JF2560: Reliable Passive Income vs. Appreciation with Joe DiSanto
Former owner of post-production companies, Joe DiSanto, switched over to real estate investing and is now semi-retired in his 40s. Joe is talking about the pitfalls of renovating a commercial space, why it’s still one of the best investments he’s ever made, and his recommendations for when to choose riskier investments vs. when to play it safe.
Joe DiSanto Real Estate Background:
- Currently works PT as a fractional CFO for 6 companies and 1 family office
- Portfolio consists of 11 residential rentals, 2 commercial buildings, and 1 piece of raw land. He has also done 6 major renovations, two of which were complete development/change-of-use projects.
- Based in Florida
- Say hi to him at: https://www.playlouder.com/
- Best Ever Book: The Lost Science of Compound Interest
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Ash Patel: Hello, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show. I’m Ash Patel, and I’m with today’s guest, Joe DiSanto. Joe is joining us from Providence, Rhode Island. He is currently working part-time as a fractional CFO for six companies and one family office. Joe’s portfolio consists of 11 residential units and two commercial units, as well as raw land. He has also done development and change-of-use projects. Joe, thank you for joining us. And how are you today?
Joe DiSanto: Absolutely, man. Thanks for having me, Ash. I am doing awesome.
Ash Patel: Great. Joe, before we get started, can you tell us a little bit more about your background and what you’re focused on now?
Joe DiSanto: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I’ll start with a little correction on your intro. I’m from Providence, Rhode Island originally, but I currently live in Florida.
Ash Patel: Okay.
Joe DiSanto: And technically, right now, I am in Grand Rapids, Michigan; that’s a seven-week road trip from Florida up to Michigan [unintelligible [00:01:52].06] my in-laws.
Ash Patel: Awesome.
Joe DiSanto: And prior to Florida, I lived in Los Angeles [unintelligible [00:01:56].25] for most of my career kind of unfolded. And good segue right there into getting in a little bit of my background… So when I go on shows, I kind of liken myself more to the listener almost, than someone who’s pitching a syndication deal, or something like that. I’ve just been a person that was always interested in personal finance, always interested in real estate and always interested in business… And early in my career, I knew that eventually I wanted to own my own business. So that was one of my goals. And I also wanted to own real estate. And this is my early 20’s, and I think I wanted to do this things for the obvious reasons… But like many of your audience members probably that are younger, it’s like, you know that these are good ideas, but you’re young, so you’re just kind of like going off instinct, and also what you’re learning from other people that are older than you that seemed to be successful at things that they did.
So I set out to try to accomplish those two goals, and wherever I could cross those two efforts over, I would try to and I was successful doing that. And i.e. what that means is my first real estate investment, I did consider the home that I bought for myself. It’s like a two for one. It’s like, I’m going to be renting anyway, but I might as well own the real estate investment that I occupy.
Of course, after that I moved on to buy actual, just straight up residential rental investments and so on. But also for our business, I did eventually start a business when I was 30… And as we were growing and getting bigger spaces and spending more money on buildouts and things like that, I was like, “Well, hey, we’re spending lots of money on rent here. There must be some way for us to capitalize on that rent we’re spending and turn it into a real estate investment. Why wouldn’t we?” And there came in the commercial property investments that you’ve mentioned in the open, and essentially, we bought a couple of buildings in Los Angeles for the businesses; not at the same time, sequentially. So we did one, made a good chunk of money, and then traded up and did another. But those projects were pretty significant for me, in that — well, one, I didn’t know much about commercial when I set out on the first one. But they were full-on change-of-use sort of development projects. And the reason I call them development primarily is because we actually had to risk money before we knew the full viability of the project. So we had to get into escrow, we had to get a long enough escrow where we could get all the things that we wanted to do with the city, get more architectural work done, certainly go past the point in escrow where we had hard money, and solve all these problems that often were in conflict with each other. And for anyone who’s developed commercial real estate – they probably know what I’m talking about… And spend a bunch of money, like I said, without really knowing whether or not we could actually get our goal out of that particular property.
Luckily, in both cases, we were able to, but it was definitely challenging. And in my case, I’d just really just done residential rentals and residential renovations, so the scale was bigger for me, but the degree to which I was dealing with the city and dealing with architects and doing all that stuff, and dealing with the transportation department and providing a study for them that would show how much traffic we were going to bring to the neighborhood… Every time something like that, got thrown at me, I’m like, “What? What do want me to do now?!”
