JF2575: 500 Units and $50M in AUM with Vikram Brar
After growing up in a disciplined household in India, Vikram Brar moved to San Francisco and picked up the Tucson, AZ market. He’s grown to over 500 units now, with over $50M in assets under management. Vikram is sharing his top three challenges of starting a fund, how he is continually raising capital, and how his capital income dictates the way he looks at future deals.
Vikram and Princi Brar Real Estate Background:
- Vikram and Princi are co-founders of Waahe Capital
- Vikram leads acquisitions, investor relationships, and operations, while Princi focuses on true value creation through modern design, strategic sourcing, and cost-effective renovations
- Portfolio consists of 517 units and $51,773,000 assets under management, and just acquired their eighth multifamily property
- As a vertically integrated organization, they are very actively involved with focuses including multifamily asset acquisition, property management (in-house), redevelopment (including in-house construction & design teams), and asset management
- Based in San Francisco, CA
- Say hi to him at: WaaheCapital.com
- Best Ever Book: Napoleon Hill Books
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Ash Patel: Hello, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show. I’m Ash Patel and I’m with today’s guest, Vikram Brar. Vikram is joining us from San Francisco, California. He has over 500 units with a valuation of $50 million of assets under management, and he’s vertically integrated to handle management and redevelopment.
Vikram, thank you for joining us, and how are you today?
Vikram Brar: I’m doing great. Thank you so much, Ash, for having me on the podcast.
Ash Patel: It’s our pleasure. Before we get started, can you give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you’re focused on now?
Vikram Brar: Sure. So going back a few years, I was born and brought up in India. My father was in the Indian Army, so we grew up in a very disciplined household. We had our chores, we knew exactly what to do, we were very focused. From there on, I went into industrial engineering and then I came to the US for my Master’s. So with industrial engineering process, growing up in a disciplined life, organically for me, I shifted towards process engineering and solving problems through having very scalable and defined processes.
So I worked in automotive in Detroit, and then from there, I went to Deloitte for supply chain strategy, and then I transitioned into startups in the San Francisco Bay Area. My wife happened to move here; she got a job at Applied Materials, which is one of the Fortune 50 companies, and for me, I saw the startup world, I saw the need of having manufacturing, as startups were getting into manufacturing locally, and I saw that my desire for being in manufacturing practices and the need in the Bay Area for manufacturing, I pivoted into startups… And essentially, I spent the next 12 years building up scalable processes for med devices companies to neuroscience companies.
And then around 2013, we had a life-altering event, which made us think about what does wealth mean essentially, right? It’s much more than your 9-5; you cannot really depend on your W-2 income. And so that led us to generational wealth, finding out what leads to generational wealth, and obviously, real estate [unintelligible [00:02:56].02] subject, well talked about subject on that… And it took us couple years to find multifamily, but in between we did some single family condos… We did great; it was hard to go wrong in real estate in 2013. And from there on, Princi and I dove headfirst into multifamily, and we essentially looked at Tucson. We picked up the Tucson, Arizona market because it was late to recovery, the job numbers were doing great, and then it was very close to our San Francisco Bay Area. And we could go in and out because we still had our full-time jobs… And essentially, we got into multifamily and haven’t looked back yet.
Ash Patel: It’s quite a right turn from all of your engineering and process and startups. What was your first multifamily deal?
Vikram Brar: Our first multifamily deal was a 45 units that we bought in Tucson. Princi and I strongly believe in, “The more you can buy for your money, the better it is.” There’s many factors; I think it’s also well discussed on the show why that larger scale helps you in so many different fronts. So the first 118 units we essentially bought with our own capital… So we looked for a pure value-add. From day one, we knew we wanted to go into value-add multifamily assets.
At that time, I didn’t know the difference probably between distressed assets and value-add. You know, there’s minor nuances, but it can make a big difference. So that was our first deal, it was a 45 unit, and we essentially built out a fully vertically integrated model from that very first property.
Ash Patel: Okay, let’s focus on that for a second. So the 45-unit property you purchased all on your own.
Vikram Brar: Right.
Ash Patel: And what were those vertically integrated aspects that you put into place?
Vikram Brar: One of the first things we brought in-house was the property management. What we realized was, as you get into the second-tier cities, away from the—at that time, Tucson was still in that recovery phase. So we didn’t have some of the natural property management firms. And being in operations for almost all our professional career, me in manufacturing and Princi in financial, we were used to reacting and moving fast, right? If we see something, we see a data point, we’ve got to react, right? Especially when you’re dealing with a distressed asset.
And what we realized is just going through that chain of command and getting to the person who’s responsible for our property, it sometimes took a week just to have a minor conversation. So we knew for us to really get into this business and be able to do what we really wanted to do, we had to bring that property management piece inside.
And then, as far as renovations were concerned, we had a very clear agenda that we were going to provide the best possible eco-friendly units to the tenants, and have an impact, because we completely believe in impact investing. And to do that, in today’s market, we took a leaf out of our manufacturing and finance background, and we went sourcing materials directly overseas, right from the very first property. We have brought in containers from overseas, and we brought the best material that you can buy from the economical amount of money. The idea was not to go find the cheapest material for the cheapest price, it was to find the best material for the cheapest price that we can get, and that’s what led to our fully vertically integrated model.
Ash Patel: That is such a unique mindset. When somebody gets 45 units, they try to watch every dollar, buy things as cheap as possible. On the other hand, you knew that you were going to scale this business, so you treated this as the first of many, and put all your systems in place. Very interesting. So now, did you lose money on this? Or was it a moneymaker? Because you probably hired a property manager, even though you didn’t need somebody.
Vikram Brar: Absolutely. It’s a very interesting question. So the short answer – no, we didn’t lose any money. But we definitely lost time, because we were learning our own things, and that is really why we wanted to use our own capital, was to really learn the business ourselves, was to figure everything out. There’s one thing to be said about reading some material in books, versus doing it yourself.
So what we ended up doing was we did hire a property manager, and like you said, there was economies of scale; like, you have 45 units, like a full-time property manager – what do you do? So we bought a property next to it, that was 19 units, and we first made it to 64 units. And we bought a little portfolio around it, very close to the property, and that’s how we were able to quickly scale up to 118 units. And then what we ended up doing is, our construction here in the San Francisco Bay Area, we had a great relationship with a construction contractor, who we requested—his family was based closer to Arizona and California, so we requested him to come to Tucson, showed him what we were doing… And we had a 10-year relationship that we were able to bring him over there and convince him to essentially move to Tucson. He was our first employee of the construction site; so he essentially started that. He was somebody we could already trust, that had 10 years of experience, and then we had the property manager locally, who had the local intelligence, and he was born and brought up in the area. So with those two people, we could really do a lot. Yes, it did cost us money. Yes, it cost us a lot of sleepless nights. But in the end, we bought it for a little under $38k a door, and we refi’d over $106k a door. So it was a [unintelligible [00:07:46].08]
Ash Patel: Yeah. I think you’ve got it down correctly, because everyone else has the pain points and then they put the systems in place. Whereas you took the opposite approach, with your background and engineering, and put all the systems in place as you saw a need for it. So you had 118 units… What’s the next step?
Vikram Brar: So what we realized at that point was, we had essentially used most of our free capital. And either we wait for those cycles to refi cycle or sell cycle, and then we take that capital and go invest, or we started looking into syndication. We didn’t really know too much about syndication, to be very honest… And that is another one of the reasons initially we just used 100% of our capital, versus going out and getting a construction loan. I would do a few things a little bit different if I had to go back down and do them, that would make life a little bit easier… But hey, you live and learn.
Ash Patel: Let’s get into those. What are those points?
Vikram Brar: So I would definitely look at a construction loan, rather than just 100% putting all your available capital into a deal. I would definitely look at those construction loans, because they can really help with you; and then you have distressed asset loans, which I never thought anybody would give us a distressed asset loan back then. And then you have those loans, and then you have those loans itself, the lender keeps escrow money, to save up for one year of payments, and everything else… So that’s kind of less stressful when you’re sitting at home, but by no means is it not stressful; it is still stressful, but at least you know you have these cash reserves at different places.
Going back, on the hindsight, we had our incomes, our Silicon Valley incomes, so we knew we could make all those mortgage payments and everything else. We weren’t looking really for the cash flow from that property as much as we were looking for the experience, and to turn it around and get that big pop in the end. So yeah, those are the two minor differences; knowing that today, if I had to go back and do it, that’s what I would do.
Ash Patel: What is a distressed asset loan?
Vikram Brar: A distressed asset loan, essentially – it would still be a bridge loan of some sorts; then the loan-to-value might be lower, 50%. It could be even lower than 50%. But at least I’ve seen them come around 50%. Plus, they give you 100% of construction money; and then hold reserves back, so that they cover for about a year or so of mortgage payments.
Ash Patel: Got it. So Vikram, how did you go about raising capital for your next deal?
Vikram Brar: Yeah—
Ash Patel: Friends and family?
Vikram Brar: Friends and family, and we had somebody at the local network, we partnered up with a local capital raiser at that time. And we had friends and family, that we started approaching at that time. So essentially, after the next three or four deals, in the second deal that we syndicated, we got a family offers that started investing with smaller amounts. In the next deal, it was friends and family, and the family offers that we had been using subsequently.
Ash Patel: And what did the next deal look like?
Vikram Brar: That was also a distressed deal.
Ash Patel: Was it in Tucson?
Vikram Brar: It was in Tucson. We are recently coming off our eighth acquisition, and that is our first in Phoenix MSA. And prior to that, all our seven acquisitions have been in Tucson area. So we were hyperfocused, since it’s a vertically integrated business; the more we can have around the area is much more optimized for us. We can squeeze more juice out that way.
Ash Patel: So with $15 million of assets under management – what is your bottleneck right now?
Vikram Brar: Our bottleneck, I would say, is just the forming the capital, right? To get capital before you do a deal. In syndication side of the business, a typical syndicating model is you go in, you put a deal under contract, and then you’re raising capital. Yes, obviously, you’re having all those conversations upfront, but the money starts coming in after you close a deal.
So being a vertically integrated business, where you’re running everything, overseeing all these different processes and employees, what we realized is that we need to have more time to have that capital upfront. And we recognized that’s why we were thinking about launching a fund. We are working towards it, and we are educating ourselves. We’re talking to the people to figure that out. Because once we have that, everything else is a streamlined process. We have all people assigned, and then now it’s a thing about going and getting the capital to be able to rinse and repeat what we have figured out on the operation side.
Ash Patel: Yeah. Vikram, what are the challenges with starting a fund, in terms of the interaction with investors?
Vikram Brar: I think the very first thing is they’re going to be investing into something that’s out there in the future… Versus people who are used to seeing a deal, like numbers, versus some proformas or some projections that you’re saying like, “This is what we’re going to be doing.” So I think one thing is to able to convince that, and I think a lot of that has to show with your track record. What you have done? How have you taken these deals? What is your underwriting thing? And it’s even better if you have, like — I think honestly the first funds or a couple of funds are going to be your friends and family, just like your syndication deals, and maybe a couple of references that you bounce off of there. So those are your sort of what we call the initial believers, first thing. And then you have to cross the chasm and you get into the bigger field. So the initial are your early adopters, that is essentially going to be our friends and family and close references.
Ash Patel: And what do you think the time difference is between when you take people’s capital and find the deal? What’s that gap?
Vikram Brar: A very interesting question. For us, since we are hyper-focused in terms of market, I should say – we were, and now, as we’ve closed with the latest deal, we have opened up the Phoenix MSA… So we are actively underwriting deals. The beauty of Phoenix MSA is essentially almost every day, you’re getting a deal that kind of matches your investment criteria. So it is coming in. Now you have that deal flow, which – Tucson it’s not as rich as Phoenix. But now you have two markets, so that’s another reason why we opened up. So we’re finding great assets to go put LOIs on; a few a month. So essentially, we feel by the time we get to the fund and we start getting to the closing, there should not be too much of a gap between the close [unintelligible [00:15:19].06] the fund.
Ash Patel: And Vikram, in a typical fund, is there a return on investor capital while the cash is not deployed? Or is it only after it’s deployed?
Vikram Brar: It is only after, once the fund dissolved at the very end.
Ash Patel: Okay.
Vikram Brar: They’re getting a return on capital during that time.
Ash Patel: And this might be a tough question or a unique question – because you now have this burden of capital over you, whereas before, with most people, there’s the burden of finding deals and then raising capital, but now you’ve got the capital, does that change your decision-making and what type of deals you take on?
Vikram Brar: It should not. That’s the whole point, you should not change your numbers. Just because you have that capital sitting, and that burden, essentially, in one way to call it, it should not influence you go to any deal, or change our numbers or change your fundamentals. Because then that is a disservice to your investors. Yes, you have that capital, and if you are being vertically integrated, that’s another great effort. We look at deals very differently. Even people are saying, “Oh, the market has gotten so tight; there are not enough deals in the market, or there are not exactly deals.” Being vertically integrated and being able to control these different knobs, we can look at a deal very differently from the next person, and say, “What can we do to increase the NOI on this property?” And so given that advantage, versus the rigorous underwriting and not changing those basic fundamentals, is going to make sure we’re looking out for the best interests of the investors.
Ash Patel: Yeah, I love that mindset. Because all too often I’ve seen where just because there’s an abundance of capital, people will just deploy it, even though they’re hitting minimum returns, that’s great. But I love that you’re staying focused on using investors capital as if it was your own.
Vikram Brar: Right. Absolutely.
Ash Patel: That’s great. What are you doing to add value that’s unique, other than just renovations?
Vikram Brar: Just within the renovation process, we are doing a little bit different, in the sense we do full-blown — we are not afraid to go in and do a full-blown demo, and essentially bring the unit walls up again. So we are using eco-friendly cabinets that are [unintelligible [00:17:22].04] compliant on this stuff. We want to make sure the tenants have the least amount of emission possible out there from a material perspective, so that when they come home, they don’t have to worry about allergens, so that is a great place for them to come home to.
So we do a lot of that, we use 100% waterproof flooring, which is not only great for the tenant, in the sense – again, it’s completely formaldehyde-free; it’s great for them to breathe into. For us, it has hidden returns, because now when the unit turn comes along, the flooring is not damaged. It’s 100% waterproof, but there’s nothing to do from the flooring perspective; you just clean it up. Quartz countertops. No emissions, no absorption into the thing. It’s really, you have to even take a hammer, and even then a little bit more to kind of break that thing. So on unit terms, they’re very quick, they’re very economical, and so it’s looked really beautiful. One of the best looking units. We’re using [unintelligible [00:18:15].23] classic buildings. So these are very unique perspectives from those angles. And obviously, there’s so much optimization that can be done on pricing, past chargebacks, amenities, we’re bringing in all the locker systems and package systems, and those amenities fees get added on.
Obviously, there’s a strategy for dog parks, [unintelligible [00:18:35].26] corner units, pool view units. There’s so much you can do for price optimization when you start looking at the units, and seeing—we look at a unit as an individual, a standalone asset, rather than a floor plan. Because that particular unit within the same floor plan could be the end unit; you might have just one neighbor, versus two neighbors. You might have a great site view. There’s the beautiful Catalina Mountains in Tucson, and you might have one of the best views for those. So yeah, there’s so much optimization for pricing that can be done.
Ash Patel: And then you charge different prices based on the available unit.
Vikram Brar: Absolutely.
Ash Patel: interesting. I love that. Vikram, knowing you now for about 20 minutes, my guess is you’re not done vertically integrating. So what’s on the horizon? Are you looking to buy a granite mine for countertops? What’s next?
Vikram Brar: It’s funny you say that, because there’s no stopping once you start going down this path. So we look at the pain points. So how we’re approaching this is we look at pain points, and then we see how do I alleviate these pain points.
One of the biggest things that we are seeing right now is the supply chain from appliances. It’s really causing an impact on the velocity of the unit turns that we can do. It is an uncontrollable factor. So obviously, if I had my choice, I would right away get into white labeling appliances and getting those in-house under our umbrella.
Ash Patel: Or warehousing…
Vikram Brar: We have our own warehouse, too.
Ash Patel: Of course.
Vikram Brar: Yeah, I forgot to mention that one.
Ash Patel: Why wouldn’t you.
Vikram Brar: So since we are bringing in containers, we are always getting containers in-house. We recently got two containers of flooring, just because we were seeing a kind of supply chain tighten up a little bit, especially getting into the holiday season… So we have been pre-emptive and bringing in this for the future growth that we are going to acquire the assets for. So we’re making sure the velocity of the unit turns does not slow down.
Ash Patel: Vikram, when you were looking to expand out of Tucson, why did you pick Phoenix?
Vikram Brar: Arizona is an amazing market, Phoenix MSA is one of the top five… So there are market fundamentals that you just can’t beat. So having that as a neighbor – for us, we were very fortunate to have that. Plus, now looking at the other factors outside of the market, which obviously has to be the first, the other fundamental for us was operational, right? For operational, it’s an hour and a half away from our warehouse. And in the Bay Area, [unintelligible [00:22:54].08] I have to go from one side of the Bay to the other, that’s an hour and a half. Whereas Arizona is – yes, you’re traveling more distance, but you can travel in the same amount of time. So we can still manage those sites from our existing warehouse and a lot of existing pool of resources.
Ash Patel: Because it’s a hot market, the level of competition has to be fierce. How do you find deals in that market? Because I’ve seen cap rates in threes in Phoenix.
Vikram Brar: Yeah.
Ash Patel: How do you compete and find deals? Because this is not your backyard. Now you’re in somebody else’s house.
Vikram Brar: Yes. No, absolutely. Although I must say that Phoenix and Tucson – a lot of the brokerages, they have either the same brokers or they have partners within the brokers that are dealing in the same market. Now, Tucson is completely different. But going back 10 years, 20 years, Tucson was a sub-market or a satellite office for the guys in Phoenix. So we had those broker relationships that we had built over the last 5-6 years, that we were able to leverage in Phoenix MSA. And that’s exactly how we got our [Unintelligible [23:50] requirements, through that broker relationship that we had; we started underwriting, and as I mentioned, we have a few more arrows in our quiver that we can shoot out these things. So we looked at it and we found a great asset through that relationship [unintelligible [00:24:03].08] because they had met their return parameters. Although the market is moving so fast, there’s so much more juice to squeeze out. It was a great value-add asset for us and it was the right deal.
Ash Patel: Are you looking at other markets somewhere in the Midwest?
Vikram Brar: Not at this point. I’ve been very, very careful from early on. My partner, Princi, and I – every time we talk about these shiny object syndrome, we stop ourselves. We’re like, “Let’s focus, focus, focus.” Energy flows where focus goes, right? And so we’re making sure that we have these successful hubs before we start looking at something else, right? We didn’t move to Phoenix MSA — we could have moved a few years back, but we knew we had to completely build our Tucson to auto-run itself, so that once we go focus on Phoenix, we are not having to run back to Tucson because things are falling apart. So you’ve got to do that before you move on to something else.
Ash Patel: What was your hardest lesson learned in your entire real estate journey?
Vikram Brar: There were many lessons learned, but I think the one that rises to the top, if I had to pick one – definitely cash flow. You’ve got to focus on cash flow; you cannot compromise, you cannot take your eyes off it. That is it. And I think it is not just real estate, it’s probably anything and everything else.
Ash Patel: Yeah. Vikram, what advice would you give somebody that’s had a number of successful real estate deals on their own, and now they’re looking to syndicate? They’re right on that precipice of, “Do I syndicate or not?” What advice do you give that individual?
Vikram Brar: Great question. I think the best decision, the first decision you need to make – something we discussed right before, right? And somebody had once told me, which I found very profound, the more I thought about it, “stay in your lane.” Meaning, if you have worked out a formula, you know how it works, just because you’re syndicating, do not change that formula; stick to it, actually double down on that formula, because you have surety of success day one. So that is that, start having conversations with your friends and family prior, show them the deals, show them what it is, how you have been able to turn these other properties around, and then go in and just do your thing. It’ll be so much easier, versus trying to do something new just because there’s [Inaudible [26:08].
Ash Patel: Vikram, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?
Vikram Brar: Invest in yourself. And honestly, the last one which I said, stay in your lane. I’d say invest in yourself, listen to podcasts, listen to Joe’s books. I cannot tell you — I didn’t have any mentor, no coach in the real estate syndication side of the business. However, I’m not sure if I can say that, because I had—Joe had written that book, the Best Ever Syndication book. And I took that book and I literally followed it to the tee. And I think that was my best coach, because even though we had done stuff ourselves, it was my first syndication, I had a roadmap. As an engineer, I can definitely appreciate a roadmap, because that’s what we’re focused on all these years in engineering; and I found that. And that is what I mean by investing in yourself, looking at, talking, following people who have been successful in the field; success leaves clues, that’s for sure.
Ash Patel: Vikram, are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?
Vikram Brar: Yes, absolutely.
Ash Patel: Let’s do it. Vikram, what’s the best ever book you recently read?
Vikram Brar: The books, I obviously enjoy Napoleon Hill, Jack Canfield books. However, these days I’ve picked up webinars; there’s [unintelligible [00:27:10].01] webinars, which are very, very interesting, given the state of economy. It’s very unique times that we are going through, so I’m trying to educate myself more on the economic part of the market.
Ash Patel: And Vikram, what’s the best ever way you like to give back?
Vikram Brar: So as Waahe Capital, as Princi and I, we believe in impact investing, and in enriching lives. So for us, we look at a full cycle from tenants to employees to investors, and the neighborhoods that we invest in. So for tenants, as I mentioned, we try to give them the best possible materials we can give, eco-friendly, and give them very nice and beautiful units to live in, to call home. So that’s for our tenants.
For our employees, we give them opportunities to learn and grow, right? I think that’s the best thing you can do for anybody, is to help them become a better self for themselves. And we have morning meetings every single day, till this day; we started right when we started our journey. And in the meetings, we have an open forum where it’s about growth, so what worked yesterday, what did not work yesterday, and share it with the other employees so that people can learn from each other. And that builds that team mentality. We bring on software, we are always working on coaching programs to help people enroll and be their better selves as much as they want to.
And then for the investors, we make sure that capital is not only used to gain returns, but also impact lives, whether it’s our employees, whether it’s our tenants that are living in, whether it’s the neighborhoods that we’re impacting. As I mentioned, a lot of these distressed assets that we buy are on the fringe areas, meaning they’re probably pulling down the neighborhood or having a bad impact. By turning these neighborhoods around, changing the demographics, we’re able to turn around the entire neighborhood. Our best result is when the neighbors come in and tell us how good of a job we’re doing. And we’re starting to get that quite a bit, and that’s essentially for us the best food for whatever we are doing.
Ash Patel: Yeah, that is powerful. Vikram, how can the Best Ever listeners reach out to you?
Vikram Brar: The best way to get into contact is LinkedIn. I’m very responsive on LinkedIn. And then the other way to get a hold of us is through our website, waahecapital.com. Those are the two best ways to get a hold of me.
Ash Patel: Vikram, thank you so much for being on our show today, and sharing your journey from the engineering background and applying all of those lessons that you’ve learned into real estate and scaling that business to the success that it is today. So thank you for taking time out of your day and joining us.
Vikram Brar: Thank you so much, Ash, for having me.
Ash Patel: Best Ever listeners, thank you for joining us and have a best ever day.
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