JF1466: Finding and Underwriting Apartment Deals | Best Ever Apartment Syndication Book (Part 3 of 4) #FollowAlongFriday with Joe and Theo
After hearing about parts one and two of the Best Ever Apartment Syndication Book, today we’ll learn some more about part three: finding and underwriting deals. To hear what to do in competitive offer situations and more great tips from Joe and Theo, tune in today! If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!
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Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff.
Today we’re doing Follow Along Friday, and more relevant to you, we are going to give you the five factors that you should be aware of when you’re in a competitive bid situation, when you’re bidding on a deal; you have essentially five categories that you should keep in mind, and we’ll give you some tips for those categories, for how to win the deal without breaking your budget. That’s one conversation that we’ll have.
Then another conversation that we’ll have is three things to look out for whenever you’re reviewing the broker’s comps on a deal. You should always do your own comp analysis when you’re looking at a deal, but then there are three things in particular that you might not be looking at, that you definitely want to be looking at… So we’re gonna talk about that, too.
All of this is coming from the book that is going to be published on Tuesday of next week – Best Ever Apartment Syndication Book. It is 450 — did it make 50? I’m trying to think… 436, right? How many pages was that?
Theo Hicks: I think overall, including the introduction material, it’s 456 pages.
Joe Fairless: 456… It’s a monstrosity. It is the how-to book for raising money and buying apartment communities. If you haven’t pre-ordered it yet, then go pre-order it by going to apartmentsyndicationbook.com. That way, you get some free goodies that we’re giving away along with the book whenever you purchase it. Those are available when you pre-order, or during the first week of purchase. ApartmentSyndicationBook.com.
The previous two Fridays we have discussed 1) experience – how to get experience, knowledge, how to align yourself with experienced people and how to acquire the knowledge, and what knowledge you need to have, and also the importance of brand building and thought leadership.
That was experience, two Fridays ago, and then last Friday we talked about money – you need money to do these deals, so you can go listen to last Friday’s episode if you wanna learn about how to build a roster full of private investors who you attract into your deals. And then today we’re gonna be talking about what I mentioned earlier, which is related to the actual deal itself.
Oh, and Theo Hicks, how are you doing?
Theo Hicks: I’m doing great, Joe. How are you doing?
Joe Fairless: I’m so excited about that I just jumped right in. I didn’t even say hi to you… Although I said hi to you when we talked before we started recording. But officially, hello. How do you wanna approach this?
Theo Hicks: As you mentioned, we’re gonna have part three today of the book, which is all about finding, underwriting and sending offers on your deals. After you’ve got the experience and the private/passive money lined up, next up is start looking for deals. So in this particular episode we’re gonna focus on finding the deals and the underwriting.
For finding the deals, one of the things that you’re gonna do after you find them is underwrite them and submit an offer. Sometimes, especially in today’s market, you’re likely gonna be in a competitive offer situation, so you want to approach your offer accordingly. Most people who haven’t done a deal before probably think that the only fact that matters is the price, but in reality that’s just one of the five factors that a seller is gonna take into account when reviewing the offers and selecting the best one.
Of course, one of them is going to be price. So if you have the lowest price, all things equal, it’s not gonna look as the highest price. So when you’re submitting an offer, especially in these competitive offer situations, you wanna make sure that you’re submitting the highest price that you can for the deal to make sense from a return perspective.
Now, that doesn’t mean that just because you’re offering the highest price you’re going to win, because these other four factors are gonna be taken into account, but the price is obviously gonna be one thing the seller is gonna look at.
Joe Fairless: I know first-hand for a fact that a deal we have under contract right now, we offered $400,000 less than the other group, and we got awarded the deal. So we were not highest on the price; we were almost half a million dollars below what the highest offer was on the price, but we got awarded the deal. And we got awarded the deal because of our track record and some of these other factors that we’ll go into. And this gives hope for single-family investors who are wondering about the learning curve and the type of experiences they’ve had in single-family and how that translates into multifamily.
Well, in single-family you do get awarded deals if you show strength from a closing standpoint. If you go in with a lower offer, but the seller really needs to get out of their property, then it’s possible that you’ll get awarded the offer, versus someone who has not as proven of a track record as you. And for all the single-family home investors who have 10+ deals under their belt – I know you know what I’m talking about – you get awarded deals based on other things than price. Price is certainly a determining factor, and it depends on the seller how much of a determining factor that is… But it’s not the only factor.