Ash Patel: Joe, let’s back up a little bit…
Joe DiSanto: Yeah.
Ash Patel: What was this business that you started?
Joe DiSanto: Oh, sure, I skipped that part. So my business was post-production and production. So—
Ash Patel: For the film industry?
Joe DiSanto: Yeah, the film, television and advertising industries; those are the main industries that we serviced. So for those of you who don’t know what post-production is – when you go watch a TV show or whatever, on Netflix, when they go and shoot the material, get it in the can, so to speak, that’s production. And then after that part — now it’s a drive, but it used to be film and videotapes… That gets sent to the post-production company, and we do the editing, we put the show together, we do visual effects, color correction, sound design, sound editing… The whole kit and caboodle. And then we deliver the project to, whether it be the network or the advertising agency studio, or wherever it needs to go.
I was actually a photography major in college and found post-production, and it’s kind of — I’m a math and art guy, because I did all the business side of our business amongst all the investing in real estate stuff… So post-production is a good combination of an art form, but it’s a technical art form. So it involves a lot of technology, but it’s also very creative.
Ash Patel: Okay, so when it came time to find a space or outgrow your current space, you chose to find — what type of building was this?
Joe DiSanto: In both cases, they were essentially what was permitted as warehouse space. So I’m talking super raw… The first one was an electrical supply warehouse and distribution center. So it was just like a thin metal shed, essentially; it was built in the 40s, kind of a cool building… And it was just piled from floor to ceiling with light parts, basically. So when they cleared it out of there, it was just completely empty open space. So that was the first—
Ash Patel: Do you remember the first price on that?
Joe DiSanto: Yeah, the purchase price on that was — I wanna say $3.4 million, the first one.
Ash Patel: And what year was that? Do you know?
Joe DiSanto: This was interesting, exciting and also challenging… We closed on the building in March of 2008, and Lehman Brothers did our loan. And that basically is the perfect metaphor for the time period I was about to enter… Going into building out a new commercial building you just closed on, right into the Great Recession, financial crisis, and our bridge lender that was going to be financing our construction also went out of business two weeks before we closed.
So pretty much I had to close on the building without any actual construction financing in hand, and I had to figure out on the fly how to reduce my scope to the degree that I could get my business up and running and also get it through the city, and then also figure out how I was going to pay for it.
And my first stop on that journey was the seller. I actually went to the seller and was just, “Listen, we all know something’s going on out there. My construction financing just fell through. So you can give me a loan and help me get this thing closed, or you can go put it back on the market right now, as we’re entering in a total tornado of real estate disaster.”
So he reluctantly did fork over my initial construction funds, and I got him paid back on time, in about a three-year time period, and I paid him 10%. But that at least got my construction kicked off, and then while I was moving along, I was trying to solve my financing problems as I went. And I managed to do it somehow. I don’t know, looking back, I’m not really sure how.
And then the extra kicker was that our general contractor also went out of business during the process of this buildout, and pretty much misappropriated about $75,000 of money I had given them, and he had not paid subcontractors, because all his new work dried up, and he obviously wasn’t paying for the jobs he was getting money for in silos. So eventually, my subs stopped working and I was like, “What’s going on?” They’re like, “We haven’t been paid.” I’m like, “What are you talking about? I paid the contractor, I’ll show you.” And he’s like, “Well, he hasn’t paid us.”
And then eventually they called me and they were like, “Yeah, we’re going BK. Sorry, you’re going to be on your own here on out.” So I actually hired some of their laid off employees to come and just work full-time on the job site. I became the super. I forked over the money I needed to fork over to get the subs back in action, and we got it done.
Ash Patel: And what was the price tag of that renovation?
Joe DiSanto: The initial price tag, I think, was about 450k. And then once we were in there — we didn’t get to do all the things we wanted to do… But once we’re in there, and our business survived, luckily, and everyone started turning the corner, we continued to do our initial set of plans, and built out a mezzanine floor and added more square footage and eventually got it kind of to where it needed to be. And then once that was done, maybe a few years later, we were like, “We need more parking, we need a little bit more space.” The market really had rebounded, and it was about eight years after we bought it; the market had rebounded, and we had it pretty much in the shape we wanted probably for a good three years or so at that point. But we decided, well, we needed some more space; a good problem to have, I guess. And we also wanted more parking; we didn’t have a lot of parking on that particular property. So we sold it, we leased it back for a couple of years, and I would have loved to have done a 1031 exchange, that would have been ideal, but finding an ideal property in that short of time is just impossible in Los Angeles. So we eventually found one and we embarked on the next renovation, which I did up pretty much all of 2017.
