JF2160: Second Generation Investor Lessons With Pankaj Sharma

Pankaj is a second-generation multifamily owner and operator with 20 years of experience in real estate. When he was young he was helping his father with properties, cutting grass, painting, and whatever was needed in terms of maintenance. He discusses the biggest deal he has ever done which was 800 units 5 properties. 

Pankaj Sharma Real Estate Background:

  • Second generation multifamily owner/operator with 20 years experience
  • His personal portfolio consists of 2000 units in 5 major cities
  • The host of KarmaKast – and YouTube’s Sharma’s Karma 
  • Based in Spring City, PA
  • Say hi to him at: www.sspropertiesinvestment.com  

 

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Best Ever Tweet:

“Patience, it’s a long term game, it’s not to get rich overnight. Consistency and Patience.” – Pankaj Sharma

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JF2141: Short Term Rental App With Jon Crosby

Jon is the CEO and Founder of Click2Flip, a mobile app to instantly analyze rentals and short term rentals. Jon loves to create streamlined processes that help make his short term rentals pretty much self-automated. He shares all of the automation he has done for friends, clients, and himself to create a smooth process and experience for both him and his guests.

 Jon Crosby Real Estate Background:

  • Founder and CEO of Click2Flip
  • Started investing in 2015
  • Owned and managed 4 short term rentals
  • Limited partner in 2 multi-family LLCs and 1 air medical hanger commercial investment
  • Based in Rockland, California
  • Say hi to him at https://clik2flip.com/
  • Best Ever Book: 

 

Click here for more info on groundbreaker.co

Best Ever Tweet:

“I created the app to quickly instantly give me a high-level return to see if the deal was worth investing in further” – Jon Crosby


TRANSCRIPTION

Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless. This is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast where we only talk about the best advice ever; we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff. With us today, Jon Crosby. How are you doing, Jon?

Jon Crosby: Good. How you doing?

Joe Fairless: I’m doing well, and I’m glad to hear it. A little bit about Jon – he’s the founder and CEO of Clik2Flip, he started investing in 2015 after a company that he worked for ended up being purchased, he owns and manages four short term rentals, he’s a limited partner in two multifamily LLCs and one air medical hangar commercial investment, based in Rocklin, California. With that being said, Jon, do you want to give the Best Ever listeners a little more about your background and your current focus?

Jon Crosby: Yeah, thanks again for having me on the show. It’s an honor to be here. Currently, I, as you mentioned, own Clik2Flip mobile app. It’s a mobile app to instantly analyze flips, rentals and short term rentals. Also, in addition to the real estate investment that you mentioned, I’m also a partner in an assisted living facility project here in the Sacramento area, which has been a bit of on hold at the moment because of what’s going on with the COVID crisis. So my day job is a technology consultant for Fortune 100 companies where I focus on app development management, managing app dev teams, and I did that in my previous career in the company that sold. So I was laid off from that job. It gave me the opportunity to bridge my passions, and I brought technology and real estate passions together with the Clik2Flip app. I created it because I wanted something that was in between the 1% rule and 70% rule, but I didn’t want to have to do full underwriting on all the properties I was looking for. So I created the app to quickly, instantly give me a high-level return to see if a deal was worth investing in further.

Joe Fairless: You said between the 1% and the 70%. Is that 7-0 %? What is the 70% rule?

Jon Crosby: It’s the 1% rule for flippers. So that is yet to be a really good one for the short term rental markets. I’m hoping Clik2Flip can actually help bridge that gap as well.

Joe Fairless: What is a 70% for flippers? Will you educate me? I might have heard of it, but I can’t remember what it is.

Jon Crosby: Yeah, the 70% rule just says that the max allowable offer should be 70% of what you expect the ARV to be, the after repair value.

Joe Fairless: Okay, got it. And then, Best Ever listeners, 1% is taking the rent that you’re getting on a annual basis and dividing that by the all-in cost. Is that right?

Jon Crosby: It’s the monthly rent versus when you purchase, the purchase price of the property in a nutshell.

Joe Fairless: Okay, monthly rent.

Jon Crosby: Back in the day, we were left in– it used to be the 2% rule, but it’s whittled down to the 1% rule, and in California, you’re not going to find any 1% rule.

Joe Fairless: Right. I remember when I had my single-family homes, I only had, at most, at one time, but then I had 3 for five to seven years, however long it was. They were all around 1.3%, which is nice, until someone moved out. Then I don’t know where that percent would have plummeted, but that’s why I’m doing what I’m doing. Let’s talk about you and your short term rentals. Do you currently own four short term rentals?

Jon Crosby: Yes, I liquidated two of them. I have one, and the other one was one that I helped manage with somebody else. So I’m down to one right now. I was trying to liquidate, get some capital for this next round that I was hoping was coming… Because I wanted to expand. I was mostly focused in the Lake Tahoe area. So I wanted to be able to diversify a little bit, but I currently still have the one, that’s doing well… Not right now. It’s turned off up there at the moment, but I believe after this crisis is over, we’ll have quite a bit of pent up demand. So I’m taking the time to do what my other passion is, and that’s creating business automations. So I’ve built a lot of automations into my short term rental models so that literally for any booking, I don’t spend more than 30 seconds.