Theo Hicks: Exactly. And that naturally transitions to number two, which are the terms. At the end of the day, you have to know what the seller wants – do they want to exit as quickly as possible? Do they want a non-refundable deposit? Is that something that would sway them to a direction? All-cash offers, so if they wanna close faster, then you submit an all-cash offer; they don’t have to wait for you to go through all the financing process, and they don’t have to worry about the deal not being qualified by the lender. They’ll know that “Okay, I don’t have to worry about the financing aspect, because this person is paying all cash.”
Also, something else that you can do for the terms – if they wanna close quickly, if you can waive certain due diligence items. I’m not saying you should do this, but they’re just all options that you can do. You always wanna inspect the property, but… Let’s say your team member or your partner is a commercial real estate contractor, he’s been doing this for 20+ years; instead of having a professional inspector going in there, if you’re doing an all-cash offer, you can just have your contractor look at it instead.
Of course, if you’re doing financing, you’re going to need to get an inspection and do certain due diligence items in order to qualify for the loan, but essentially, you wanna just take a look at your purchase and sale agreement, go through all the terms and see what you can do to make it more competitive, whether it be a non-refundable deposit, deposit a higher earnest deposit, shortening the closing period, all-cash offer… Things like that. Because again, if the seller wants to close faster, or have more confidence in your ability to close, you can tweak the terms to fulfill that need for them.
Joe Fairless: One thing you could also do – to build on what you said; it’s not in addition to, but it’s just a bullet point underneath – with a non-refundable earnest money deposit is instead of having that be held with the title company, if you were to be so bold, you could have that released directly (or immediately) to the seller. That way, they know that they have that money in their bank account. Because what typically happens, even if it’s non-refundable, it’s gonna be with the title company, and before the title company releases it, they’re gonna need to have the okay from both sides.
And if your non-refundable money is with the title company and then something were to come up – maybe the seller was dishonest about something, or the environmental didn’t come back clean, or the title didn’t come back clean – something that would trigger an issue that they weren’t being honest about whatever that deal point was, then what typically happens is you go to court if you can’t agree that “Hey, you weren’t being honest with me… So yeah, it was non-refundable, but you misrepresented XYZ.” And then the seller will get whatever gets agreed upon through litigation. And the seller doesn’t wanna do that, clearly, so a display of strength would be to have that money released from the title company to the seller maybe after a week, or something… Just adding in that extra talking point or that contract point, and that will definitely give your non-refundable deposit some extra credibility, compared to someone else who’s doing non-refundable for the same amount of money. So you do have your offer stand out.
Now, I’m not suggesting anyone do this, by the way. I’m simply saying what is possible, and you decide if that is the right approach for the particular deal that you’re doing. We have had buyers release their non-refundable earnest money to us on transactions, to show “Hey, we’re gonna be closing on the deal that we’re buying from you guys, and here’s our non-refundable earnest money. Now it’s in your bank account, versus it’s with a third-party.”
Theo Hicks: Yeah, absolutely. I can imagine them having cash in hand being much stronger than them having to wait to get that money until the close.
For those first two, the price and the terms – these are things you need to think about when you’re submitting your actual letter of intent. So your first offer to the seller is usually gonna be a letter of intent (LOI), which is like a non-binding agreement, just setting up expectations for the price and terms. So you’re gonna be able to put your price and your terms on there. All those things we’ve just talked about, you wanna make sure you’re thinking about those when you’re underwriting the deal, or I guess after you’ve decided that you’re gonna submit an offer after underwriting; make sure you’re doing this upfront, and not doing it best and final, or kind of waiting until the end and holding all of your cards to your chest… Especially in a competitive situation, of course.
Number three is going to be relationships. Everyone knows how important relationships are in real estate. We might have talked about this last week, but when you’re looking for real estate brokers, you shouldn’t expect them to send you their best off-market deals after knowing them for a week. Once you know them for a while and you’ve proven that you’re able to close on deals, you’ll just start getting better and better deals from them.
