JF2568: Preparing Assets for the Next Recession with Tate Siemer
Former ski photographer Tate Siemer moved to Utah and got his start in real estate with single-family homes. He wanted to scale faster but was unsure of how to find his next venture until a 12-unit apartment fell into his lap. Now, he’s reached the point where he’s more established and it’s much easier to find capital. Today, Tate is talking about his specific guidelines for future investments, and why he’s not concerned about capitalization rates and increased asset prices moving forward.
Tate Siemer Real Estate Background:
- Full-time syndicator/operator
- 16 years of real estate investing experience
- Owns 302 units assets under management, 252 units under contract
- Flipped over 40 SFRs, six land entitlement deals, two development projects, and six large-scale apartment projects
- Based in Salt Lake City, UT
- Say hi to him at: www.investwithgreenlight.com
- Best Ever Book: Man UNcivilized
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Ash Patel: Hello, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show. I’m Ash Patel and I’m with today’s guest, Tate Siemer. Tate is joining us from Salt Lake City, Utah. He’s a full-time syndicator and operator with 16 years of experience. Tate has 300 units under management and has 252 more under contract. He’s also flipped over 40 single-family rentals and has experience in development and land deals.
Tate, thank you for joining us, and how are you today?
Tate Siemer: Oh man, this is awesome. I’m great. And it’s a pleasure to be with you. Honored.
Ash Patel: Thank you. Before we get started, can you give us the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you’re focused on now?
Tate Siemer: Yeah, originally from Midwest Cincinnati, Ohio, grew up in the suburbs, went to college in Ohio. And quickly, in my adult life, moved, relocated to Salt Lake City, Utah, where I became a ski bum in my 20s, and a ski photographer, and then eventually, got into more formal photography type work; weddings and portraits. Found that that wasn’t going to support the lifestyle that I aspired to, and decided that real estate investing looked really fun from the outside, and I had friends – they were flipping a triplex at the time, so I took a really basic investment course in 2006, started flipping single-family houses here in Utah… And did 10 or so houses probably before the crash, also became a real estate agent and worked with other investors, and brokered deals as well.
The crash happened, I got out of real estate completely for some other business adventures, and waited for things to come back in the real estate world. And then in 2012, my current partner, Carl York, and myself started flipping single-family houses again in Salt Lake, and really got busy with it this time; did about 40 houses or so over the course of six years, and really ranged from anywhere from $170,000 house to $1.2 million scenario, and everything in between. And again, found that we weren’t able to scale that business to the degree that we wanted to as far as revenue and profit and, etc. So we started to expand our horizons into the development world where we built six townhomes, million-dollar high-end luxury townhomes in downtown Salt Lake. We also did a couple of land entitlement deals, where we bought raw land and had the official entitlement work done, so that they were permitted for development projects, and then we sold those projects to developers.
And in the meantime, we had a 12-unit apartment fall in our lap. Literally, somebody brought it to us and said, “You guys should do this. It’s a great deal, here’s why, here’s how you should do it, etc.” And we had thought about apartments, but not really seriously. I never really got my head around “This is something that I could really do and do well” and do full-time and make it our focus.
That deal turned out to be a really good deal for us. We did a full gut job remodel on the whole building, everything from windows to floors to roof to mechanicals, etc, and made up from that flip; we didn’t cash-flow it; kind of wish we had kept it and figured out a way to cash-flow it now, because of the worth quite a bit more now. But that really launched our larger-scale apartment quest, and we’ve since been in search of the big unit count asset. So we own a 20 unit here in Utah, but then we own 179 units in Mansfield, Ohio, and 70 units in Columbus, Ohio, 51 units in Oklahoma City… We have 192 under contract in Oklahoma City, and another 60 in Columbus that we’re about to close on, and we are about to go under contract on community that’s just under 400 units in Oklahoma City. So we’re cooking right now. It’s kind of taken a couple years to really come to this point of blossoming, so to speak… But we’re in that stage of — we’ve gotten past our first big deals now, so people are taking us seriously, brokers are bringing us deals, it’s easier to find money, easier to find Capital Partners, and we’re on a really great path. So that’s kind of what we’re up to.