Joe Fairless: Really?

Jon Crosby: Yeah, I plug it into two spots, and then I have email communications, I have door locks to trigger, I have comms back and forth to my housekeeper setup, and I did bare-bones almost online. I’ve done some pretty complex ones for some friends that included even a signed addendum that once they signed it versus in a DocuSign, it automatically sent their instructions to check-in and can coordinate the door locks. So it can get really sophisticated and I just love doing that stuff. It’s really fun to optimize those processes when I can.

Joe Fairless: Now when you said you spend 30 seconds on each rental, is that literally?

Jon Crosby: I timed it once. It’s more like a minute, maybe a minute and a half and that’s just me plugging it into a calendar, and then the rest happens on the back end. Now don’t get me wrong, if toilets break and somebody doesn’t know how to work a door lock, you’re going to get a phone call. But I’ve easily gone five to six bookings in a stretch without ever even knowing anybody was up there.

Joe Fairless: What were the main timesucks that you automated?

Jon Crosby: One was communication. So notifying guests – going to Tahoe can have some treacherous travel, so I wanted to have consistency so that everyone had the same pre-travel communications. So that helped there as well as just–

Joe Fairless: What did you do? What did you do exactly with that?

Jon Crosby: For that one, I set up an email that goes out the day before their check-in, and it provides them with the information. It provides the links to Caltrans to click this button, make sure you check your travel, any road conditions before you head up the hill. Here’s another link for weather conditions… Just as much info as I could that I had found I was giving them personally before I built this, and I just laid it out in an email template.

Joe Fairless: Okay, and you send it the day before they check in. You don’t send any other automated emails prior to that?

Jon Crosby: No. I do have one company called Evolve that handles the initial booking and payment processing piece that they get an email for. So I take over managing as they approach the check-in time, and so that’s where I’ve focused all that email communication; but I can build it if we didn’t have that piece with its own. I’d do it for the whole process.

Joe Fairless: So is there anything check-in related the day before the check-in that sent that they might be wondering prior to the day before, that they’re asking you about? And I’m thinking of my wife in this example, by the way. We rented a place in Florida and she was reaching out to the host, because my wife had questions about the check-in process and other things, and she was wondering about that weeks before, not a day before check-in. So I’m wondering, to address curious cats like my wife who wanna make sure everything’s set up properly, do you communicate with them before that?

Jon Crosby: Yeah, so they get something 30 days before check-in, that’s a little bit high-level. It has my contact information as well as my wife’s that they would use if they have any questions, and I do [unintelligible [00:10:10].25] things like that that they want to know; should they pack coffee, or things like that. So that we can certainly answer for them; and then on the day of check-in, they also get a full welcome email. Go check the binder on the coffee table, this is where you can have all your information. Here are some of our favorite restaurants… All the stuff that they need to be successful and relax once they get there.

Joe Fairless: So that is one part of the process that you automated, the guest communication, that was taking up a lot of time. What else?

Jon Crosby: The other part was the housekeeping communication. So the housekeepers, as soon as they get a booking, an automated email goes out to them that says, “Hey, Joe Fairless booked May 5th to May 9th, please schedule and reply once you confirm it’s locked in.” So that way, I get confirmation that they got confirmation that they have it in their system, and we’re often running on that part, and then the other part is the automated door locks. So every guest that I have, it’s always their code to get in is the last four digits of the phone number they booked with. So creating that consistency makes the automation much easier to facilitate, as well as the email communication part.

Joe Fairless: Got it? How do you program the lock?

Jon Crosby: There’s two tools. Usually [00:11:29].07] is the actual hardware, and then we can connect it through Nexia, which is a home automation hub. But a newer one that I’m using, I can actually automate totally seamlessly now. Whereas, the Nexia one, I had to actually spend an extra 30 seconds to go plugin. But on this one, I can actually even skip that step, and that’s using the Samsung SmartThings Hub. So that one’s fully dialed in.

Joe Fairless: A rough segue into something that I mentioned at the beginning in your bio – you’re a limited partner in one air medical hangar commercial investment. Please talk to us about that.

Jon Crosby: Yeah, that’s an interesting investment. It’s a friend of mine who’s a commercial real estate broker named Greg Geary, great broker out here in the Sacramento area. He started a niche building out these air hangars that were needed for medical lifeflight helicopters and planes and such and crew quarters. So what he built was this system or, I guess, process, by which they can be built very quickly. He’s partnered with some construction company that allows these to be built very quickly. They’re even mobile to some extent, so that if they want to take it down and move it somewhere else, that’s possible, and then rest of it’s a lease commercial investment type scenario with payouts. There’s cash flow in the lease payments, and then there’s equity buyout after I think seven to ten years.

Joe Fairless: What gave you the confidence to invest in that and how long have you been an investor in it?