Ash Patel: You sold that property and leased it back for a couple of years. Why not just hang on to it until you found your next property?
Joe DiSanto: Well, it’s just really hard to work out the timing; it’s like getting one out of a building that you own, and getting the sale done, and making sure it closes, because there’s just a lot of variables there, particularly in LA with environmental inspections, you never know how that’s going to go; deals do also live and die by parking there… So someone who’s buying and has a particular plan and then they learn that they can’t see their plan to fruition because there isn’t enough parking or whatever – you know, deals can die that way.
So trying to time that and have that all work out, while picking up a new building, getting that all to work out, and then not having so much time of caring both buildings, while also trying to run my business and have it all work, is just a lot to work out. So the financial aspect of it wasn’t the most ideal; it’d be better to just get the sale off our back and then — the person that bought it from us was eventually happy we left, because [unintelligible [00:13:49].26] and all that. So we have a two-year lease with a couple year options to renew. So I set myself up with enough time to find a building and then enough time to renovate, and then also to have some backup renewals… Because inevitably, this whole process is just full of trap doors and variables and it’s hard to control.
Ash Patel: And Joe, what was that final sale price?
Joe DiSanto: It was about $4.8 million, I believe.
Ash Patel: Okay.
Joe DiSanto: Yeah.
Ash Patel: So you came out a million dollars ahead of what you had into it.
Joe DiSanto: Yeah. You can look at it a couple of ways. In my case, the way I looked at it was – the renovation dollars, they were going to be spent by our business period, whether we bought a building or not, because we needed to get a new space, and you’ve got to renovate your own space in commercial, and you’ve got to make it what you need. So that money was really spent by the business.
So I look at the building really as the performance on the building was the conversion to — maybe you can include the conversion to the office, but really the purchase and the sale, because we would have never avoided the renovation anyway. So even with the renovation, it was a win. But when you consider that that renovation money would have been spent anyway, but it’s just would have been spent on a building somebody else owned, then it’s even a greater win, really.
Ash Patel: So I’m in Cincinnati and I try to avoid doing development or large renovations in the city limits. And Cincinnati can’t be anywhere near as bad as LA. So what were some of the hair-raising things that you went through in dealing with the city?
Joe DiSanto: Yeah. Well, it’s not even just the city, it’s just all around. But the big nail biters are waiting on the city to get your plans through some version of approval, and that just takes a long time. Theoretically, there’s [unintelligible [00:15:33].13] Maybe the big developers can, I couldn’t really find anyone that would commit to actually getting it done sooner.
So there’s just that timeline, and you’re in this window with your escrow where you’re like, “Well, I want to buy this place. I don’t want to lose it.” Some of my deposit is going to go hard at some point, so that thing is going to be committed. I’ve got to pay an architect to get a reasonable set of somewhat approvable plans… And I have to wait and kind of hope that the city is going to at least get back to me with a round or two of changes, and give me a verbal on the viability. You’ll never get a ready-to-issue set of plans by the time you close; there’s just not enough time, unless you can do a 9-12 month’s escrow. Just that process is nail-biting.
The city – it just throws a lot of potential things that you, depending on what comes up in your plan check. The transportation study is a perfect example of that. It’s like, I’m close to [unintelligible [00:16:24].12] and I’m wanting to get my construction started. The clock is ticking on how much money I can afford to spend carrying both buildings, this, that and the other… And then all of a sudden, they’re like, “Oh, yeah, by the way, we can’t approve the plans until you do a transportation study.” I’m like, “Well, what is a transportation study?”, number one. And my architect’s there too, you know, so they’re helping me sort of decipher some of this… But basically what they wanted to do – you have to hire a consultant, civil engineer, and they basically have to determine, based on the amount of people you tell the city that is going to be occupying the building, both from a full-time staff point of view and from a visiting point of view, how many extra cars that, that is going to roll through the stop signs and the traffic lights around the building during rush hour?