The same thing works for when you’re actually submitting offers. If you know the listing broker, if you know the owner, you’re gonna have an advantage over someone that they don’t know, because as Joe mentioned in the intro, a track record is gonna be very important, and if they know you and they know your track record, you’re gonna have an advantage over someone that they don’t know at all, they’ve just met, if your offer is the exact same.
Joe Fairless: So the question you might be asking is “Okay, what if I just am going in cold? It’s a deal I’ve found on LoopNet, or it’s a deal that I am making an offer on because it’s just an on-market deal…” One tip for you in that case is to ask the listing broker if he/she has any preferred mortgage brokers for this transaction… Because at least then, you’re aligning yourself with someone who the listing broker knows well, and maybe has some sort of agreement, side agreement, or who knows what they’re doing behind the scenes. But at least you’re going into it with a familiar ally of the listing broker.
Theo Hicks: Exactly.
Joe Fairless: And anyone can do that. All you have to do is ask. Now, you don’t necessarily have to go with that mortgage broker, but if you’re open to seeing different terms, and if the mortgage broker who the listing broker is recommending is similar or better than the other options you’ve got, then it’s a no-brainer; you go with that and it will likely help you get awarded the deal, if all the other things are equal.
Theo Hicks: Exactly. On that same note, back to building relationships – it’s not as good as what you’ve just said, it’s kind of a tier below, but if you’re wanting to build a relationship with a specific real estate broker and you find an off-market deal or whatever, and obviously, they’re not gonna be involved in the process, you can use their mortgage broker or their property management company if they have all that included in their company, just to kind of push that relationship in a positive direction.
Number four – this is one that you might not even have thought about, but your team structure. Some owners, for example, won’t sell to a general partner that doesn’t have their own in-house property management company, for example. So if you have a third-party property management company, they might not sell to you or they might not be as competitive as if you’ve had your own in-house company. It might be true, but it also might be false, but the perception is that your company is not as integrated.
Remember, at the end of the day they wanna know that you are credible and that you are able to close on a deal. So if you have an integrated company, it kind of proves that you have that track record.
I remember a long time ago we talked about when you should bring on an in-house management company, and it’s once you have a large enough portfolio for it to make financial sense. So it’s perceived that you’re big enough that you have your in-house property management company.
Another example – and I believe we talked about this last week, with the alignment of interests – is also what other roles are your team members playing in the deal. Do you just have a property management company managing the property and that’s it? Or are they investors in the deal? Do they have equity in the deal? Have they brought on their own investors? Are they a loan guarantor? Who is your loan guarantor? Is it some other local owner who has experience, or are you just doing all this yourself? All those things are gonna come up during the best and final seller call if you get to that point; they’re gonna ask you about your team structure – who’s your property management company, are they third-party or in-house, who’s your lender? If you have a consultant, or some sort of mentor, or you’re partnered with a local owner, you wanna mention that.
So your entire team structure is something that could be a huge selling point for the deal, especially when you’re just starting off fresh and don’t have any experience.
Joe Fairless: We’ve lost out on a deal because we have a third-party management company. The seller went with another group that had similar terms (it sounded like; I don’t know for certain). They said that since we did not have an in-house management company, that they felt more comfortable with the company that did. That is not typical, but it did happen, and that’s why we included this in these factors.
Also, thinking about team structure, where you’re getting your equity – they’re team members, too. So the seller is certainly gonna be qualifying you and your equity partner or partners, asking you “Okay, have your equity partners reviewed the deal? Have they visited the property? Do they need to visit the property? If they don’t work out, where are you gonna get the equity? Have you ever partnered with those equity partners on previous deals? If so, how many?” Those are all the questions that you should be prepared to answer, and then some.
In the book we have all the questions — well, not all; I guess we’d never technically be able to have all, because people come up with random stuff… But most of the questions you should be prepared to answer during the conversation with the broker, and then also on the best and final call with the seller.
Theo Hicks: Number five, the last factor is your underwriting. Essentially, are you able to identify extra value-add opportunities, which are things that will either increase the revenue or decrease the expenses – so are you able to identify extra value-add opportunities that other people that are submitting offers are not finding? Because at the end of the day, if you can have a higher NOI, which means you have a lower expense or a higher income, then you can submit a higher offer.
