and then there’s a coupon code that you can enter. Lauren, thank you so much for joining us today and providing us with your Best Ever advices, as well as walking us through your journey and some other tips as well. We talked about the biggest obstacles holding people back, starting out being fear, scaling, and being in that structure. You gave us some tips on what you do to help people create that structure based off of the eight elements for the success blueprint.

You talked about your partner, who we’ll definitely have to have on the show, and her example for creative investing, which is the agreement of sale, which is essentially knocking on doors to take over mortgages before they go into foreclosure.

You talked about what you invest in, and some of it is fully you, other is partnering with your clients. You talked about how that process works, of due diligence and partnering. You talked about the advantages of getting your license as a real estate agent. You mentioned the cloud-based brokerages… So it sounds like you don’t have to actually have brick and mortar place to be a brokerage. That’s interesting, I didn’t know about that.

And then your Best Ever advice is just do it, because the longer it takes, the harder it is, but also, the less you can benefit from it. As you said, do you wanna start when you’re 20 or when you’re 50? Both are fine, but a 30-year headstart is much better.

And then obviously, have a mentor was your last piece of advice. Again, make sure you go to the show notes everyone and take advantage of that free course. So Lauren, again, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it. Best Ever listeners, as always, thank you for listening. Have a Best Ever day and we’ll talk to you tomorrow.

Lauren Cohen: Thank you.

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JF2329: Money Saving Lessons With Jack Miller #SkillsetSunday

Jack is the president and founder of Gelt Financial Corporation and has experience in buying and financing over 10,000 properties and today he wants to share with you all the lessons you must learn to save yourself money in buying or selling properties. Jack was a previous guest on episode JF1675 so be sure to go check his previous episode out when you have time.

Jack Miller Real Estate Background:

  • President and Founder of Gelt Financial Corporation
  • Since founding Gelt, has made over 10,000 loans in excess of $1 billion
  • A previous guest on episode JF1675
  • Based in Boca Raton, FL
  • Say hi to him at www.geltfinancial.com 

Click here for more info on groundbreaker.co

Best Ever Tweet:

“You don’t have to do that many good deals to make a fantastic living, so focus on the best deals” – Jack Miller


TRANSCRIPTION

Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless. This is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast where we only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff. And first off, hope we’re having a Best Ever weekend. It is Sunday, and because it’s Sunday, we’ve got a special segment for you called Skillset Sunday. You knew that was coming, right? Because you’re a loyal listener, and that’s what we do on most Sundays.

With us today, we’ve got a guest who has made over 10,000 loans in excess of a billion dollars, and has also purchased a lot of properties. He’s the president and founder of Gelt Financial Corporation, and he’s going to talk about some lessons he’s learned along the way that will help you build your real estate portfolio the right way. With us today, Jack Miller. How are you doing, Jack?

Jack Miller: Excellent, Joe. How are you?

Joe Fairless: I’m doing excellent as well, thanks for asking. So, let’s get right into it. What’s the first lesson we should talk about that you’ve learned based off of your experience, that you see real estate investors do, or shouldn’t do, or should do more of?

Jack Miller: So the first lesson is you don’t have to do that many good deals to make a fantastic living, and to really become wealthy. But a lot of people want to do all the deals. So we see a lot of both as lenders and as buyers, you really need to be selective with the deals. So my first lesson is, don’t do a lot of deals, but focus on good deals.

Joe Fairless: That can ring true with some people who have fear of missing out. Because I’ve heard similar advice, but the exact opposite, where it’s don’t wait for the perfect deal, just get in there and do a deal, take action. What would you say to that?

Jack Miller: I would say whoever gives that advice isn’t there when things fall apart. The reality is there are a lot of people talking about how much money they make in real estate when things go good. But there’s a lot of deals that don’t go good and they end in total disaster. It’s sort of like people walking out of the casino, you always hear about the winners, but you don’t hear about the losers. So my biggest advice to people would be, learn to say no. Say no more often than you say yes. I would say approach this with precision, and absolutely don’t do deals that you don’t think are perfectly aligned. Because if it goes bad, you can do eight or nine good deals, and if you have one deal that goes bad, that can tank you and leave unbelievable damage to you, your credit, and your future ability to transact.

Joe Fairless: What’s the next lesson?