Ash Patel: Tate, that’s a hell of a run. When was your first syndication?
Tate Siemer: First syndication, technically, was this year. We closed our 20 unit last summer and we have investors in that, but it’s set up as a joint venture. So it’s technically not a syndication. So the first through syndication we did and closed on, we closed on just—what was that now—about, I guess, 5-6 months ago. So we’re still pretty new to this game, and we’re getting our asset management game on and learning all the ins and outs about that. But we’ve got a lot of experience on our team, I’ve got two other partners in addition to Carl, now. One of our partners has about $100 million portfolio here in Salt Lake of apartments, and has a ton of property management experience and construction experience… So we’re well resourced, and partnering up with him was one of the best things we ever did, by the way.
Ash Patel: Tate, when you were flipping the 40 houses and the 12 unit, where did the capital come from?
Tate Siemer: On houses, we used hard money all the time. We have a great hard money connection broker here in town, and we’ve been working with him for almost 10 years now, on most of our deals. We found that hard money is quick and nimble and flexible, and when you have a good broker that knows you and knows your credit profile, and basically just can tell you a yes or a no pretty quickly, that’s a really good position to be in.
Ash Patel: What are the terms on that?
Tate Siemer: We typically were paying two origination points and about 12%, sometimes 10%. And we’ve used other hard money sources, too; family, friends, for stuff like that. And then on that 12-unit, we actually got a construction loan. So essentially, a bridge loan that paid for the purchase and for the renovation. And we had to bring, I believe, about $150,000 to the table, and we actually found an investor for that. So we did that whole deal, essentially no money out of pocket. We had to bring in some money at the end to kind of shore up some things, some over budget items. But for the most part, that was a no-money-out-of-pocket deal for us. And we’ve continued to raise capital from family, friends, network, just basically doing business and meeting people.
Ash Patel: Your first syndication, how many units was that?
Tate Siemer: Well, we closed our 70-unit in Columbus, and our 179-unit in Mansfield almost simultaneously.
Ash Patel: Both of those were syndications?
Tate Siemer: They were.
Ash Patel: Okay, are the returns on both units pretty similar?
Tate Siemer: Yeah, they are; they’re in the mid to high teens IRR on both of those deals. We either do a seven or an eight pref to our LP investors, and then we do a 70/30 split or a 60/40 split, depending on the deal on how much it returns in the way of revenue. So that’s kind of how we set things up.
Ash Patel: And is that a guaranteed pref?
Tate Siemer: It is a guaranteed pref.
Ash Patel: Okay. What’s your projected hold time? Because this is your first year.
Tate Siemer: Those first two deals, we’re looking probably close to a three-year hold, as opposed to a five-year hold. We usually look at both a three and a five-year hold scenario, because the three years is a good point to refinance, which is a great exit strategy, especially if we’re trying to keep property for the long-term, which we are ultimately; we will refinance our investors out sometime and retain the property. We’ve got a seven-year hold that we’re modeling right now and the reason why it’s seven is because we’re assuming alone… But it’s a fantastic loan, so it’s worth assuming, and it’s got about a seven-year term left on it.
Ash Patel: What’s the rate on that loan?
Tate Siemer: It’s in the high threes.
Ash Patel: And is guaranteed, for how long?
Tate Siemer: Guaranteed for the term of the loan, which is another seven years.
Ash Patel: Tate, if you refinance a property, what do your investors get as a return? Do they get the projected amount, you thank them for their investment, and off to the next one?
Tate Siemer: Yeah, that’s basically it. We try to provide investors every single time what we have – not promised, but what we’ve projected, and make them very happy. Our investors and our residents are the people that we serve in our business, so they’re our top priority along with the residents, and we’re always thinking about things from their eyes, what their needs might be, what their wants might be, and what’s a good win for them in the long run. So yeah, they will get their capital back, get the refi, and then they will get what their projected return was.