This kind of ties back into the price, but the better you’ll get at underwriting, the better you’ll get at identifying value-add opportunities on properties, and the better team members you have that can do that as well, then the higher offers you’re gonna be able to submit.
And again, since price is one of the factors, if you become an underwriting wizard, and a wizard at identifying these opportunities, then you’re gonna be able to essentially win it. If you’re good enough at this, you could win almost every deal, because you’re gonna be able to submit a price that’s so much higher than everyone else’s, because you know you’re gonna recapture all that after you’ve implemented your business plan.
Joe Fairless: So what’s an example, Theo?
Theo Hicks: Instead of doing coin-operating laundry in the laundry facility, you put laundry into the actual units and raise the rents on each individual unit. We actually have a list of (I think it’s) 27 ways to add value to apartment communities. If you just google “Joe Fairless 27 ways to add value”, you’ll find that blog post, and those two things that I’ve mentioned, the washer and dryer, and the carports are on there, but it’s also a list of 25 other ways to add value. Essentially, you just wanna be creative with it.
Another example – I can’t remember who you interviewed, but they would increase their advertising budget a little bit, because they would host these resident appreciation parties constantly, with raffles, and just very engaging… So because of that, they were at like 99% occupancy. So instead of underwriting a 5%-8% vacancy rate, they could underwrite a 1% vacancy rate. I’m not saying you should do this, because you have to prove that you can do this first, but they’ve proven that they can maintain essentially a 100% economic occupancy by bumping up their advertising budget. So when that happens, when you underwrite and you’re 4%-6% extra revenue each month, you can submit a much higher offer.
These are all things to keep in mind, and as you’re listening to the podcasts — you could even listen to a podcast by someone who’s not an apartment investor and find an idea of a value-add opportunity… Just being creative, and of course, it takes time as well.
Joe Fairless: When I was getting started, I read a book by Dolf de Roos called Commercial Real Estate Investing – he talks about all sorts of different ways to add value, not just to apartment buildings, but to commercial real estate in general.
Theo Hicks: So before we move on, just to summarize – the five factors that will win, or result in you winning or losing a deal in a competitive offer situation is the price, the terms, your relationships with the seller and/or listing broker, how you structured your team and you communicate that, as well as your underwriting skills. So those are the five factors to keep in mind when you’re submitting an offer in competitive offer situations.
The second thing you wanted to talk about has to do with the actual underwriting process. When you’re underwriting your deals – let’s say it’s an on-market apartment deal – there will be an offering memorandum, which is the listing broker’s sales package; I’m sure everyone who has looked at apartment deals before has seen one of these… It essentially summarizes the offering and talks about the property description, and the market… But then it also has a proforma section where they talk about their expected projections for the property from a financial perspective. And also they’ll have their rental comps, which is what they use to calculate the new rents once the renovations are completed [unintelligible [00:23:10].02] raise the market rents. So here are three things to look for when you’re reviewing the rental comps from the listing broker.
As Joe mentioned before, you wanna do your own comps, but you can technically use theirs as long as you address these three questions first, and make sure that the answer is correct and they’re not trying to pull a fast one out of you. Question number one you wanna ask yourself is how far are these comps from the subject property? The mileage is important, because if they’re 40 miles away and it’s in a massive market, then it’s probably not gonna be a good comp. But more importantly, you wanna make sure that the subject property and the comp property are located in like areas.
If you like anywhere near downtown area, you know that one street could be an A and two blocks over could be a D area. So technically, when you look at the comp map and you might be like “Oh, these properties are one mile apart, so I don’t need to investigate further”, but if you end up investigating further, you’ll realize that one property is right next to a college, and the other property has a really high crime rate. So yeah, they’re close, but they’re not actually comps, because those neighborhoods are completely different, which means that the demographic is gonna be completely different.
So that’s one question, looking at the distance between the two properties and making sure the actual neighborhoods line up.
Number two – and I know Joe has mentioned this before, but this is a big one – is when was the property renovated? If you’re doing a value-add deal and you are going to base your rent premiums on the proven rents they’ve received by doing similar updates to the interiors, you wanna make sure that those were 1) done recently (within the past year), and 2) make sure that they’ve actually done enough, and done it at a rate similar to how quickly you’re gonna renovate them.