Jack Miller: I would say don’t fall in love with the deal. A lot of people fall in love with the deal, they fall in love with doing deals, and they put good logic to the side. You need to approach it from a business point of view. The deal is not going to love you, so don’t love the deal. So approach it very analytical, with your comparables be conservative… You see people and they’re too optimistic with their estimate on repairs, or too optimistic on their hold time, or too optimistic on what they’re going to sell it for… I would say, approach it from a pessimistic point of view, and if it works as a pessimistic point of view, the deal will surely work. Again, I don’t want you to think I’m a pessimist. I’m the ultimate optimist. But if everything works and you’re conservative, it’ll surely work when you’re optimistic.

Joe Fairless: Don’t love the deal, because the deal won’t love you. I love that.

Jack Miller: There’s no love back.

Joe Fairless: There’s no love back. No reciprocity at all.

Jack Miller: No reciprocity. The deal will suck up your money, and destroy you, and cause you sleepless nights like you wouldn’t believe.

Joe Fairless: What’s the next lesson?

Jack Miller: More people and companies die from indigestion than starvation. So what we see a lot is somebody will do one or two or three deals, they’ll make a good amount of money, and then instead of doing one or two or three at a time, all of a sudden they’re doing five deals at once. And that’s the wrong approach; I would say take it slow, do one deal, get it done, do another… Again, more people and more companies die of indigestion by growing too fast, than of starvation.

Joe Fairless: So, I imagine you see that a lot from the lending standpoint?

Jack Miller: Yes.

Joe Fairless: So tell us an example or two with as specific as you can get or remember about that.

Jack Miller: Over the past 30 years I’ve really had the privilege to work with some much more talented people than me. And I’ve seen time and time again, we have tremendous talent, tremendous well intent, and tremendous knowledge, and they over-expand. They’ll do one deal, they’ll do two deals, and they think they’re the best thing since sliced bread.

And all of a sudden they have four properties under agreement of sale. And inevitably, something happens that will tank them. It could be something like the coronavirus, it could be an economic meltdown, or it could be just the deals. You can’t do too many things at once. It’s just hard. It takes time to build up that infrastructure.

Joe Fairless: What’s the next lesson?

Jack Miller: A deal of a lifetime comes about every day. I hear all the time, “Oh, this is the best deal in the world. This is the deal of the lifetime.” I literally hear that just about every day from somebody. The reality is if you’re in there, you’re going to always find a good deal. And they’re all sort of interrelated, because people think “Oh, this is such a great deal. I can’t say no.” They fall in love with the idea of it. So with that comes the same thing as people are over-expanding. In order to do a deal, the deal has to be perfect, but your timing has to be perfect, too. You have to have the mental focus to be able to do the deal, the financial wherewithal to be able to do the deal, if something goes wrong. So again, don’t fall into that “This is a deal of a lifetime.” Because if you’re out there looking, they will come all the time. If you’re at home, sitting on your sofa playing video games, they’re not going to come all the time. But if you’re out there in the mix, they’ll be in there with you.

Joe Fairless: The first four lessons all relate to slowing down, be conservative about how you’re running the numbers, and make sure that you are not growing too fast. This seems like a consistent theme.

Jack Miller: Yes, it is, because that’s how I see people blow up. They want to do so much, because it’s so exciting and so energetic, it’s like a drug. But I see the need to slow down, they need to be more conservative. And those are really the same philosophies, by the way, that if you would read a book about Warren Buffett, or listen to him, he basically says the same thing. He says learn to say no. If you say no more, you’ll be better off. Because I’ve seen, and I see all the time, we have tremendously talented people who will explode and implode because they’re doing too much, or they’ve made the wrong decision.

Joe Fairless: What’s the next lesson?

Jack Miller: The devil’s in the details. We see all the time where people — especially now with the internet where you can be in one part of the country and see a property virtually in another part of the country. You could be in Texas and buy something in Des Moines, Iowa. And if you depend on other people to do the due diligence, usually something goes wrong. So my next one is, the devil is in the details. You need to understand the deal from every aspect. If the property needs work, how much work does it need? Don’t just take the realtor’s word that “Oh, he got you a contract.” Or how did you hear? He says ‘”Oh, the realtor got me a contract [unintelligible [00:10:33].26]” Or check-in with the township to make sure that you don’t need permits, or you do need permits. Factor it in.

