JF2393: How To Turn 6 Months Of No Business Into A Winning Streak With Anthony Mann
Anthony got started in real estate straight out of school. His parents were in business for over 40 years, so it was a natural progression.
Anthony got his license in June 2007. First, several months of his career were great. But once the market crashed, he didn’t have a single listing for 6 months. He took that time to build relationships and rapport with people who could help him with his work. The first property he sold gave him a chance to look at the investor side of the real estate world, and Anthony was hooked.
Anthony Mann Real Estate Background:
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“I gave up a little bit of income in the short term to be guaranteed income for the rest of my life” – Anthony Mann.
Ash Patel: Hello, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to The Best Real Estate Investing Advice Ever Show. I’m Ash Patel, and I’m here with today’s guest, Anthony Mann. Anthony is joining us from Huntington, New York. He’s the CEO of Social Strategy and has 13 years of investing experience. Anthony, you’ve got a portfolio that consists of 200 flips, and you currently own 42 properties. Before we get started, tell us a little bit about your background and what you’re focused on now.
Anthony Mann: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me on the show today. I got started in the industry right out of school. My parents have been in the real estate business for over 40 years. My dad’s been an agent in the RE/MAX office for a long time. It was really a natural progression for me to get into the business. I went to school for econ, came out of school, got my license I guess in June of 2007… So I basically walked into the worst market ever. Those first couple of months were great, I sold a couple of houses, and I was totally hooked on a commission that I was making. Unfortunately, within 9 or 10 months, the whole world basically fell apart in 2008. There were vacancies everywhere, and people weren’t selling their homes, and people were underwater… And I realized that selling individual residential properties was just not going to do it for me. I actually happened to love the commercial side of real estate even more than I liked residential. So that was where my focus was. If anybody was around in 2008 in the market, you know that there were vacancies and people couldn’t sell their buildings. It was just a total mess in 2008. I quickly realized that selling individual properties, whether commercial or residential, was just not going to be a way for me to make any sort of money.
I got on the phones and I started calling every single – they’re called vendor managers, and they work at every major bank in the country, and other people who handled REO listings or foreclosure listenings. I spent six months literally calling and calling and calling and – I tell the story all the time… About six months go by, and I’m calling, I haven’t gotten a single listing, I haven’t made a sale, and I’m just on the phone. I called the same guy every day, I don’t mention his name ever, but he was the one who got me into the business. Basically, I called him every day between 12 and [12:15]. It was to a point where he’d be like, “Anthony, I don’t have anything for you today,” and he would just hang up on me. So it was like a running joke.
One day, he picked up the phone and he’s like, “Anthony, it’s your lucky day.” And I’m like, “Oh, my God, he’s about to give me a listing.” So he’s like, “Listen, I’m pissed at this agent.” It was another agent in my market, there are only about 15 guys who handle all the REOs in my market. He says “I’m going to give you 30 days to sell this listing. I’m taking it away from this guy. You’ve got 30 days.” I was like, “Listen, if I can’t sell it in 30 days I’ll buy it myself. Consider this thing sold.”
So in a typical agent fashion, a week later we would do an open house, and we got a couple of offers, and immediately the thing sells. That was my first foray into working with an investor and watching them purchase a house, rehab the house, and then flip that house, and I got the listing back. That got me into the investing side of the business. I was like, “Wow, there’s this whole other side of the business stuff I didn’t even know existed. I didn’t know that there was this much money that can exist on the side.” So fast forward about a year, in 2009 I did my first flip, it was about a year after that. That property we sold — I bought it, and it was sold literally after we bought it. I think 42 days later from the time we purchased, to rehab, to a new contract, the title being done to sale. It was about 42 days, and we made $193,000 on that flip. It was the coolest experience I’ve ever had. I thought making a 10 or $12,000 commission being an agent was cool, but when I saw almost 200 grand come in on a single flip, I was a whole other level of hooked on investing.
Ash Patel: So tell me more about that deal. What was the purchase price?
Anthony Mann: This deal was crazy. I had a few dollars in the bank, but I didn’t have a couple hundred thousand bucks. I was able to get by and pay my rent… So the purchase price of this property all said and done, including closing costs, was 525,000. All I had was the downpayment for that property, I think I put $5,000 down. Again, I’m 23 years old, it was all the money in the world to me. So I get into contract and I’m like, “Well, now I’ve got to go find the money.”
It took me a little bit, but I wound up finding a guy who literally walked into closing that day with a certified check for $525,000, and the rest is kind of history. He made a really nice interest rate on it. Obviously, I didn’t realize $193,000 – there were a lot of costs that went into that. But yeah, we wound up selling that property in about two weeks. We had very minor rehab on it; we did some paint, we changed the appliances out. The house was great, it was just really undervalued. Then someone gave us an offer for — I think it was like 740-ish thousand. Then they wound up doing the inspection and they wanted like 20-ish grand worth of interest on the credits, no problem. That property closed shortly after that. It was absolutely insane, the way the whole deal went down.
Ash Patel: Okay, so that’s an incredible win. You went from a mindset of six months of probably doubting yourself, wondering what you’re doing, being persistent nonetheless, and then you had this incredible win. What are your next steps? Because right now you’re on cloud nine. I mean, you’re loving life, things are good.
Anthony Mann: Yeah, so that’s what got me into the holding business. Now I had a real chunk of change in the bank, and I said, “Okay, I really don’t want to be taxed on this money, just give half of it away to the government. What can I do with it?” The first thing I did, and this is again, back in 2009 – I was on Zillow at the time, because that’s really where you could find properties in other areas. You could call an agent but there was no easy way to search online. So I found literally blocks of property, eight, ten properties per block in Detroit, Michigan, going for a $2,000 property. So I was like, “This could be cool. What if I can go get 10 to 20 properties, do some minor rehabs, and then Section 8 them back to the city of Detroit?” That’s what we did.
We bought blocks of property, we went in, we did very minor rehabs on them, made them up to code for Section 8, we approached the city of Detroit and we said, “Hey, listen. We have these properties. We’ve got them up to what you’re looking for. Can you send an inspector out there? We’d love to rent these to people as Section 8 properties.”
People get the time were like “You’re crazy. Don’t do section 8. You can make more money. Why would you ever do that?” I looked at them and I was like, “What am I going to make? An extra 100 bucks per property, a few hundred dollars per property?” We’re doing two things here – we’re helping people who don’t have homes, and we guarantee our income. I’m never worried about the city of Detroit paying their bills. They’ve never been late. On the 10th of the month the money’s in my account.
Fast-forward to 2020, it was interesting — I still own a lot of these properties, and it was interesting because a lot of my friends who were investors, their tenants stopped paying rent. “We can’t afford it. We lost our jobs.” On the 10th of every month, the city of Detroit deposits the money. It was one of those things where I almost gave up a little bit of income in the short term to have guaranteed income for the rest of my life. That’s basically what I did with that money and that’s propelled me into purchasing more and more and more properties across the country.
Ash Patel: Alright, I’ve got a lot of questions for you just based on that. Let’s back up a little bit… You purchased blocks of properties. How do you purchase a block of property?
Anthony Mann: Literally, that’s how they were being sold. There would be like 10 properties, $12,000. And I was like “Per property?” “No, no. 12k total.” I was like, “Okay, I’ll take it.”
Ash Patel: And you’re leveraging your experience calling these banks… What was the word for the bank person?
Anthony Mann: They were called vendor managers at the time. They have a very specific language that they speak. If you understand their language, they don’t mind having a conversation with you. The way we got through to that was, we were able to identify the properties we wanted, I was able to identify the bank, and then by this time, I was about a year and a half in the foreclosure business – I had contacts at every major bank in the country. So now I’m calling the person at that bank that I already have a relationship with, they answer the phone for me, and I’m like, “Hey, I’m interested in doing this.” They were like, “Hey, call John Smith at this desk, they’ll take care of you.” So I call that person, I’m like, “Hey, this person just referred me over to you, I’m looking to do this.” He’s like, “Sure, I’ll send you the list, I’ll send you the price out.” Literally, those deals got done in three or four days. It was the quickest thing you could ever imagine.
Ash Patel: You’re still in New York at this time, right? So all of this is being done remotely.