For example, a comp that has renovated five units in the past two years is a lot different than a comp that’s renovated five units in the past two months. So if they’ve renovated five units in the past two months, then you can expect to receive similar rental premiums, but if it’s been two years ago, who knows what the actual rent premiums are going to be, and you can’t necessarily rely on that data, because it didn’t happen fast enough… Unless of course you plan on renovating five in two years.
Joe Fairless: And these two points came from a deal that we were looking at. The deal was in Anderson, which is a suburb of Cincinnati, and they showed rent comps that were in areas called Norwood, which is not Anderson, and it’s completely different, and far away relatively speaking… And then the renovations looked good, but they’d been doing them over a two-year timeframe, and that’s not the timeframe that we do renovations; we want all the renovations done within 12 to 16-18 months. We want all of them done. They’d only done 10% within two years… But we want all of them done, definitely, within two years.
As a result, that doesn’t really give proof of what the market can command, because it’s just over too much of a timeframe. There’s all sorts of different variables that could have happened; they could have offered concessions, and now the concessions are burned off… They could have just been turned down by 75 people, and then the 78th person said “Yeah, I’ll buy it” because they had some weird circumstance, or they had to move in quickly and they had the ability to pay a little bit more. So you wanna see more of a pattern. That’s where the two came from, from an actual deal.
Theo Hicks: And then the third one is you want to ask yourself “Do the property operations match?” What I mean by property operations, one example would be the utilities – who pays for water, who pays for electric, who pays for gas? If the owner of the subject property, the owner pays for just water, and you plan on just paying for water as well, and the residents pay for their own electric and/or gas, and then you go look at the rental comps and you have a rental comp where the owner pays for everything, then those rents are gonna be completely different… Because if you’re including the utilities in the rent, it’s gonna be higher.
So if you’re listing a unit for rent and saying “All utilities included”, not only is someone going to rent that unit faster, but you’re gonna be able to demand a higher rate, because of the cost savings associated with saving $50-$100/month on utilities.
Another example from a property operations perspective is move-in specials. When you’re doing a rental comp analysis and you’re calling up or visiting these properties in person, you want to ask what type of concessions they’re offering; because if their rents are $50 higher than all the other rental comps in the area, and you call them up and they say “Yeah, we’re offering first month rent-free”, then in reality it’s not actually $50 higher, it’s actually lower, because they’re giving away free rent… So you’re gonna be able to demand a higher rent if you’re giving away first month’s rent free, reduced security deposit, referral fees, things like that.
So make sure that the types of concessions that are offered are similar at both properties. They don’t have to be exact, but just use common sense, and if one property has some crazy rent special and yours doesn’t, then you probably should pass on that rental comp and find another one.
Joe Fairless: But use that information as something you want to dig into more, because if someone’s doing major concessions in your submarket, then that could be a red flag.
Theo Hicks: Exactly.
Joe Fairless: One other thing – I have noticed on the 30 to 100 units that brokers will be more inclined to put all-bills-paid properties into the rent comps when comparing if their property is not all bills paid… Whereas 100+ units – you might have a more sophisticated buyer. I haven’t seen any brokers put all-bills-paid properties in the rent comps if their subject property was not all bills paid. But I have seen it multiple times with 30 to 100 units.
So if you’re buying in the 30 to 100 or 20 to 100 units, then be on the lookout for that, and just make sure you’re comparing apples to apples, because as Theo said, all-bills-paid properties, rent per square foot and overall rent will be through the roof compared to a non-all-bills-paid property.
Theo Hicks: In the book, when we go over the rental comps, we go over a lot more than this. We tell you exactly how to do rental comp investigation online, how to do it over the phone, and how to do it in person, to kind of cover all bases.
So just to summarize quickly, the three things to look out for when you’re reviewing the broker’s rental comps is 1) look at the distance between the subject property and the rental comp, and make sure that they’re in alike areas/neighborhoods. 2) Looking at the renovation timeline and making sure that the renovation timeline that they’ve used is comparable to how quickly you’re gonna do your renovations. And then finally, making sure the property operations are similar, as well.
That wraps up part three of the deal. Next week we’re gonna talk about the execution. Once you’ve submitted the offer on a deal, now it’s time to actually start executing your business plan, which starts with due diligence, and then closing, and then your asset management responsibilities. So we’ll be talking about a couple of topics as it relates to those.