Ash Patel: Tate, one of your partners has $100 million portfolio. Why syndicate and why not just use him as your investor?
Tate Siemer: Well, he’s like everybody else. He’s doing lots and lots of deals all the time. So this whole game with apartments is finding deals and finding dollars. And you can have $100 million out there working for you, and still be finding new deals and still needing more capital to do the deal. So we, as a team, are always raising capital, and always bringing in capital partners and syndication partners, because we always have new deals coming in, and everybody’s got their ceiling, even somebody with really deep pockets and a big portfolio. What that portfolio allows us to do, and what his net worth allows us to do—because he owns a big chunk of that portfolio outright—is it allows us to borrow a lot of money. He qualifies for loans that we otherwise would not qualify for. So it’s an incredibly powerful weapon I guess, to have in our arsenal, you know.
Ash Patel: Yeah, absolutely. And where do you find those loans? Is it institutions? Is it Wall Street?
Tate Siemer: Yeah, institutions. Small banks right now are fantastic sources for apartment building loans and bridge loans, construction loans, credit unions are good… We did our 28 unit with a credit union loan; that basically is set up as a construction loan. And then we do look at agency debt, when we’re looking at a more of a permanent sort of hold. So yeah, we look at that, too.
Ash Patel: Yeah, small banks, I agree are incredible to work with, but they often have legal lending limits where they can’t take on some of the larger projects. Have you ran into that?
Tate Siemer: We haven’t yet. The largest project that we’ve been working on is about $26 million. So we haven’t reached the ceiling yet as far as that goes.
Ash Patel: Is it a small bank or is it a regional bank? A local or a regional?
Tate Siemer: Well, we’re still sourcing that. So we’ve honed in, but we haven’t picked the horse yet, so to speak. But we’re looking at both.
Ash Patel: Tate, if you look back into your real estate career, what’s one thing you wished you did differently?
Tate Siemer: Oh, geez. So many things. But I wish that I could go back and have a conversation with myself about 10 years ago, and advise myself to put buying and holding property at the absolute number one priority in our business, and make everything else peripheral to that. So had we done that through this last boom, especially in Utah, we would be in a much different place than we are. Quite simply, we sold almost everything that we bought and renovated and improved. So we didn’t enjoy the long-term appreciation of those properties. So I would really go back and have a heart-to-heart with myself about that.
And then I would also include in that conversation the idea that going into bigger unit count assets with multifamily properties, in other words commercial apartments, is something that’s more doable than one might think at first glance, and it’s something that is doable for a go-getter and somebody that is very resourceful, and committed and dedicated. So that was something that 10 years ago I never would have believed, if somebody would have said you can do apartments, and you should do them right now; I maybe would have thought about it, but it took more than that to really get my head around it, that I could do it. And I have Adam Adams to thank for that of all people. He’s really the person who I have to attribute me changing my mindset to apartment investor mindset.
Ash Patel: That is great. Tate, you have the luxury of seeing what happened in 2008-2009. We’re in a long bull run. Are you concerned with what’s going to happen with the cap rates or asset prices going forward?
Tate Siemer: Not really. And I’ll tell you why. We’re based in Salt Lake City, right? But we’re buying in Oklahoma City and Columbus. And the reason we’re buying there is because we can buy assets that cash flow nicely, that pay the debt service well, that pay our investors well, that have leftover cash flow for the GP, and basically, our Class C, Class C-plus, Class B-minus type assets that do very, very well in a downturn. So should we see some sort of recession or pullback in the market, or even cap rates going up… We’re in this for the long-term, and if we need to hold properties, we can. That’s one of our exit strategies if we have to.
So in other words, we’re prepared for something like that happening by nature of the assets that we’re investing in. And again, traditionally, multifamily assets in a recession perform very, very well. The default rate in that last recession was a tenth of what single-family was. It’s about 0.4% in the multifamily assets that defaulted. So very, very low default rate. Those assets perform well in recessions. Often there’s increased demand on rents and increased pressure on rents from people downsizing and downgrading into less expensive housing. So we feel really strongly; we’re not speculating, we’re not buying A-Class assets for appreciation purposes, which a lot of people are doing right now; we’re not playing ball in markets that are overpriced, and we still keep our finger on the pulse of Utah, but unless something exceptional comes up, we’re not buyers here.
Ash Patel: A lot of great points there. Now that you’ve gotten some larger unit count properties, would you still purchase a 20-30 unit property?
Tate Siemer: That is an awesome question. And I would say yes. But here’s the qualification – it’s got to be in one of our markets that we’re already in.
Ash Patel: Is that something you’ll leverage your property management company?
Tate Siemer: Yeah, exactly. Leverage our infrastructure in those markets to properly manage and essentially be able to keep our business plan going, and keeping our word to our investors, and everything else. We just closed on a 51 unit, which is smaller than what we look for, but it’s literally right next door to a 60 unit that our property management company owns themselves. So they’re going to be co-managed properties, and they’ll be co-disposed of; when we go to sell, we’ll sell the properties together as a portfolio. So there were compelling reasons to do that project outside of the unit count, and it penciled very, very well. Same thing with our 60 unit in Columbus that we’re working on right now; it pencils really well, and it’s really close to 70 other units that we own.
Ash Patel: Alright, so here’s another question, Tate. If you found a great deal on a 20-30 unit, in a market where you’re already at, would you take it down yourself or would you still syndicate it?
Tate Siemer: Great question. I would say, we would opt to take it down ourselves, if we could. Typically, the amount of capital needed for a project like that is obviously less than 150 units or 250 units. So bringing in multiple investors may or may not be necessary.
The other thing that we’ve done on projects that small, is just brought in one capital partner as a joint venture partner. So it’s, again, not technically a syndication, but that’s one way of creating a win for the capital partner and for us and everything else. So yeah, that can work.
Ash Patel: Yeah, that’s interesting. It’s one of those dilemmas where you could syndicate it and get a great return for a number of investors, and maybe get their feet wet for future investments. But at the same time, if it’s a great return, it’s hard to pass that up.
Tate Siemer: Yeah.
Ash Patel: How do you find these deals right now? Because you’re in the Midwest, you’re in the West Coast… How do you source deals?
Tate Siemer: We’ve got a great relationship with a brokerage in Denver that has a strong presence in Oklahoma City, and they’re players in Oklahoma City themselves; they both own and manage many properties in Oklahoma City. Their property management arm has about 28 communities that they manage there. So they are fantastic at finding deals for us, and they will occasionally pick up a deal themselves, but they’re not set up to buy everything they find. So we are basically almost partners with them in a way at this point, because they’re bringing us deals, they’re helping us underwrite them, and do all the due diligence items that are necessary, and then they’re managing for us. So it’s a wonderful relationship. And then in Columbus, we have a couple of great broker relationships as well. Everything we’re doing right now, except for one property, was off-market.
Ash Patel: So there were pocket listings that the broker brought to you.
Tate Siemer: Exactly, yeah.
Ash Patel: Yeah. Tate, when you look at underwriting these deals, is there something high level that you look at first? Is it cap rate, cash on cash returns, under-market rents? What is it that allows you to either next the deal or pursue it?
Tate Siemer: I’d say there’s two basic metrics that I look at real quickly. One is just your unit net price, and because we know these markets really well, and we work in them all the time, we know that, say, in Oklahoma City, a Class C asset at $50,000 a unit is something that’s going to work pretty well for us, all other things given that are okay, right? And then the other thing we’ll look at is the operating cap rate. So given current financials and current operations, what does that cap rate look like against our purchase price? That’s going to tell us basically whether or not it’s going to cash flow and break-even and be something that we can make pencil. If we’re looking at something that’s at least a 6.5 cap, we know that that’s going to probably work, and we’ll dig in pretty hard on that deal.
Ash Patel: What are your current pain points in your business right now?
Tate Siemer: In any syndicator’s business, it’s deal flow and capital flow. Those are your two big things. And then the third aspect of your operations is your operations; your asset management, running the properties that you own. I don’t know that we have any pain points per se, but I would say we’re finding more deals than capital right now, but we always end up closing on our deals. So at the end of the day, we’re finding what we need, but our capital raising game is maybe a little bit lagging behind our deal-finding game, if that makes sense. We really set up our systems and processes early in the business for finding deals. And as we’ve found them, we’ve upped our capital raising game and put our landing page in place with all the infrastructure that’s needed to build your email list and everything else. And we’re doing very well with that, but it’s a newer part of our business. So it’s definitely always under development and renovation and everything else. So I would say capital raising is probably where we’re spending the most time.
Ash Patel: Yeah.
Ash Patel: In addition to doing podcasts like this, what else are you doing to drive people to your website?
Tate Siemer: I have a podcast myself, called The Apartment Guys. It gets a lot of listener base, which is fantastic. I feel very blessed. I’ve had that for about a year and a half, and have done well with that. We have social media engagement, LinkedIn. We have a monthly meetup group that meets on the third Wednesday of every month called the Salt Lake City Multifamily Meetup, which can be found on meetup.com. And we meet a lot of people through that; partners, investors, co-GP, even like capital raisers… So those are really what we’re using to drive traffic.
Ash Patel: And are you the frontman or are your partners equally out there, trying to promote?
Tate Siemer: Yeah, I’d say I’m the frontman, but we’re all raising capital all the time. Chelsea Garber is one of my partners, and she’s really our point of contact in Oklahoma City with our broker there. So she’s kind of the face of the company in that market. I’m always helping her and backing her up and getting her what she needs and everything. And then I really work the Columbus market myself pretty hard. We do a fundraising webinar, I’m usually the one facilitating it. And I was the visionary behind the company; created the brand, created the vision, created the goals with my partner, co-created those… My partner, Carl, is just a fantastic tactician, really great at picking up what needs to be done, and getting it done and developing systems and processes around our fundraising platform, and attorney relationships. There’s a lot to this.
Ash Patel: Yeah, it sounds like you’ve put together an incredible team.
Tate Siemer: Yeah, we’ve got a good team, a good crew, for sure.
Ash Patel: That’s great. Tate, if we can circle back to the land entitlements, can we dig into that just for a second?
Tate Siemer: Sure.
Ash Patel: If I recall correctly, you were purchasing land and changing zoning and then selling it?
Tate Siemer: We actually never changed zoning. And the reason for that is because that’s never a guarantee. Unless you know the city real well, and you know the people at the city real well, and you know what their master plan is, you know what they’re looking for, and you have some good guidance that they would welcome a zoning change – unless you’ve got that in place, buying a property that’s contingent either on a zone change or buying the property outright and counting on getting a zone change after you buy it, can be a little bit risky, because it’s not a guaranteed thing.
Now, getting a property that’s zoned multifamily, but doesn’t have, let’s say, a plan for multifamily there, and you go and you read the code and you find out, “We’ve got an acre and a half here, we can put 20 units on it, 20 townhome units. Let’s get an architect to draw that out for us. Let’s get that plan approved by the city, so that somebody can come right in, break ground and start digging and building” – that’s what we did. We bought the property, kept the current zoning, but used the current zoning to get the land properly entitled for a project so that somebody could just plow forward with it.
Ash Patel: And did you always buy the property, or did you have options on it at times?
Tate Siemer: We had options, more often when we were buying the property. We did do one project that we had to rezone. We had two lots, it was a four-lot project that we were assembling for I think about 30 townhomes. And we had two lots that were zoned properly and two that needed to be rezoned, and were part of the master plan of that community to be rezoned… So it was kind of a slam dunk, and we went ahead and just bought the property and had it entitled and sold it to a developer and did pretty well on it.
Ash Patel: And this seems like it’s pretty lucrative. Do you still pursue land deals?
Tate Siemer: We don’t look hard for them. We’re known in the city as people that can do these, so people do bring projects to us once in a while. Commercial multifamily is really what GreenLight’s about. And we know that’s our future. The advantages of multifamily — I know, Ash, you talk about this all the time, but the capability of wealth creation that this asset class offers is unparalleled, and then ongoing cash flow too, right? Like, passive residual cash flow if you’re a passive investor, the prospect of really nice returns on an investment. There’s so many great advantages; tax advantages, risk mitigation – we can talk about any of those things at length, but there’s just so many compelling reasons to be in apartments. When our eyes were open to that two years ago, 2.5 years ago, we kind of haven’t looked back, we haven’t really been looking for anything else.
Ash Patel: So, Tate, what is your best real estate investing advice ever.
Tate Siemer: My best real estate investing advice ever would be — this is one you’ve heard before, but find a partner. You hear, “find a mentor a lot”, but find a partner that you can do a deal with; somebody that can sponsor a deal, somebody that can capitalize a deal, somebody that has a resume or experience in the industry… Go find a partner.
The best thing we ever did as a team, Carl and I, was bring in our third partner in Tim Watcke. He has been wonderful, and we brought him in just as an expert on one of our deals. We just wanted him on the team. He didn’t bring anything to the table—yeah, actually, he ended up bringing his money to the table and got a little more of GP for that. But originally, we were just inviting him to be on the team, period. I think it was 5% just to be an advisor, and he put us a couple years ahead of where we otherwise would have been if we were just doing it on our own. So I love bringing in an experienced partner that knows what they’re doing; it’s going to put you so far ahead.
Ash Patel: That is great advice. Tate, are you ready for the lightning round?
Tate Siemer: Yes, sir. You bet.
Ash Patel: Let’s do it. Tate, what’s the best ever book you’ve recently read?
Tate Siemer: Best ever book, I just got done reading this, it’s called The Uncivilized Man. And I think it’s a must-read for any of us dudes, that want to live a large life, and go big in all the areas of our life, and have a lot of excitement, a lot of success in those parts of our lives. So The Uncivilized Man. Traver Boehm is the author.
Ash Patel: What was your biggest takeaway from that book?
Tate Siemer: This is getting a little outside of real estate, but the importance of dealing with your stuff, dealing with anything that’s causing you hangups, whether that’s pain from past experiences in life or unresolved issues in relationships or whatever that is – getting it all out, getting everything out and dealing with it, so that you can be at peace, you can be whole, you can be grounded and successful and moving forward. Getting unstuck is a big theme of that book, and I love that.
Ash Patel: Yeah. Tate, what’s the best ever way you like to give back?
Tate Siemer: Well, I love, love, love helping people in this industry; people that contact me through the podcast or through the meetup group that—I have a calendly link that people can book appointments with me any time; 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 60 minutes, whatever you need, I’m here to help. I don’t ask for anything in return. And I just like helping people that are maybe just a step or two behind where we are, and just need a little advice here or a little nudge there, or a resource recommendation. I really love helping people inside of this industry. So right now, that’s my focus. I give to a few charities as well, some Christian outreach groups that build orphanages around the planet. That’s kind of my gig.
Ash Patel: Yeah, I love your attitude. Just the fact that you love giving back advice to people that are coming up is incredible. Tate, how can the Best Ever listeners reach out to you?
Tate Siemer: Www.investwithgreenlight.com is our web address. Www.investwithgreenlight.com. You can find links to my podcast, you can find ways to reach me via email, phone, etc. Please, please, please reach out guys. Obviously, you’re listening to this stuff and you’re immersed in this stuff… Take the next step and reach out to Ash’s group, to my group… We’re here to help. That’s why we’re here.
Ash Patel: Yeah. Tate, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing your story; you started out as a ski bum moving out West and I bet nobody, including you, thought you were going to be where you are at today. So thank you for sharing how you got to where you are and giving us your time today.
Tate Siemer: My pleasure. It was great. I really enjoyed it, Ash.
Ash Patel: Yeah. Best Ever listeners, thank you for joining us as always. Have a best ever day.
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