Anthony Mann: Completely remotely. To this day, I haven’t even seen every single one of those properties.
Ash Patel: Okay, I’m baffled here. Explain to me… By the way, it’s awesome that you leveraged those six months; you are actually building your database or building a rapport with all of these vendor managers. So explain to me the challenge in buying blocks of properties, getting them rehabbed, getting Section 8 tenants in there… I want to hear all about it.
Anthony Mann: Yeah. Really, what it came down to was my biggest concern, was what’s the rehab going to cost? Because we only had a certain amount per property that we were willing to do. Obviously Detroit, Michigan, and especially at that time, the rents are not $3,000 a month. The rents are $700 a property, they’re not huge rents. So granted, taxes are very low there; I think the taxes are $1100 a year or $1200 a year per property there. They are small taxes, but there’s not a huge amount of income per property, so we have to make sure that we don’t overspend on the rehab. That was my biggest concern.
I had inspectors go out, I want to make sure there are no foundation issues, the roof didn’t need to be replaced for the next two years… There were certain things that I was very cognizant about because I had experience in the REO side of the business and I looked at what my investors were concerned about; they became my concerns when I started purchasing my own property.
So I had inspectors out there, I had property management companies that basically handled the day-to-day. They hired their friends, family, people they knew that worked with contractors, and those people did the work. Again, this is 2009, when there’s a ton of people out of work. It’s very similar to 2020 we were just in, where there are millions and millions of people out of work and there’s a huge financial crisis. So I didn’t care who you’re hiring as long as they were insured and they were doing good work. I always said these got to be up to code, we have to get them approved by a Section 8 inspector…
So those rehabs took a couple of months and we did it property after property. We did one property, we had the inspector come in, we got it rented out. And the next property, and so on. So we did it one by one by one. It took months to do, but over time it was just clockwork. We knew what to expect, how long the rehabs are going to take, how long the inspections are going to take, what we can almost guarantee that the inspectors are going to say when they come in… We were just proactive about it. We developed a relationship even with the city of Detroit, because we knew what they wanted and what they expected.
Ash Patel: Anthony, who’s “we”?
Anthony Mann: I’d say “we” is my company. The people that I work with. So me as the owner of the company, my property managers, my inspectors, my real estate agents that work with me… When I say we, it’s the collective of all the people that basically make this happen.
Ash Patel: Okay, so you built a team to help you manage, acquire, and deal with all these properties. So what was your next step after that?
Anthony Mann: I was still selling real estate on Long Island. We were growing and growing like crazy. By 2010 we were selling 250 properties a year; we were a powerhouse on the REO side. But 2013 or 2014 was rolling around and I quickly realized that as a mid-20-year-old guy– I was 24 or 25 years old– I didn’t want to be telling people, walking up to their homes and telling them news they already knew. They haven’t paid their mortgages in two years, their sheriff is going to show up any day, and I can offer you $3,000 to move out in 30 days. It gets really old really quick and I said to myself, “The money is good, but I don’t want to do this for the next 40 years.” So I started looking at ways that I can get out of that side of the business. While we still do some business with certain banks, we certainly don’t do nearly the volume that we used to. So I got more into the investing side and I actually started a real estate tech company in 2014.
A really funny story – so I get a property that’s totally undervalued in Dix Hills, New York. If anybody knows what that is – a very nice area in New York. It was about $300,000 undervalued. And I do an open house. I used to do one-hour open houses, because I was like “People are either going to come or they’re not going to come.” This one — this is going to be a wild open house. We have 70 to 80 investors show up at this open house in an hour; there are people everywhere, people are signing in, and I, like an idiot, got this piece of paper that people are writing the name, phone number, and email address… An hour and a half goes by and everybody’s gone. I’m going down the expressway and I’m doing 70 miles an hour, the window is down… It was probably like May, I got the windows down, and no joke, these pieces of paper catch the wind and go flying out the window… Like, gone. And I’m doing 70 miles in the expressway – you’re not stopping, you’re not getting these papers back ever. I was like, “Well, this is dumb.” So I’m mad at myself the whole way home. I’m like, “How am I this young and I’m using a pen and paper. What am I thinking? There’s got to be an app for this.” And the app store was there. There were apps, but it wasn’t like it is today, where there’s an app for everything.
So I get home and I’m starting to look, open house app, open house ledger… I was going through, and I find a couple. I’ve always been a CRM guy. I have a database of people that I’ve talked to since 2007. I can go back to the first person I ever spoke to in my database. And I was “Why wouldn’t somebody create a simple product that would just push the information into my CRM?” I don’t need it to do anything except collect information, push it into my CRM. A very simple product, and it wasn’t available. The only products that were out were self-contained, meaning if I use it to sign in, the only place I can see those records is if I go into that app and I go look in there… And that’s fine, except if you have two or three iPads at the same open house; now you have two or three iPads that you have to look for people that sign to the open house, so they didn’t sync across each other.
So I was like, “You know what? This is crazy. We’ve got to do something about this.” So I basically made that app. It was called AM Open House, it was in 2014, and we launched that 90 days later, so on July 14th of 2014 we launched that app. It was kind of an instant hit. We had about a couple of hundred users the first month, we were up to 1,000 after a couple of months, by the end of the year we were at 5,000, and by the end of the next year, we had over 125,000 people across the country and Canada using that app.
So I started to find ways to leverage my previous experience of being in real estate, being an agent, being an investor, to saying How can I start to develop technology that agents can use to better their business?” I never wanted to be the person to replace any single product, I just wanted you to be able to insert what we offered into what you already have, and make no additional changes to your business.
Ash Patel: You sound like somebody that doesn’t sit still and you move on from one challenge to the next. Do the fix and flips and the real estate deals – does that still excite you today?
Anthony Mann: Yeah, the flips are totally exciting. Obviously, the rentals are exciting, too. It’s great to add income or whatnot. But the flips are definitely exciting, especially right now. The markets are out of control. You can’t even buy property right now, it’s so insane with the way the numbers are. So when we get a property now, it’s that much more exciting. It’s like, “Well, we got one we could actually make money on.”
Ash Patel: What are you doing now to find these deals?
Anthony Mann: We’re just putting in tons of offers. We have people out there sending us listings every day, and if the numbers make sense, we just throw offers in. Well, for every 100 offers we put in, we get 99 people who say no, and we expect that, especially in today’s market. It’s probably even higher than that; it’s probably for every 150 we’re putting in, we’re getting one right now. It’s just a crazy market.
I have a client in San Diego, and he sold a house for $300,000 over the asking price. What do you mean $300,000 over the asking price? That’s unfortunately the market we’re dealing with right now. So once it levels off, I think the fix and flip market will come back pretty strong. But right now, people are trying to move out of the city, and home sales are just absolutely incredible.
Ash Patel: How do you find a competitive edge when you’re putting these offers in? Because you have one of many offers? What do you know–
Anthony Mann: At the end of the day, they’re numbers. If the numbers work, we’re glad to take it; no contingencies, all cash, all that stuff. But if they don’t, even if it’s $5 more, if the numbers don’t work, the numbers don’t work. We’re pretty strict about our criteria.
Ash Patel: Where do you get your data from to evaluate these properties?
Anthony Mann: We have agents that we partner with in every market that we purchase in, so we leverage them. When there’s a good deal out there, we have them send us all the comps that we need. And again, we’re very specific; if it’s a cape or if it’s a split, don’t send me colonials to comp that against. Be real. I don’t care if it’s a year old or six years old, get me real comp so I can get a real number.
The agents know that after we rehab them, they’re going to get the listings back, they’re going to get all those things… So they don’t want to fight the relationship to make five extra grand, it doesn’t matter to them. Because they have a lot more on the back end coming to them. As long as they do right by us, we’ll always do right by them.
Ash Patel: So you’re leveraging all of your relationships, which is originally what got you successful in the first place, the six months of building relationships. That’s been the theme throughout your investing career. Awesome. So what’s in the future? If you think the market is superheated now… Obviously, the market is going to come down at some point. How do you adjust your strategy and what’s next?
Anthony Mann: I think there are two parts to that. I think that the market is going to level off, if not the end of 2021, I think early 2022. I think we got some time in this market still. Inventory is super-tight. I think there are 42 days’ worth of inventory across the country right now. So for anybody who follows those numbers, typically there’s four months’ worth of inventory. There’s about a third of that available, which is why prices are being driven up. But when inventory levels do come back up and prices start to level off, I think that’s going to be coupled with interest rates going up, so I think we’re going to see a decrease in home value relatively quickly after we level off as well. Let’s hope the stock market stays where it is.
But how do we pivot from that? We’ve been very structured since 2009 or 2010 when we really started doing this. So to say that we’ll pivot – I don’t necessarily know that we will. We still want to know what’s it going to sell for, what we can afford to buy it for, how much the rehab will cost… I don’t think that’s going to matter. Where I think things are going to change is things like the costs of the rehabs.
Right now, lumber costs are up 80% from where they were a year ago, which makes a huge difference, $10,000 is now $18,000. It’s a massive difference in what it costs to redo a basement, let’s say, or take down walls, or reconfigure a living area. I think the way we look at costs for rehab is going to change drastically. I don’t necessarily think the buy and sell part of it will really change for us, but I think the rehab portion, I think for everybody is going to change pretty drastically.
Ash Patel: So Anthony, you have a machine with single-family homes. You’re turning and burning these things, and you’re holding a good number of them as well. Would you look at other asset classes – multifamily, commercial, non-residential?
Anthony Mann: 100%. And I actually look back and I wish in 2009 I knew what I know now. I would have started with commercial property. My problem then was that I was brand new in the business, and all I saw was commercial vacancies. But now I look back and I say, “I wish I would have done the multifamily thing. I wish I would have done commercial strips.” Because we need those, everybody needs them. It doesn’t matter where they are in the country, they’re necessary parts of everyday life. If I can go back, that’s what I would do. I would have never bought a single-family home. Buying doors is great and they’re good income. As I said, we Section-8 them so we treat it more as a business than the traditional landlord out there. Because we have one tenant for all our properties. It’s the city that we’re in. So it’s a little different than the traditional landlord who looks at it and says, “Oh, I have 10 or 15 or 20 tenants out there” that they have to physically deal with. So if I would have definitely done things a little differently, I would have gone to the multifamily asset class 100%.
Ash Patel: Alright, so now that you know that, you can’t go back in time… So what are you doing so that you can implement that going forward? What are you doing to acquire those strips of the multi-families?
Anthony Mann: We’re in the process currently of starting to liquidate the single-family homes and 1031 them into multi-use buildings. So ideally, what I’d like is four to six units on top of three to four units of retail. That’s what I’m looking to purchase. I think that it’s a happy medium between the two, where commercial rents – you’re going to get good retail rents at the bottom, and then because of the nature of any business, you want to have those “single families” or individual people renting on top. It keeps income consistent. You lose one tenant or you lose a commercial tenant, you don’t have to worry about what’s going on with the world or the economy right now. So if you have both things together, I think it’s where we want to go. So we’re going to start liquidating those probably over the next two years or so, 1031 them into these multi-use assets.
Ash Patel: That’s a great outlook. I’m a big fan of those as a good transition from somebody coming from single families wanting to get into multifamily or commercial. That combination of having retail and apartments above it is a great transition, because you still have that comfort factor of bringing in guaranteed rents. Awesome, man. What’s your best real estate investing advice ever?
Anthony Mann: Somebody told me this back in probably 2008. They said, “Never worry about finding the money. If you find the deal, the money will find you.” It proved true; in that first deal that I told you guys about, it proved true. I had the deal, we knew what we were going to sell it for, we knew everything about it. I didn’t have the money; I got into contract, I put my own money at risk, and the money found me eventually. The deal made sense. So never be scared to make the deal before you find the money.
Ash Patel: That is a great piece of advice, but I want to elaborate on that a little bit. I was on a real estate forum and there were a lot of newer investors. One person started a forum post that said, “Hey, guys. Does anybody else think it’s nonsense that people say, if you have the deal, the money will come?” You wouldn’t believe how many people responded and said, “They’re full of it. That’s not true.” I’m blown away, because I’m in the same mindset as you – if you have a great deal, the money will come. So what would you say to those people that don’t believe that?
Anthony Mann: Get out of your own way; honestly, just get out. Stop listening to everybody else, go find the deal, and you’ll find the money. I always say sales cures all. So when you make a deal, that’s when you’re making a sale on that property, you sold that person to sell you the property for the price that you wanted it. You already know that if you bought it for that price, you can sell it for X dollars more. So if you can close those deals every single time, the money will always follow behind you. And don’t get me wrong, if you just put the deal on paper and you don’t go ask people for money, the money’s not going to find you. But if you have the deal, go out there and tell people you have the deal. “It’s locked up, all I need is this, this is what we’re going to make out of it.” If you don’t have money, make the investor a sweetheart deal. On that first deal that the investor walked in with a check for 525,000, this guy didn’t know me from a hole in the wall. He made $60,000 in 42 days, and I was fine with that, because I didn’t have the money to close the deal.
So make them a sweetheart deal. It doesn’t have to be only towards you, it doesn’t have to be 12% a month or whatever hard money is going for today. Give the guy a sweetheart deal, let him trust you; he’ll start doing more and more deals with you and giving you better and better rates. Just get the deal done and the money will find you.
Ash Patel: That is incredible advice. I guess it’s not magical, the money is going to come in; you just have to put it out there. Another great point that you brought up – somebody else asked me, on my first syndication or joint venture, “What should my return be? What do I get out of it?” My answer to him was, “That’s the wrong way to look at it. Who cares about your return? This is your first deal.” Like you said, “Reward the investors first, build your credibility, build your track record.” That’s incredible advice. Thank you for sharing that.
Anthony Mann: To this day I still call that investor sometimes. And he doesn’t even question it. He just wires money. We’ve built a rapport; it has been 11 years now. He knows that we’re going to do good business, he just wires it. He’s like “Fine, pay me back when you pay me back.” No term, no, nothing; he just knows that’s how we do business. It’s very important to build that rapport with people who have money. It’ll change the way you invest in real estate.
Ash Patel: And you’ve just reiterated your underlying theme, build relationships. Anthony, are you ready for the lightning round?
Anthony Mann: I am. Let’s do it.
Ash Patel: Awesome. First, a quick word from our partners.
Ash Patel: Anthony, what’s the Best Ever book you’ve recently read?
Anthony Mann: I just read Pitch Anything, Oren Klaff. A great book, great sales strategy on how to speak to people, how to really understand what people are selling, and how you can sell them on anything.
Ash Patel: Very cool. Anthony, what’s the Best Ever way you like to give back?
Anthony Mann: I’m a big charity guy. I go to a ton of charity events; obviously, this year has been a little different. But I’m a very big proponent of giving back to not only charities when you can, but also the community, especially in your local community. I’m a big shop local guy. I don’t like going to big box stores. If I can support the local drugstore, the local restaurants, and the local bars, that’s what I do. I try to stay away from chain restaurants and any of these big names stores, the Targets, and whatever are out there. It’s just who I am. I want to support local businesses, because every dollar that goes into local business supports another person in your community. Every dollar puts food on the table for their children, pays their mortgage payment, and it’s hugely important to me.
Ash Patel: That’s a great outlook. Anthony, how can the Best Ever listeners reach out to you?
Anthony Mann: Two ways. LinkedIn, @anthonymann, or Facebook, facebook.com/anthonymann85. Facebook message me, I will get back to you. It might take me a day to two, but I’ll get back to you.
Ash Patel: Anthony, thank you for being on the show and that great advice. You showed your persistence early on, where if you had not been persistent for that six months where you didn’t have a single deal, the outlook of your life would have been drastically different. So your persistence, building relationships, building a software company, buying blocks of homes remotely 1,000 miles away, and building an incredible empire.
Thank you again for such great advice. Good luck to you in the future with commercial real estate. Once you get into those apartment buildings in the mixed-use, we want you back on the show. I want to hear all about how you transitioned.
Anthony Mann: Sounds good. I’d love to come back and thank you so much for having me today.
Ash Patel: Awesome, Anthony. Have a Best Ever day. Thank you.
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