And if they decide at the end of that study that maybe it’s enough cars where we need to widen the street or do something or add additional signage or who knows what – you’re at their discretion, at what they decide. They might think your extra traffic will bring to bear, you will then have to pay for those improvements for the city, on the city’s behalf. So that’s just a perfect example of something that as an individual investor person, I just wasn’t aware of. I mean, I’d never ran into that before.
And you’d be surprised what architects and staff don’t bother to mention, because why? Maybe they’ve never actually had that come up before. Maybe they just forgot, because they’re busy. You never know, I’m always surprised at the things that professionals don’t somehow remember to tell you well far in advance of when they should have.
But that cost me 6,500 bucks, to do the study. It took six weeks to get the study done. So it pretty much derailed my construction for two months. I even called my council member to try to put some pressure under this department at the city. They had the report in two weeks’ time; it just sat on someone’s desk. I was going down there, and luckily in the end, they gave me the green light without having to spend any extra money, because I was bringing 40 full-time employees to a major intersection in Culver City, California. I just don’t think it’s going to bring that many more cars, but it had to be done.
Ash Patel: You know, Joe, in my experience, if you can get an old school architect, somebody that’s been around the city for so many years, knows everybody; or if you can have somebody in the planning commission recommend an architect – that goes such a long way. I’ve seen these guys pull off miracles, just because they’ve worked with the city so many times, they’re drinking buddies, they’re poker players or whatever. But I’ve seen them work some incredible timelines and approvals, and that’s always a key factor.
Joe DiSanto: My architect did pull off one really good thing for me… This is another good variable. We do all our MEP and everything, and we figure out what our electrical load is going to be for the building… And it was pretty much deemed that we needed new electrical service; that’s just like the kiss of death for a construction timeline, because you’re either dealing with LA DWP or SoCal Edison.
And now all of a sudden, you’ve got to hop over to their system, they have to come out, they have to do a whole study and a set of plans to deliver you your new electrical service. And then they sort of have little control over what they’re going to give you, and they really want to put like a 1,200 amp transformer or whatever on my parking lot. And they gave me credit to put it on my parking lot, but I didn’t have a choice, because they wanted to be able to tap other customers into this new service point. So they paid for a portion of the transformer and the work to be done, but it had to go in my parking lot.
Well, I was trying to maximize the amount of additional square footage through the installation of steel mezzanines in the building, to maximize the value of the product from a development point of view… But for every 1000 square feet, I wanted to add, I had to add two parking spaces. So that transformer took up two parking spaces, and also messed up the travel route through the lot, which even took up more spaces.
So by SoCal Edison coming in and telling me I had to do this, all of a sudden I was looking at losing 1,500-2,000 feet off my development. And at 1,000 bucks a foot of finished commercial real estate in LA, that’s worth a lot of money. So that was a variable that we had all of a sudden solved out of nowhere, even though the parking lot prior to SoCal Edison finally showing up with their plans was approved as is.
We ended up putting in nine hydraulic car stackers in order to maximize the parking and maximize the mezzanine space we could add. So we ended up adding about 4,000 square feet of steel mezzanine, and that really made that project worth doing. We were on the fence about even doing something for a little while, because we couldn’t find a place. But when we found that place, it was a long time before we actually were in escrow on it. But if we can add that mezzanine space to that place, that is going to be really worth doing this level of project and this level of risk and this level of headache and intensity for me… But we got it across the finish line and basically created about $3 million of equity right out of the gate.
Ash Patel: So, Joe, after all of those trials and tribulations and wins, what’s your best real estate investing advice ever?
Joe DiSanto: Well, I’m in this interesting state… Back to my background, I luckily did well with my business and I’ve always been into investing, and real estate has been good to me, luckily. I really like real estate; it’s simple in my opinion. It’s a great, simple business. It’s a structure, [unintelligible [00:25:04].22] plumbing, heating, whatever.
The stock market to me is like this mystery. I don’t know what really is going on with any of the companies I put money in. But I know real estate. So it’s been good, and it allowed me, after my son was born, when I wanted to work less and have more family time, I was able to cash out of my businesses and threw my cash flow from that latter, commercial building and other residential rentals go down to a part-time working situation, and kind of be what I like to call semi-retired.
But the point of me saying that is as I’ve grown and been in different parts of my life, different kinds of real estate, I think, have shown more or less value to me. And in my younger years, single-family rentals were good. It was something that I could get into from a financial point of view, because the down payments were achievable, and I could scale it to some degree, particularly with turnkey stuff.
But the cash flow on single-family rentals for me has never been awesome. [unintelligible [00:26:05].13] storytelling bits about all this crazy cash flow and single-family rentals, I’ve owned, I think, 11 now over the years in four different markets, and none of them have been cashflow cows. Granted, I wasn’t in a position where I lived in a market where I could find dilapidated houses, fix them up myself, manage them myself, and really have a cash flow scenario.
But from an appreciation point of view, they have all been great. And cashflow – sometimes it’s positive; it’s not like the worst, but it’s just a hit or miss. But now that I’m in more of this really wanting more reliable passive income and cash flow, and not so much focus on appreciation, I’m really seeing the value of the triple net commercial.
I think for the most part, you’re not going to probably see as much potential appreciation, because appreciation isn’t emotional in commercial real estate. It’s based on cap rate, it’s based on rental income and projected rental income. Certainly, there’s value-add projects that can produce cash flow and appreciation in the long run. But I’ve been trying to find deals that really can maximize cash flow as much and forego a little bit of the long-term IRR. And I think you can get that in triple net commercial, because the tenant is responsible for all the fixes and improvements to property tax, everything. As long as you can keep that tenant in place and if you can get something that’s an A-rated tenant from a credit point of view, you’re going to have the most luck in maintaining your cash flow, I think.
Ash Patel: What kind of cash-on-cash returns are you looking at?
Joe DiSanto: Well, I’m looking at this through syndications, really, because I’m not going to fork over the money at this stage of my life to do a commercial development myself… But on my own property, we’re doing well; we’re doing 10% really. But my old business is the tenant; it’s a good tenant [unintelligible [00:27:54].14] triple net.
But in seeking out the syndication landscape, I’m seeing some deals that are anywhere between 8% up to 12%, potentially. And the profiles on the deals are pretty good. Most of it is triple net commercial, maybe retail, maybe medical office, or even flex use, warehouse/flex use stuff. And the places that are getting that kind of cash flow, they’re looking for deals that really sell on cash flow specifically, and they probably don’t have any value add opportunity or long-term appreciation, but the hope is they’re going to be steady. And like with something like medical office, for example, that is something that’s very COVID proof. There’s another wave of COVID; doctors or essential workers and most doctors offices are going to continue to operate.
So you’re always weighing the risk with your money. And I’ll tell you, it’s like, when you’re young and you don’t have much money, taking risk is super easy. You’re like, “Whatever, I don’t have much money. If I lose it, I’m not that much worse off.” Well, once you get to a place where you actually have a bunch of money in the bank, and you’re looking to actually have that money continue to work for you through retirement and keep you in a nice lifestyle, you all of a sudden don’t really want to put it at great risk. You want to hold on to it. You want to keep it working and producing income for you in a safe way, but also still needing a good return. So—
Ash Patel: So why not look at multifamily, versus retail medical, single-tenant type buildings?
Joe DiSanto: Well, the truth is, I have a little bit more familiarity with commercial, because I’ve done a couple projects and I’ve gone through the process of that and understand it a little bit better. When I think about residential multifamily, I’m sure it could be perfectly great. And I think there probably could be more value-add opportunity there for better IRR.
Where my experience sort of relates to that is the cash flow is hit or miss, because you’re dealing with – at least in the case of the single-family houses, things come up. Even if you get a good tenant, things break; things happen and your cash flow can get unwound. You can have a good year, and then — just the other day, I get a call from my tenant and their air conditioning stopped working. I’m like, “Alright, it’s probably no big deal.” My air guy goes out there, [unintelligible [00:30:07].29] I can replace the compressor for 2,400 bucks or the whole condenser for $2,800. I’m like, “What about warranty?” He’s like, “You’re on year six, and because it was a change of ownership and during the initial 10-year warranty, it matches down to five years.”
Ash Patel: I’ve got to tell you, I’ve done a lot of commercial investing for myself – retail, medical, warehouse, office, industrial… And when it comes to risk, that’s a much higher risk than one of Ashcroft’s 300-unit apartment buildings. So I put my safe money in multifamily syndications, my risky money I put in commercial.
Joe DiSanto: Okay.