I’m really excited for this book to be coming out next Tuesday.
Joe Fairless: Yeah, I am, too. I’m excited for how helpful it will be, and quite frankly, for us just to be done with it. [laughs] This has been a year in the making, and it’s been a labor of love for both of us, but now it’s time to give birth and kind of let the baby do its thing. Nothing else in the marketplace is out there that addresses the how-to guide for apartment syndication… So go to apartmentsyndicationbook.com and make sure you get the free goodies too, because we’ve got a bunch of good stuff that will be helpful for you when you pre-order, or order during the first week. The first week – that deadline is September 18th. By September 18th you’ll be eligible for all the free goodies if you go to apartmentsyndicationbook.com. And you’ve gotta e-mail the receipt to email@example.com.
Theo Hicks: Alright. Well, to wrap up, make sure you go to the Best Ever Community on Facebook – that’s BestEverCommunity.com. Each week we post a question of the week, and we use your responses to create a blog post.
This week’s question is “What is your greatest strength and how has it helped you as a real estate investor?” So what are you really good at and how has it been beneficial to your real estate investing career?
Joe Fairless: What’s yours?
Theo Hicks: Well, I was thinking about that, and I would say now — I’m not sure what the word would be, but I’ll just say my biggest strength is I don’t panic anymore. So if anything goes wrong, instead of having that moment of like “Oh my god, the world’s ending!”, I’ll just be like “Alright, it is what it is” and then with a clear mind I’ll come up with a solution quickly, rather than thinking about it constantly and letting it affect other aspects of my life. So kind of just — I guess a better term would be compartmentalize, so I can not think about it, and then once something comes up and I need to do it, I can turn everything else off, focus on that and do it. Once it’s done, I can turn that back off and go back to doing whatever else I’m doing, without letting it stress me out.
I wanna say that this is a newer ability. I did not have this when I first started off at all. I was the exact opposite. I’d be having a minor stroke for a year straight.
Joe Fairless: It is quite the skillset to be able to compartmentalize so that you are focusing on one thing and then knocking that out, because there is incredible power and focus, that’s for sure… And it’s something more and more people lack because of social media and just the way we operate with our smartphones, and being pulled in a lot of different directions; it’s the lack of focus. But when we do have focus towards something, it’s very powerful.
I would say mine is resourcefulness. I believe that whatever comes across my way, I’ll find a solution. Sometimes it’s not the solution that is most desirable, but I’m incredibly resourceful, and that has served me well as an entrepreneur; I make things happen, and it’s just something I’ve always had, and applying it to what we do has been very beneficial.
Theo Hicks: I would agree, you are very resourceful. And then lastly, make sure you subscribe to the podcast on iTunes and leave a review for the opportunity to be the review of the week. This week’s review is from LegacyDriven. The title of the review is “Be a sponge.” The content of the review is “I say ‘Be a sponge’, because I’ve listened to this podcast for about six months, and the knowledge I have gained is hard to believe. Since listening, I’ve rented my home that I was going to sell, and getting positive cashflow, too. I’m excited about acquiring more units and acquiring more knowledge with Joe along the way.”
Joe Fairless: That’s great. Congrats on renting that house out and getting some cashflow. What a huge difference that will be… That will have a ripple effect. Throw a stone in a pond and see the ripples; those ripples are all the positive actions that will take place as a result of you renting your place out and cash-flowing, versus buying a place and “upgrading” into a bigger and better place… Instead you did the right thing, in my opinion, based on me not knowing you — but generally speaking, you did the right thing to cash-flow, and then congrats on your future goals and looking forward to hearing more about how you do.
Thank you, everyone, for hanging out with us. I am confident that this was valuable if you’re raising money, buying apartments, or just an investor in general who’s looking to enter into any of these areas. And if not, then why are you still listening right now? [laughs] You should have turned it off a long time ago.
I sincerely appreciate the review by LegacyDriven. Powerful name, I like it! LegacyDriven, thank you for that review, and everyone else, please leave a review in iTunes to help us continue to have a high quality for you and everyone else. We’ll talk to you tomorrow.Follow Me: