JF2103: Part-time Out Of State Investing With Nick Giulioni
Nick has 3 years of real estate experience, working full time in e-commerce sales for a large tech company. While working full-time he has acquired a 48 door portfolio consisting of singles, duplexes, and triplexes in Indianapolis, and he is based in San Francisco. He explains how his W-2 has helped him pursue real estate investing because of the insurance of a guaranteed income.
Nick Giulioni Real Estate Background:
- 3 years of real estate experience
- Works full-time in eCommerce sales for large tech companies
- Has a 48 door portfolio consisting of singles, duplexes, and triplexes in Indianapolis
- From San Francisco, California
- Say hi to him at: https://giulionirealestate.com/
- Best Ever Book: Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss
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Best Ever Tweet:
“Trying to make my partner happy and get them across the finish line was my top priority.” – Nick Giulioni
Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast, where we only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff. With us today, Nick Giulioni. How are you doing, Nick?
Nick Giulioni: I am doing so well. I appreciate you having me on.
Joe Fairless: Well, it’s my pleasure, and I’m glad you’re doing well. A little bit about Nick – he’s got three years of real estate experience, but get this, he’s got a 48-door portfolio consisting of single-family duplexes and triplexes in Indianapolis. He’s based in San Francisco though, so we’re gonna talk about that. He works full-time in e-commerce sales for a large tech company.
With that being said, Nick, do you wanna give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and your current focus?
Nick Giulioni: Absolutely. I have been extremely lucky over the last several years. I got into my first investment down in Southern California. Actually, it was a house-hack that my wife and I bought just about two weeks after we got married. If that didn’t prove that we can make it, nothing will. And since then, I’ve really invested myself into learning more and more about out-of-state investing. I’ve built an incredible network out in Indianapolis, and done a variety of different strategies, including portfolio acquisitions and seller financing to balloon my portfolio in that time and really be able to give back a little bit more.
Joe Fairless: Portfolio acquisitions and seller-financing. It sounds like you’ve got a couple tricks up your sleeve for how you’ve gotten to 48 units in three years, versus plodding along doing one deal of a single-family house at a time. So let’s skip to the good stuff – portfolio acquisitions and seller financing. Talk to us about maybe a specific example for each of them.
Nick Giulioni: I’ll tell you a little bit about a combination that I did. It was my most recent large deal I’ve done, and it was actually a 32-unit deal that was on the market for about 2.2 million dollars. I looked at it and really realized there was no way for me to be able to take it down, and went and negotiated with the seller a little bit; I negotiated down to a price that I thought was a little bit more fair, in the 2.15 range. I was able to bring a partner in to come buy six of those doors on their own, through traditional financing, and have the seller actually seller-finance the entire rest of the acquisition just to myself over the course of 20 years.
Joe Fairless: Okay, let’s unpack that… Let me make sure I’m writing that down correctly… A 32-unit, originally listed for 2.2?
Nick Giulioni: 2.2 million, yeah.
Joe Fairless: 2.2. You then said “No, I don’t want 2.2, I want 2.15”, so a decrease of approximately $50,000, because you said it was about that… You said the range…
Nick Giulioni: Yeah.
Joe Fairless: So you now have an interested seller at 2.15… But do you have the money to purchase that?
Nick Giulioni: This is actually an interesting one… I had no money.
Joe Fairless: You had no money. So you did not have any money to purchase anything… [laughs] Let alone a 2.15 million dollar property. So then you brought in a partner, that partner purchased six of those, and then the remaining units were seller-financed over 20 years.
Nick Giulioni: Yeah, that’s correct. So really, what I did is I sat down and I tried to have empathy for everybody involved. I kind of sat down and looked at it from everybody’s shoes… So this seller was in a position where he probably didn’t want to vacate the units, individually sell them, deal with all of the hassle associated with that… So he wanted a single transaction in order to get it all done.
Then I looked at it from my partner’s point of view – they were looking for a great deal. They weren’t looking for as much leverage or as much risk as I necessarily was… He just wanted to buy something below market value and add it to their portfolio… And for me, I wanted as many doors and as much cashflow as I could possibly get. So really, I just kind of had to look at it from all sides, and from the seller’s perspective, my partner coming in with traditional financing – that actually looked like cash to pay off their outstanding notes. So in all of this, I was able to piece something that was pretty darn special together.
Joe Fairless: Got it. So was it two separate transactions, or…?
Nick Giulioni: It was two separate transactions contingent upon one another.
Joe Fairless: Okay. Did the both close on the same day, or the same week?
Nick Giulioni: They did, they closed on the exact same day. It was actually one of the smarter moves I’ve made recently. I actually had it closed on the second of the month, and by doing that, I actually received a check at closing for prorated rents and taxes and all that stuff… So I actually got a check of $30,000 to take down all of these doors. About 1.6 million dollars of property.
Joe Fairless: Right. You say 1.16?
Nick Giulioni: No, 1.6 million.
Joe Fairless: Got it. So it was like 550k for those 6 units?
Nick Giulioni: Yeah, my partner brought in about 550k.
Joe Fairless: And he paid it all cash for those six units?
Nick Giulioni: They did use cash off of a HELOC of an existing property they had.
Joe Fairless: Got it. And when we say “partner”, is this person in the seller finance deal with you as well?
Nick Giulioni: Nope. Completely separate transactions.
Joe Fairless: So when we say “partner”, it’s really he bought his thing, you bought your thing, and then you went about your separate ways.
Nick Giulioni: That’s correct, yeah.
Joe Fairless: Okay. Wow, props to you on this. The seller financing terms – can you talk to us about that? You mentioned it was over 20 years, but any other details?
Nick Giulioni: Absolutely. It is a 20-year amortization, 20-year term, so I don’t have to worry about it over that period. The rate was actually on the higher side, at 6%, but this was actually about 9-10 months ago. I’ve actually gone to the seller since then and asked if they would be willing to renegotiate those terms, given where current market conditions are. Now, this have gotten a little wonkier here in the last couple days, but generally, rates are in the low-fours to five, and I have actually gone back to them and we are currently negotiating a refinance to change that to over 30 years, and a 5% rate.
Joe Fairless: Okay. And what is their position, where they were amenable to doing this type of structure. You said they wanted the ease of transaction, but can you talk a little bit more about why they would do this?
Nick Giulioni: Yeah – for them, they needed to move out of the Indianapolis area, and they had been self-managing for years, and were really just looking to retire. So from their perspective, this looked like a continued passive income; it meant that they didn’t have to necessarily pay capital gains all at once across their entire portfolio that they had spent decades putting together… And it was an easy transition for them. They knew that at some point there was a decent chance I may end up refinancing and they could get cashed out… Or they may just carry it to term.
Joe Fairless: Okay. And approximately how old are the sellers?
Nick Giulioni: They’re on the older side. This was definitely a retirement play for them.
Joe Fairless: Okay. So 50, 60, 70…?
Nick Giulioni: I would say in the late 60s.
Joe Fairless: Late 60s, okay. And the property – I think I picked up on that based on what you’ve just said, that these units are spread out over Indianapolis… But will you elaborate? I might be misinterpreting it.
Nick Giulioni: No, these were actually all very close to each other; they’re in a neighborhood called Irvington. Definitely one that’s on the upswing quite a bit. It’s been appreciating quite well for me. It’s an area I’ve loved for actually a long time, and this just happened to fall in my lap, so it was pretty convenient, from my perspective… Actually, several of them are on the same block. There’s this one block in Irvington that — basically, I own the entire thing, on both sides.
Joe Fairless: The gentleman who used a HELOC to get the six units for about 550k – how did he choose the six units that he chose?
Nick Giulioni: That was a lot of horse-trading going out throughout the entire situation, and making sure that there was enough equity within the pieces without putting me into a negative equity situation… So it really just came down to “Hey, where do we think these are all worth? Let’s figure out how to build some equity for you on the buy, because I’m getting so much value with the 100% seller financing.”
Joe Fairless: Okay. So during that horse-trading, what are some lessons that you learned or some observations that you had as a result of those conversations? …because a lot of people haven’t been in that type of situation, with this type of structure.
Nick Giulioni: I probably could have been a little bit harder and been a better advocate for myself. I was just feeling so lucky that this whole thing was working out that I wasn’t being too tough, or anything. At the end of the day, I was trying to be fair to everybody involved, and I felt like I was getting one heck of a deal, no matter what happens. So for me, trying to make my partner happy and get them across the finish line was my top priority… But there were several ways I could have probably improved it for myself, and gotten a property that I would have preferred… But in the grand scheme of things, it’s a small price to pay.
Joe Fairless: Doing some quick math – and correct me if I’m wrong, but $550,000 is $91,000 a door.
Nick Giulioni: Yup.
Joe Fairless: And the difference is 26 units remaining, and that is a 1.6 million dollar all-in price, which is 61.5k/door. So your per-unit cost is significantly less than what his per-unit cost is in a similar area… So what am I missing, where it sounds like you’ve got a really good deal, because you’re paying much less per unit?
Nick Giulioni: That’s a great question. I definitely took on some of the lower-end properties that needed a little more work, and have thus invested since then to get them up to my expectations. I also took on more of the multifamilies. There were quite a few duplexes and triplexes in this, and the per-unit on those were significantly lower, where my partner was more interested in the single-family space.
Joe Fairless: Okay, got it. Where does the money come from to rehab the ones that need help?
Nick Giulioni: So I was being a little flippant when I said I didn’t have any money to invest. I actually did, and at that point I had 20 doors, give or take… So I was essentially using cashflow to do it. And like you talked about, I am extremely lucky to work in e-commerce sales, and am able to throw that W-2 in there. My wife and I live well below our means, and are trying to accelerate this as quickly as humanly possible.
Joe Fairless: You live in San Francisco. Are you from Indianapolis?
Nick Giulioni: I am not from Indianapolis. I do have family out there… I just listened to way too many podcasts early on, and found out that Indianapolis was a pretty strong market, and opted to lean in there.
Joe Fairless: Why did you pick Indianapolis?
Nick Giulioni: A variety of reasons why I like it. Number one, it’s affordable, and when I was starting out, I definitely had less capital to work with… So that was a good starting point. It cash-flows fairly effectively. The 1% rule tends to work on almost every deal there, assuming you’re not in a super A-class neighborhood. And in the grand scheme of things, it’s actually a pretty cool city. I know a lot of people probably that are listening here haven’t actually been there, but it’s a darn cool place to go hang out. And if I get to see family AND I get to make money, it’s a win in my book.
Joe Fairless: How did you find the deal?
Nick Giulioni: This particular deal actually came to me from a seller’s agent who I’d worked with in the past on a different portfolio acquisition, and actually had come to the table with a relatively similar transaction style… So this agent knew “Hey, Nick’s a creative guy. Even if he doesn’t have the money, he’ll figure out a way to get it done and bring some partners into the equation. She actually brought it to me off-market.
Joe Fairless: And how did you initially have that relationship with her again?
Nick Giulioni: We had done a 13-unit deal together about a year earlier, and had come up with a similar type of arrangement… She had found my buyer’s agent at that point, and honestly, it was just luck and happenstance that that first transaction actually occurred… And then the second one followed just given my reputation at that point.
Joe Fairless: What deal have you lost money on?
Nick Giulioni: Oh, yeah… My second deal in Indianapolis – gosh, that one still hurts! I had done one awesome triplex deal with this new hungry agent, and had done very well with it, trusted him, and he said “Hey, this duplex is a slam dunk. Go for it.” He gave me some estimates… It turns out that he didn’t really inform me that he was representing both sides of that deal. And I remember getting into the house after investing about 50% more than his rehab budget, and just looking around and sitting there in tears.
Joe Fairless: You literally cried?
Nick Giulioni: Yeah, I was literally crying in the place and realizing I could never let somebody live here… So that’s when I called my new buyer’s agent, who I’d had brief interactions with, and I said “Hey, we’re listing this one.” I think I lost about $5,000. And I’ve gotta tell you, best education I possibly could have had was that $5,000, because I learned a variety of things… How to build a more effective network, how to make sure that you have different parties that are watching your backs that are not related… It was a very cheap education as compared to a lot of it out there.
Joe Fairless: And when to cut your losses.
Nick Giulioni: Absolutely, yeah. We closed on that house the day before Christmas Eve. It was the best Christmas present I possibly could have asked for that year… And definitely, I sent the guy — because the guy was moving in actually on that day… I made sure that he had a Christmas tree delivered on his front porch when he got there.
Joe Fairless: Oh, that’s pretty cool. Okay, so the real estate agent was representing both sides, didn’t disclose it, or wasn’t announcing it very transparently if it was disclosed somewhere… But from a numbers standpoint, regardless of if he was repping both sides, it still boils down to the numbers, and if the deal makes sense… So what about your process have you changed in order to validate the numbers?
Nick Giulioni: I’m no longer trusting agents to give me any estimates of rehab. That certainly has changed. Or at least if I do trust their initial estimates, I’m always making sure that prior to closing and prior to my inspection window closing I always have one of my contractors go through and check it out, and actually give me at least a little bit more detailed scope of work. So that’s definitely an important lesson in that one.
On top of that, I will oftentimes now have my property manager check out the house, check out the area prior to that inspection window closing, making sure that they’re comfortable actually representing in that particular area, and just kind of validating, making sure that there’s a certain amount of accountability. The agent obviously wants to make the sale. That’s how they make their commission. But then you have to make sure everybody else along the chain is holding that individual accountable for what they say.
Joe Fairless: I’d love to learn about your process when you come across a deal, and how you verify the deal is a good one, knowing that you don’t live in that city… So let’s just pretend — or maybe even use an example, the last deal you closed on; you heard about it, then what took place to say “Yup, I’m definitely making XYZ offer.”
Nick Giulioni: My most recent is a condo. I purchased it from a buddy of mine who’s actually a wholesaler. I think he’s an incredible, incredible guy; we’ve been friends now for about a year… But I’ve gotta tell you, I wasn’t gonna trust his numbers without having him validated…
So he’s a wholesaler… I had him actually walk out there with my inspector (that I paid for), and go through this house and put together “Hey, these are the challenges with the house.” I had then my contractor, who wasn’t able to get in there prior to closing – I had him actually look at the inspection report and put together a scope of work based on that. And to be honest, the repairs that I would wanna do were slightly above where my buddy’s estimates were… And that’s okay, because the two of us chatted it through and made sure the numbers made sense… Because this is one that I’m hoping to BRRRR, and then do short-term rentals on. It’s an incredible condo. But I just had to make sure that he understood that the $5,000 estimate wasn’t where it was probably gonna come in. It was probably gonna come in closer to 10k-11k, in that range, and just make sure the numbers made sense on those new criteria.
Joe Fairless: What’s been a surprise that you’ve come across, that we haven’t talked about, while purchasing these properties?
Nick Giulioni: Yeah, there’s a lot of challenges that I’ve faced that have been surprising. I’ll tell you the most recent of which – and I apologize I’ve gotta be a little more vague than I’d like to… I recently had a property manager go out of business pretty immediately. And unfortunately, there was no warning and there were no funds to get my security deposits back, get my rents, anything like that. Currently, we’re exploring options with insurance, and stuff like that, to get it fixed, but… This happened actually right before this last Christmas, and having to scramble there on the 18th of December to find new property management for not just my properties, which obviously was tough, but trying to protect all the other investors out there who were affected. That was definitely a challenge I hadn’t accounted for. And you don’t build that into your proforma; that’s not something that exists in any of those Bigger Pockets calculators.
Joe Fairless: [laughs] How were you notified that they’re closing the doors?
Nick Giulioni: I was informed by one of the employees, and validated it with a different employee. The funds were no longer there, and the company was shutting down.
Joe Fairless: Oh, wow… And besides insurance options, are there also legal options that are being considered?
Nick Giulioni: They’re definitely being considered. I think at the end of the day nobody wants to end up in court… So I think finding the insurance option is probably everyone’s best bet.
Joe Fairless: What type of insurance would cover a property manager disappearing in the middle of the night?
Nick Giulioni: It would potentially be called errors and omissions insurance. All agents should have that insurance. I’m learning a whole lot more about this currently…
Joe Fairless: [laughs] More than you wanted to…
Nick Giulioni: Way more than I wanted to… So maybe that’s a follow-up call. Once I’ve seen this whole thing through, you and I can talk a little bit more about what it looks like on the other side.
Joe Fairless: What’s the most profitable deal that you’ve got so far?
Nick Giulioni: I’ve gotta tell you, that one I was telling you earlier, about the big seller finance deal, where I was able to get 26 units – that thing’s been absolutely incredible. From a high-level, I actually don’t really cash-flow on it all that effectively, given how highly leveraged I am, and being at 6% interest rate… It cash-flows a couple hundred dollars, but if we really look at the total internal rate of return on that one – I have no money in the deal; I actually got paid, so I have negative money in the deal…
Joe Fairless: What about the renovation though? I thought you were renovating the units…
Nick Giulioni: Yeah, you’re right; I’ve probably invested about 50k.
Joe Fairless: Well, that’s a lot of money…
Nick Giulioni: That’s a lot of money, but I got a check for 30k at closing, so let’s consider that 20k invested, which again, is real money… But then my monthly paydown, just all my loan by itself, is in the range of $5,000 at this point… And I’m still getting a couple hundred dollars of cashflow. On top of that, the houses have actually appreciated, and I believe will continue to appreciate even in these kinds of crazy times. So I would say that for $20,000 locked in a deal, I’m certainly making out like a bandit in that one. Heck, I think I’ve paid for it just in the loan paydown in the last couple months.
Joe Fairless: Props to you for putting that deal together, and having the creativity and the resourcefulness to get it done by bringing in the partner to buy cash, and then doing seller financing.
Based on your experience, for someone who is wanting to educate themselves about portfolio acquisitions and seller financing, what’s your best advice ever to that person?
Nick Giulioni: I think I said it earlier, but you’ve gotta have empathy, and really sit down and try and understanding it from everyone’s point of view. One of the books that really resonates with me – I actually read it after this particular deal, but I’ve found it very helpful in understanding the mechanisms by which I was working – was actually “Never Split the Difference”, by Chris Voss. It’s one of the best books I’ve read. I probably re-read it every quarter or so, just to remind myself… There are so many tactics that are just absolutely incredible. And it’s not necessarily just about portfolio acquisitions, it’s about negotiating in general and having empathy for those you’re working with.
Joe Fairless: We’re gonna do a lightning round. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?
Nick Giulioni: I’m so ready!
Joe Fairless: Alright, then let’s do it. First, a quick word from our Best Ever partners.
Joe Fairless: What’s the best ever book you’ve recently read, besides “Never Split the Difference” by Chris Voss?
Nick Giulioni: Man, a tough one… I definitely love to read; I try and read at least a book every single week, and write up a book report… So I’ve gotta say the most recent one that I’ve really enjoyed was “The Infinite Game” by Simon Sinek.
Joe Fairless: Well, you can’t just slip in there you write a book report about books that you read and then me not ask a follow-up question… [laughter] What is the outline for the book report that you write?
Nick Giulioni: I actually just kind of free-form it as I go, and try and find what the most important points are, and just [unintelligible [00:23:52].05] for myself. I read so much, and I’m trying to learn so much that it’s easy to forget things. So if I’m able to just kind of go back and quickly reference the key points… I actually send this out to a couple of friends that hold me accountable, but… The general approach is to just get a couple of key points so that I can remember what was actually important in everything I read.
Joe Fairless: Do they send you their notes on books they read?
Nick Giulioni: Not as many as I should be getting. I should be giving them a much harder time.
Joe Fairless: [laughs] But it’s understood that this group of friends or this group of people exchange reports on books that are read…
Nick Giulioni: No, I’m just the weird one that actually sends out an email blast.
Joe Fairless: You’re the one, okay. Got it. Alright. [laughs]
Nick Giulioni: I’m just the weirdo over-achiever.
Joe Fairless: What’s a mistake you’ve made on a transaction that we have not talked about already?
Nick Giulioni: In my infinite wisdom once, in a portfolio acquisition that I did – it was four units. I was trying to think ahead and realized that if I got them all on individual notes from the same seller, then it would be easier to refinance, versus having to refinance all of them simultaneously. What I didn’t realize is that by doing that, I was actually taking up one of those 10 golden slots that you talk about when doing conventional financing… So in my infinite wisdom of trying to make it easier to refinance, I basically screwed myself up for conventional loans moving forward.
Joe Fairless: [laughs] What’s the best ever way you like to give back to the community?
Nick Giulioni: I love reaching out to people and helping people get started in real estate. My wife has started helping me with a blog, but I hop on calls with people, 5-10 different investors every single week, trying to help them get started… So that would be my way of giving back.
Joe Fairless: How can the best ever listeners learn more about what you’re doing?
Nick Giulioni: You can reach out to me on Bigger Pockets, you can find my website at giulioni.com; I hope it’s in the show notes, because it’s got a lot of vowels… And I would love to help anybody who would like to reach out.
Joe Fairless: Is giulionirealestate.com also your website?
Nick Giulioni: That’s correct, yeah. They both go to the same place.
Joe Fairless: Good stuff. Nick, thanks for being on the show, talking about your portfolio acquisitions and seller-financing deals, how you structured it… One key thing that you do for any deal, and that’s have empathy for all; one resource for practicing that – Never Split the Difference, by Chris Voss… And getting into the numbers of the deals, which we all love.
Thanks for being on the show. I hope you have a best ever day, and we’ll talk to you again soon.
Nick Giulioni: Thanks so much.
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