A common mistake is when people buy properties, in some cities the real estate taxes are reassessed based on a sale. So a sale triggers it. So I see all the time the taxes are based on, let’s say $100,000 value, and someone’s buying something for 300,000, but they’re underwriting the deals based on the $100,000 taxes. They don’t realize that as soon as that deed’s recorded, the city’s going to triple the taxes. So it comes down to do your due diligence, know every aspect of the deal, again, from the buy, from the due diligence, from the contracting, from a zoning perspective, from a potential tenant perspective, read all the ordinances, read the leases…

I see it all the time where in a lease, a lot of times in commercial property, a prospective borrower, all they’ll read is the dollar amount the tenant’s paying and the lease term, but they don’t realize there’s co-tenancy clauses in there or other clauses that the tenant can leave for different reasons. So again, it comes to the devil is always in the details. That’s critical. You have to know these deals inside out and don’t depend on somebody else. It’s very easy to depend on someone else to do the due diligence; but you can almost bet that whoever you’re depending on is going to be long gone when the poopoo hits the fan.

Joe Fairless: Co-tenancy clause, for anyone who’s not familiar with it – will you elaborate on why that could be an issue?

Jack Miller: So co-tenancy is common in commercial real estate, it’s very common in retail. So what a co-tenancy means is, let’s say you have a shopping center, and you have a major supermarket in there, and you have five or six other little stores who are anchors. Those stores may come in and say “Hey, we’ll be a tenant as long as that supermarket’s there. But if that supermarket leaves, we could leave, too.” So a co-tenancy clause has to do with the tenancy of somebody else’s. And you see that a lot, especially now with Corona, with big stores going out of business. You have not only the big stores go out of business; if you have a co-tenancy in your lease, you could see the smaller stores leave or pay reduced rents. So you need to understand co-tenancy, and you need to understand if it’s in your leases.

Joe Fairless: Oh, absolutely. That could torpedo a deal quickly, and that could also bring in novice investors to buy a property who they think they’re getting a good discount, but in reality, they’re not getting a discount at all, because there’s no income that’s going to be happening in about three months after they buy it, because all the tenants are going to leave.

Jack Miller: People think I’m crazy, but I actually love reading leases; and they’re boring as could be, but you know what? I find it fascinating, and I tell buyers that you need to understand every clause in the lease… Because there’s a lot of times good clauses too, that you don’t understand. And it’s that way with every part of the deal – you have to really understand the deal. And again, don’t depend on somebody else to have your best interests at heart, because usually they don’t; they have their best interests at heart.

Joe Fairless: Lesson number six.

Jack Miller: Lesson number six really comes down to — I call it the three main parts of the deal. You think about every deal, I divided it into three parts. It’s the purchase, and maybe the fix-up if it’s a fix-up, it’s the management, and it’s the sale of it. And you have to really be an expert at all three parts. Again, if it’s not a fix up, it’s the purchase, and the leasing, and the management, and the sale. But we’ve seen so many people over the years who are really experts at one or two, but they’re not good at the third one, and the whole thing blows apart. Years ago – and I’m going back 20 years – there was one of the best buyers I’ve ever seen in the real estate business in Philadelphia. I’m going to call him Joe; that’s not his name.

Joe Fairless: Hey.

Jack Miller: He must have owned 100 or 200 properties, all in a prime section, and he bought them all for 30, 40 cents on the dollar. He was literally one of the best negotiators, and this guy could sniff out deals. Unbelievable. We have provided him financing, because every deal he bought was really a great deal. What I quickly learned was that this guy was a lousy manager. He couldn’t manage the property. He couldn’t deal with the tenants in the repairs. And he unfortunately had, I’m guessing 150, 200, properties, maybe 100 properties, all beautiful properties; he ultimately lost them all, and gone out of the business because he wasn’t good at the middle part, the managing and dealing with the tenants part. And he wasn’t good at selling them, because he could never sell them, because he always thought it was worth five times what the market would bring.

So he was one of the most masterful buyers of properties I ever saw, but he really wasn’t good at the other two things, and ultimately that was his downfall. So what I call the three main parts of the deal – we all can’t be good at different things, I’m lousy at a lot of things, but you have to know what you’re good and what you’re lousy at, or not as good, and outsource that, find a good property manager, find a partner who’s great at the things you’re bad at.

Joe Fairless: We’ve got time for one more. What’s one more lesson that you’ve learned?

Jack Miller: Think long term. What encompasses that is the power of compounding. When we do a deal, we think on a 10, or 15, or 20, or 30-year horizon. A lot of people are thinking six months and a year. And I think that’s the wrong approach. I think people who want to get rich quick, they tend to implode pretty quick. I have a sign on my door, it says “Get rich slow.”

Joe Fairless: What about the business models where it’s a value-add deal and you’re looking to exit out after five years?

Jack Miller: Nothing wrong with that. We’re in the middle of doing a deal now. As a buyer, we think we’re going to exit out within six to nine months. But sometimes you can’t. And you have to be prepared for the long haul. Corona is a perfect example of it, nobody could have predicted it before it happened.

Joe Fairless: On that six to nine-month projected exit, what specifically do you do or how do you approach, thinking long term, since you’re projecting that short of an exit?

Jack Miller: A few things. One, we stress test it instead of selling it. If we rent it out, how’s that going to look? And can we rent it out? Is our financing or our capital stack prepared for a long term hold, as opposed to a short term hold? Do we have the cash to be able to hold it if it doesn’t sell right away?

So I think it’s just looking at the deal from a 360 degree and saying “Okay, if I can’t sell it for what I want to sell it or what I need to sell it at, am I okay holding?”

Joe Fairless: Very, very helpful. How can the Best Ever listeners learn more about what you and your team are doing, Jack?

Jack Miller: You can go to geltfinancial.com. That’s the easiest way. We have a YouTube channel, it’s Gelt Financial. And just check us out on social media.

Joe Fairless: We ended up with seven lessons that you’ve learned from your experience, and I’m grateful that you shared them. Certainly, be conservative, continue to be methodical about the acquisition process, and make sure that you have experts on your team to address each of the areas of the deal throughout its lifecycle. The acquisition, the management, the sale process of it… And to stress test deals to make sure that even if you are projecting, in your case, a six to nine-month exit, or a five-year exit, or some other exit, it doesn’t matter, look at the scenarios where if that doesn’t take place, what will you do? And do you have enough money to withstand that? And is there financing in place that will allow that? If not, what would be your plan for acquiring that during the ownership periods?

So thanks for being on the show, Jack. I really appreciate it. Hope you have a Best Ever weekend and talk to you soon.

Jack Miller: My pleasure. Have a great day.

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JF1675: Big Time Commercial Lender Has A Secret For Success In Any Market Cycle with Jack Miller

Okay so the secret is not so much a secret, when the economy changes, and changes his business, Jack and his team will reinvent themselves and business. They continue to thrive regardless of what is happening outside of the business because of this. Hear how to change on the fly for continued growth and success at any level. If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!

 

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“The only thing in life you can be sure of is change, so you might as well embrace it” – Jack Miller

 

Jack Miller Real Estate Background:

 


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TRANSCRIPTION

Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the  best advice ever,  we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff. With us today, Jack Miller. How are you doing, Jack?

Jack Miller: I’m doing excellent, Joe. How are you doing?

Joe Fairless: Well, I’m doing excellent, too. I like that, and looking forward to our conversation. Jack is the president and founder of Gelt Financial Corporation. Since founding Gelt, he’s made over 10,000, in excess of one billion (B) dollars. Based in Boca Raton, Florida. You can learn more about his company on his website, which is in the show notes, so you can just click that.

With that being said, Jack, do you wanna give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and your current focus?

Jack Miller: Sure. I started in the commercial real estate lending business many years ago. I’m 56, I started when I was about 17 or 18. I started when rates were in the teens; I’ve experienced all sorts of markets. We lived through the last recession/depression/whatever you wanna call it, and with that comes a lot of grey hair, some broken bones and bruised ribs, and some embarrassments along the way… But we’re survivors here, and as you said, we’ve done well over 10,000 loans and well over a billion dollars in business, through literally decades now. We’re well over 30 years old.

We love the business. We’re very lucky. We have a very committed team, who really enjoys what we do, so it makes every day a pleasure. We get to help people throughout the country. Everyone’s fairly new; no one lived through the last recession in 2006-2011. I said you’re right, you could say we’ve been in business almost 40 years, we’ve been doing deals, but the truth is we’ve had to reinvent ourselves at each cycle.

Joe Fairless: To the best of your knowledge and memory, can you take us through each of the cycles and what you had to do within that cycle to reinvent yourself?

Jack Miller: Sure. In the beginning – I started, as I said, in my late teens, early twenties, and rates were high; rates were 15%-16%, and they dropped to 13%, 12%. You just had to be alive and show up to work, because the rates were dropping so quick… It was pretty easy.

The first real cycle or downturn happened – to me, at least – in 1989. And what happened — it was called Long Term Capital, and it was affecting the Russian economy; Reagan was president… And all of a sudden, the secondary market dried up. At the same time, a lot of the governmental policies put in place by, believe it or not, going back to Jimmy Carter, came to roost with affordable lending. Back in the day, the government was putting unbelievable pressure on lenders to lend money to people who frankly couldn’t afford it. And if you didn’t do it, they called you discriminatory. At that point we chose to get out of the residential, owner-occupied business. So we went from five offices, way before computers and internet – we went from five offices, about 55 people, to one office and about seven people, within a 24-hour period. Then we just had to reinvent ourselves. We had to ride out the wave.

But the big one was in 2008 to 2011 crash, which was a global economic meltdown. We had found that the whole market had collapsed, and everyone knew that real estate was a little overvalued and everyone was expecting a 10%-20% drop, but the government got involved, and due to a lot of regulatory issues, they called everyone’s loans. So we had to totally reinvent ourselves at that point as a company, and frankly it took us a long time to do it. It probably took us ten years to do it, and it was painful. I don’t wanna tell you it was fun; it wasn’t fun. A lot of nights proverbially crying on the sofa and feeling sorry for yourself, but you have to start from scratch, and we did, in terms of how we approach things.

At the same time, technology was changing very rapidly. Back in the day, I remember when fax machines came out (I’m dating myself), that was huge. But with the internet, everything has changed. We do business now all over the country, by one location, 24/7. Everyone operates on the internet now, including us.

I always say, change is inevitable. You have to embrace change. It’s the only thing in life you can be sure of, is change, so you might as well embrace it… And we’ve just learned to embrace it.

Joe Fairless: You mentioned you had to reinvent yourself and it took around ten years for the 2007 stuff… What specifically did you do to change how you were approaching things?

Jack Miller: At the time, prior to the crash, we were one of the largest – if not THE largest – non-bank lender in the Philadelphia Mid-Atlantic region… Which means people who weren’t going to banks were coming to us. We were one of the originators of the fix and flip program, and we were largely funded by banks. We would borrow money from banks and lend it out.

And what happened was, at the direction of the Federal Government, all of our banks – and we were performing – called all of our loans at once. So all of a sudden you get letters from banks that say “Hey, I want 10 million dollars in seven days, or I’m gonna throw you out the window. I want 8 million, I want 6 million.” They all called our loans. So we went from a high-volume shop borrowing money from banks, to currently we do not deal with banks at all. We refuse to deal with them. In fact, most of the work we do is very sadly banks are calling perfectly paying loans, and we’ve gone from an environment where underwriting decisions were made at the bank level and at a regional level; now almost every underwriting decision throughout the country is made at the governmental level.

So we now do a lot of loans who are paying their banks perfect, but for different reasons the banks either are calling the loans, refusing to lend them money, not renewing their balloons, or putting them in default. But instead of being funded by banks, we’re funded by equity. It gives us a lot more latitude, and frankly, we don’t have to put ourselves at risk of the tides of the government.

Joe Fairless: So you have investors who invest with you, and you then lend that money out to qualified applicants at a certain rate, and you get the spread.

Jack Miller: That’s correct. Family offices, very high net worth individuals. That’s correct.

Joe Fairless: Do you have a clause with them where you won’t be in a situation where Armageddon happens again in the economy and they want to do what the banks did to you, but because there’s this clause in the contract they can’t do that, where you can’t get 10 million dollar pay up in ten days?

Jack Miller: Yes, we do… And by the way, we had it in there with the banks as well, but when the economy collapsed… A lot of people forget what it was like during those years. It was literally [unintelligible [00:09:02].10]. So even though we had those clauses in our contracts with banks, frankly the banks didn’t care, and the government didn’t care. So when it’s the Wild West, as it was during those times, all bets are off. It almost doesn’t matter what you have in the contracts. But to answer your question – absolutely, we do.

Joe Fairless: What type of deals do you work on? Tell us some of the ranges of types of stuff you work on.

Jack Miller: Sure, I’ll give you examples of some deals we’ve recently closed. We recently closed  – I think last week or two weeks ago – a family-owned 4 or 5 gas stations in New Jersey. They paid their bills perfectly, hardworking, what I call soul of the earth; hardworking, everyone in the family worked for the family business, paid their bills perfectly, and a major bank would not renew their loans and put them in default because they weren’t verifying the correct income. They looked at their tax returns and they weren’t verifying all their income, through write-offs, and different paying salaries, and debt service coverage.

So the bank had started foreclosures. We were probably a month away from sheriff’s sale. Again, they were paying their bills perfectly and had great credit. We refinanced them. It was a great deal for us and it was a great deal for them.

We did another deal in New York, again, within the last two weeks. It was a mixed-use property; I think two stores, six or eight apartments… A bank had the loan. It was owned by a mother and a daughter. The mother was in her eighties, she lived in another country… They wanted to refinance it, but because the mother was living in another country, the bank wouldn’t do it and put it in foreclosure. We did it.

That’s standard for us – we take people with problems, and because we’re a small company, we can understand their issues, and we do those deals.

Conversely, we did a deal in Florida, again, within the past few weeks. A guy found a great deal on the property, didn’t have any money, we financed 100% of the property for him. I think he only came up with the appraisal money, probably $300-$400, and we gave him 100% of the money to buy it and fix it up, and he’ll flip it.

Joe Fairless: That’s really interesting. I’d like to talk a little bit about the last three things you’ve mentioned – the two scenarios plus that last thing. First, let’s talk about the two scenarios and then maybe we can talk about some other scenarios like that.

The first scenario – I was writing notes while you were talking; I think I caught it where the issue was they weren’t hitting some loan covenants based on a certain debt coverage ratio… Did I hear that correctly?

Jack Miller: You heard that exactly correctly. They were paying their mortgage perfectly, and because they were in technical violation, the bank would not extend it, and they put them in foreclosure.

Joe Fairless: Okay, so one was they put them in foreclosure because they weren’t adhering to a certain loan covenant as it relates to the debt service coverage ratio, right?

Jack Miller: Correct.

Joe Fairless: Okay. The second scenario was a different group had a performing property, but one of the owners lived out of the country, so they wouldn’t refi into another loan, right?

Jack Miller: That’s correct.

Joe Fairless: What are some other scenarios like that? And I ask because I find that really interesting… So that we can talk about some other esoteric scenarios, but that might come up with some listeners down the road, and it’s good to know now, “Hey, if I have a property where I own it with my grandpa, and he lives out of the country, after listening to this I might double-check with the bank that it’s okay that when we go for a new loan, they’re okay with that.” So what are some other scenarios that you can think of, that you’ve come across?

Jack Miller: In the area of technical defaults, I’ll give you one… I’ll divide it in two – I’ll give you one technical default, and I’ll give you a new purchase.

Joe Fairless: Okay.

Jack Miller: We did one in Pittsburgh, I’m gonna say right before the end of the year, maybe in December. A guy owned two retail centers and an office building that were 100% stabilized. Beautiful, big properties, nice tenants. He had another fourth unrelated property which was in Chapter 11. The bank called his loan for a technical reason, he was in technical default, and threatened to put him in foreclosure.

Joe Fairless: Because he had a separate property going through bankruptcy?

Jack Miller: That’s correct. Most people don’t read the loan documents in any great detail, and they don’t think that banks are gonna call a loan in technical default. And really prior to the last economic meltdown they didn’t. What happened in the last economic meltdown was all the rules had changed. Now you have what’s called TDRs (trouble debt relief) and the regulators are putting unbelievable pressure to get rid of any loans with any WARTs on them.

In this case, this guy had a loan of about 3,5 million dollars, which he was paying perfectly to the bank, but the bank put him in default and said “Hey, unless you pay us off, we’re gonna take these properties because of the governmental intervention”, because of a fourth unrelated property. If you would go through the loan documents that you sign, it would scare the you-know-what out of you. So he was thrilled to come to us, because he was scared to death of losing these properties, which by the way, I think were in his family for 20-30 years.

We did a property in Atlantic City, New Jersey. A nice, young couple owned what’s called a BodeGo, a little grocery store.

Joe Fairless: Sure.

Jack Miller: You know how they sell lottery tickets there, and the newspapers, and probably some beer, who knows what. Hardworking, soul of the earth people; just great people. They worked their behinds off. They were renting, and the opportunity became available to buy a property two doors away. They tried every bank in the area and they could not get financed because theirs was a cash business, they didn’t verify a lot of income, a lot of the money for the down payment was not seasoned in the bank, they had large deposits… It didn’t meet a bank’s guidelines, and it was frankly too small for a bank. They only wanted to borrow $100,000.

We looked at it, we literally approved it within an hour of us seeing it, and we closed the loan two weeks later.

Joe Fairless: Now, what questions did you ask in order to approve it in that short period of time?

Jack Miller: We looked at their current business, we saw how long they were there, we looked at their credit, which was not in-depth, but we saw they were paying their bills. They were in business for 8-9 years. They were putting 30% or 40% down… So you can tell very quickly when you talk to someone and you look at some preliminary documents – we did that under a no Income Verification Program – that these guys are gonna be great payers, and these guys are just good people.

Joe Fairless: As far as that down payment not being seasoned, why would a bank care about that? And why did you not care about that?

Jack Miller: Banks care because, again, regulatory issues. They wanna make sure that it’s not borrowed money, it’s not ill-gained money, or anything of that nature. We on the other hand said “Look, they’re paying X for the property” (I think it was 175k), and that was the market, and I think we lent them like $100,000. We looked at it and said – you know what, in a lot of communities it’s commonplace to borrow money or have family chip in and support one another, whether with loans, or gifts to each other… So we looked at it and we said “This is an incredibly safe loan.” And I have news for you – again, we’ve done tens of thousands of these loans, but this particular type of loan, where they’re probably getting the money from what we call chipping in from the family to help them, it’s commonplace… And these loans almost never go bad. Never.

Joe Fairless: Now, let’s talk about the third thing you mentioned initially, and that is a 100% loan. Will you go over that again?

Jack Miller: Sure. And by the way, I’m telling you about one guy which happened to be in Coral Gables, Florida, but we’ve done this thousands of times, and we actively look for this. So this is just one guy. The guy approaches us, and it turns out he knew of a property he could buy cheap… It’s a long story, but his mother was friends with the lady who used to live there, who passed away… A whole big story. But he thought he could buy well below replacement value and market value. He actually was a prison guard, and he thought he could fix it up for X dollars… But he didn’t have any money.

We looked at it and said “It is a good deal, and whether he can fix it up or we have to use a contractor to fix it up,  either way it’s a fantastic deal.” So we financed the purchase price, the closing cost and the repair money for him.

Joe Fairless: Why do you actively look for deals like that?

Jack Miller: Oh, we love those deals. First of all, it’s a feel-good loan. When someone comes to us with the idea to make money by using their hard work and their ingenuity, and their sweat, and their toil, we just love those deals… When someone says “Hey, here’s an opportunity, here’s the vision. Help me get there.” And look, we make money off it, too; we’re certainly a for-profit, and we make a good amount of money off those. But we find those very satisfying to do, and usually they work out very well. I’m not saying — there’s always cost overruns, and what you think is gonna take 90 days always takes double the amount of time, but… We love that product – buying something below the market, fixing it up, and either reselling it or renting it. We’re always looking for those deals.

Joe Fairless: Based on your experience in the industry, what’s your best advice ever for real estate investors?

Jack Miller: Get rich slow. Most people want to get rich quick, most people are looking to be extremely aggressive, and I tell people “Get rich slow.” The people who wanna get rich quick usually at the end of the day they lose everything.

Joe Fairless: We’re gonna do a lightning round. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?

Jack Miller: I’m ready, I’m excited!

Joe Fairless: Alright, let’s do it! First, a quick word from our Best Ever partners.

Break: [00:19:18].27] to [00:20:15].21]

Joe Fairless: Okay, best ever book you’ve recently read?

Jack Miller: It’s a tough one; I’m an avid reader. But I would say “Behind the Golden Arches.” The story of McDonald’s.

Joe Fairless: What’s the best ever transaction you’ve done?

Jack Miller: There’s been so many of them… I could go on, because — this is recently in my head; there was an owner of a retail chain of auto part stores in the Delaware area, husband and wife team, worked probably 30 hours a day. Not 24, 30. They’d built this business up, and again, the bank put them in default. They were literally weeks away from losing their business, their house… They were a  mess.

We came through, we saw the deal, we closed the deal… They were so emotional. I remember, after closing, her  thanking us so much; I broke down in tears on the phone. And I have that story — I don’t wanna say every day, but there’s everyday another story where we’re helping people that the banks are abandoning people. So there’s thousands of those stories down there, and I love them all.

Joe Fairless: What’s a mistake you’ve made on a transaction?

Jack Miller: Being too optimistic, letting someone’s passion sell me. We get calls, and almost all investors only see the good; they don’t see the bad, they don’t see the potholes along the way… So you have to separate yourself from that, and be prepared for the worst; hope for the best, but be prepared for the worst.

Joe Fairless: What’s something that you’ve done to safeguard against that in your process?

Jack Miller: First of all, we have systems, policies and procedures, so we really try not to make exceptions to the rules, because the rules are there to protect us… But I try not to become emotionally involved in the opportunity. Because when you do, at least I sometimes let down my guard; and when I have my guard, it’s actually not only for my benefit, it’s for the potential borrower or client’s benefit.

I like to think the best reason that people come to us — look, it’s money, it’s a commodity; my money is the same as everyone else’s. It’s because our depth of experience, of not only me, but of the staff. So we are constantly helping our borrowers from being ripped off by contractors, and realtors, and everyone else down there. I think that’s a huge value-add that we bring, that most people just don’t have that experience.

Joe Fairless: How can the Best Ever listeners learn more about what you’ve got going on?

Jack Miller: Go to geltfinancial.com. That’s a great way.

Joe Fairless: Thank you so much, Jack, for sharing the insights that you have from multiple decades in the industry, and how you reinvented your company after a couple cycles that we discussed on the show, as well as the challenges that borrowers might come across. A lot of them can be unique challenges, but if there’s a lot of different, unique challenges, then odds are then one of those unique challenges might come up again, and not become as unique, because it seems like there’s a lot of scenarios that you talked about, with technical defaults especially, given the troubled debt relief acts, as you recalled earlier.

The international owners who couldn’t refi, having a separate property going through bankruptcy, and then that being a domino effect for someone’s other properties, being in technical default through a debt service coverage ratio so they won’t renew the loan – all these things are things that we should keep in mind as real estate investors should we be coming up on a refinance, so that we make sure that we are proactively addressing it, versus being put in a corner.

Thanks again for being on the show. I hope you have a best ever day, and we’ll talk to you soon.

Jack Miller: Joe, thank you very much for educating America on real estate. You’re the man.

 

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Best Ever Show Real Estate Advice

JF637: How He Leverages Students in Training to Invest and ADD Value

Today’s guest has assisted many new students in the real estate investing realm of Wholeseller. He started out as a landlord and later changed his business plan into a fix and flip/wholesale operation. With an extensive buyers list and a fleet of new investors, our guest helps them achieve their goals while they help him achieve his.

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Lex Levinrad Real Estate Background:

– Founder of Distressed Real Estate Institute
– Author of 7 books on REI
– Based in Boca Raton, Florida
– You can reach him at lexlevinrad.com

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We make funding your projects easy so you can focus on what you do best…rehabilitating homes. Learn more at http://www.fundthatflip.com/bestever.

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JF440: Live Your PASSION by Having the End in Mind with Kent Clothier

He decided to live near the beach in California because of his lifestyle he created. While being a world class wholesale genius, our Best Ever guest moved to California where he enjoys the fruits of his labor…while others labor. He is an advocate of framing your business around your passion, and to do that, you must have the “end in mind”. He shares the automation and systems that allows him that freedom. Keep an ear close to this episode!

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Kent Clothier’s real estate background:

  • Within 18 months after starting in real estate full time he wholesaled 91 houses throughout South Florida
  • Founder and CEO of REI Marketing, a multi-faceted real estate education and marketing company based in Boca Raton, Florida
  • His team is responsible for the development of real estate tools such as 1-800-Sell-Now, Find Motivated Sellers Now and Find Private Money Now
  • Member of Memphis Invest

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Made Possible Because of Our Best Ever Sponsors:

You find the deals. We’ll fund them. Yes, it’s that simple. Fund That Flip is an online lender that provides fast and affordable capital to real estate investors. We make funding your projects easy so you can focus on what you do best…rehabilitating homes. Learn more at http://www.fundthatflip.com/bestever.

What’s the Best Ever health plan for YOU?

Go to http://www.stridehealth.com/bestever and find a better health plan in 10 minutes or less. On average you’ll save $418 on coverage and care.

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Best Ever Show Real Estate Advice

JF283: How to Look at Deals From A Different Perspective

Today’s Best Ever guest shares with us how he looks at deals differently than you probably do, and why there HAS to be something to lose on both sides of the investment in order to win. Listen up, because today’s episode is PACKED with value.

Best Ever Tweet:

Steven Bettinger’s real estate background:

–          CEO and co-Founder of Acquire Real Estate an online crowd investing platform

–          2-time national lacrosse champion at Syracuse

–          40 under 40 business professionals in South Florida

–          Based in Boca Raton, Florida

–          Download Steven’s sample document here: https://goo.gl/GolCrH

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Made Possible Because of Our Best Ever Sponsor:

Patch of Land – Want to learn more about crowdfunding? Let the leading expert in the crowdfunding space, Patch of Land, give you all the info you need to get started. Grab your FREE copy of Top Ten Answers to the Top Ten Crowdfunding Questions athttp://www.PatchOfLand.com/bestever

The Land Geek – Do you want to build monthy real estate cashflow without the typical headaches? Start learning about investing without all the typical headaches at  http://www.thelandgeek.com/best

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Joe Fairless