Ash Patel: Because my perspective on that is there’s 300 units. And every year, so many AC units are going to go out, you’re going to have x number of appliances, have problems, and there’s the value-add upside. With commercial, you look at, during the pandemic, even though Starbucks was very, very profitable, they sent letters to all their landlords letting them know, “Hey, you’re going to have to work with us.” If you look at somebody like Cheesecake Factory, they sent all of their landlords letters saying, “Hey, we’re not going to be able to pay for a while.” So when people think triple net, they think, “There’s no way out of it.” And historically, that’s not always the case, right? My opinion is the multifamily for safe syndications is the way to go.
Joe DiSanto: Okay.
Ash Patel: The single tenant triple net properties, things can go wrong.
Joe DiSanto: Yeah, in the single-tenant, triple net commercial, certainly things can go wrong. And if you’re dealing with something like a Walgreens – well, you could be stuck with a building that really only suits a Walgreens—
Ash Patel: Yeah.
Joe DiSanto: —and you can’t get out of something like that. So to your point, again, like I was saying to you, what I do now is I’m a fractional CFO for businesses that were much like mine, many of them are creative. So that’s my work. But I also just work with individuals, oftentimes, the owners of these businesses to shore up their personal finances, keep more of their money. I don’t give investing advice, but I give suggestions that they should investigate for themselves and see what works for their comfort level.
So I’m much like a user of your podcast almost, in that I’m always learning and I’m currently seeking out different types of real estate ventures that I think might be better for my money now that I want more cash flow. And listening to you is educational to me. At the same time, to the point that many commercial tenants called their landlords and said, “You’ve got to work with me,” there’s no shortage of individual tenants that basically haven’t paid their rent for over a year under the eviction moratorium, and you just basically are shit out of luck. There’s nothing you can do and they’re not paying anything. I’ve been very lucky, I didn’t have that problem. And now we’re at the end of the moratorium, but I know plenty of people that did, you know…
Ash Patel: Yeah, that’s a great point. Joe, are you ready for the lightning round?
Joe DiSanto: I am.
Ash Patel: Let’s do it. Joe, what’s the best ever book you recently read?
Joe DiSanto: Well, I have to say, I’m reading this book right now called The Lost Science of Compound Interest. And I’ll be perfectly honest with you, it’s a book intended to explain and sell a product; I won’t mention the product, I’m not affiliated with it. But it’s an investment product, essentially, an investment philosophy and product. And it’s incredibly fascinating, this product, and sort of the rules of engagement around it and the aspects of this investment approach. And I have to say, I’m vetting now this investment approach with both the creator of it and also the fiduciaries involved that would be the custodians of your funds and all that sort of stuff. So it’s something that I’m looking at, in addition to real estate, as a possible investment of my funds.
But it’s a really good book, in general, not just about the product, but about the way we are all taught to invest and the shortcomings of it, which I was very much aware of being the kind of person I am, but I didn’t ever really see any kind of alternative to what was available, and this could be that alternative. So it’s very fascinating.
Ash Patel: Good point. Joe, what’s the best ever way you like to give back?
Joe DiSanto: I like to help young people. When I owned my businesses, we had a lot of employees; I’ve probably employed a sum total of over 100 people and cycled through many, many interns and mentored a lot of young people, and I was always astounded by the lack of financial education and interest that young people have. I don’t know why it is, that’s a whole nother show, but I would make a point to try to explain why they really need to pay attention to personal finances and learn about investing, and that this problem of their long-term comfort and retirement, whatever you want to call it, the kids like to call it financial independence today – it is not a problem that will solve itself. So I would give them all the books that I’ve read, I’d give them all my spreadsheets… Anything. I would always be there for them to answer questions, look at real estate for them. I’ve analyzed lots of stuff for them. I’ve taught them how to do that themselves. So that’s probably the primary way that I give back.
Ash Patel: That’s great. Joe, how can the Best Ever listeners reach out to you?
Joe DiSanto: My website is the best place, playlouder.com, or they can email me email@example.com. I’m making my living right now doing CFO work for businesses. But on my website, I just have all my knowledge, everything – research I’ve done, things that I’ve used that have worked for me. It’s all free information on my site.
I do also have a few paid courses on the topics of small business, personal finance and retirement planning and real estate investment analysis. I’ve a free version to those too, so if you want to go deep into that particular area, obviously I have a way you can do that. But you can get tons of great info, I think, off my site for free.
Ash Patel: That’s great. Joe, thank you for being on our show today and sharing your advice about some hairy commercial deals and dealing with the city of LA. Best Ever listeners, thank you for joining us, have a best ever day.
Joe DiSanto: Thanks, guys. Bye listeners.
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