Jon Crosby: I’ve been in about six months now. They’ve already spun up their first hangar and lease payments have just started flowing through. So that’s been really positive. I think with most investments, it’s the operator. It’s the person running the investment. Greg, I’ve trusted him, I’ve seen his track record. He was actually part of the real estate team that was part of the company I worked for for 20 years as well. So there was trust, and he just has some great experience and insights in the industry.

Joe Fairless: Let’s talk about your company. Clik2Flip. You mentioned what it does. It initially helps with initial analysis of flips, short term rentals and rentals. I think that’s what you said when I was taking notes. What differentiates it from an online calculator that if I googled quick flip analysis spreadsheet?

Jon Crosby: The difference is, as far as I know, it was the first of its kind to not require any data entry. I built it so you can walk up to a house, geolocate, hit the address and it will go pull all my API data and feed it back in to give you the high-level return cashflow analysis.

Joe Fairless: Wow.

Jon Crosby: Yeah, so some of the magic is in the API. To get even more accurate of a return, you would at least go into your settings one time to just program your particular investment metrics. So things like, if you’re a flipper and you have an average price per square foot for rehab costs, you want to put that in there rather than use the default that it has. Or if you have a property manager that’s only charging you 5% and it defaults to 8%, those are the little things you’ll want to just fine-tune one time, and then every time you analyze a property thereafter, you’ll get that instant analysis.

Joe Fairless: Now, a lot of the times, someone’s not going to be in front of the house, they’re gonna be in front of their computer. So how is it working then?

Jon Crosby: It also has an address lookup.

Joe Fairless: Just punch in the address.

Jon Crosby: Yeah, you just punch in the address, and even it will do — you can even put in parking numbers as well and it’ll pull those down for you. Additionally, we added the ability to view up to 20 local comps for the property, as well as a place for an itemized rehab worksheet if you want to get in that level of detail.

Once again, as I mentioned, it’s not a full underwriting tool, but it’s a tool so that you don’t have to go do a full underwriting on every single property that you’re interested in. You have a smaller subset to go take it to that next level of underwriting.

Joe Fairless: I like that; that is a true differentiator, and you’re clearly positioned as “Hey, this initial analysis and it’s going to save a lot of your time, and then you can go do your more extensive analysis should it check out.”

Jon Crosby: Yeah, and I’m actually excited. I’m adding one more component later this month, and that’s the ability to send a postcard mailer.

Joe Fairless: Wonderful.

Jon Crosby: Yeah. So I think that’ll be a really nice one-two combination. You see a property, you get a really high level “Hey, this looks good. I’m going to go ahead and just send a mailer out right now while I go into due diligence”, and so you can just stay ahead of the competition as much as you can.

Joe Fairless: That’s great. I definitely see a need for it, and the way that helps investors save time and now connect the dots whenever you have the mailer component. What has been the biggest challenge with this app?

Jon Crosby: I think what I learned is double down on your strengths and pay people to do the other things. I tried to do too much. I tried to learn everything I could about marketing, I tried to learn everything I could about UX design, just things that I’m not either passionate about or didn’t even have the time to try and focus on. So I probably wasted more time than I needed to going in and getting help on those pieces.

Joe Fairless: Taking a step back, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?

Jon Crosby: Whatever the pro forma says is never going to come to; it’s never going to be like that. So trust in– do your due diligence on the operator, because that’s going to be where the successes and plan for probably either a six-month delay in whatever payouts you see, or definitely not as quite as the rosy returns that are showing in the pro forma; and if you still want to do that deal and you still think it has a good risk to reward ratio, then go for it.

Joe Fairless: What’s a deal where you’ve lost the most amount of money on?

Jon Crosby: I don’t want to say I’ve lost it, but — I haven’t lost it… I’m in a note deal right now that the principal is due back in January, and that still has come back.

Joe Fairless: Okay. So it’s delayed.

Jon Crosby: It’s delayed.

Joe Fairless: So for everyone listening, that’s about four months from the past.

Jon Crosby: So that kicks into a whole new cycle that– I had confidence that will come through. I actually like those note investments; but I’ll say that my biggest loss has been — and it wasn’t too bad, but it was the assisted living facility I was working within was broken up into a real estate component and the actual business component, and I ended up liquidating the real estate side, which I didn’t want to but I wanted to use those funds to continue my short term investments. So I did take probably from the equity side a 10k-15k hit on that.

Joe Fairless: We’re gonna do a lightning round. Are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?

Jon Crosby: I am.

Joe Fairless: All right, let’s do it. First, a quick word from our Best Ever partners.

 

Break [00:18:12]:06] to [00:18:55]:03]

 

Joe Fairless: What’s the best ever book you’ve recently read?

Jon Crosby: Raising Capital for Real Estate by Hunter Thompson; I had great insights.

Joe Fairless: Best ever deal you’ve done?

Jon Crosby: My first short term rental.

Joe Fairless: What’s a tactical mistake you’ve made on a transaction?

Jon Crosby: Not getting a plumbing inspection; always get a plumbing inspection.

Joe Fairless: What happened?

Jon Crosby: I can’t tell you how many things were going on there, but I had put in an entire hardwood floor only to find out there was a root in the middle of it, had to rip it all out, dig 16 inches through concrete to fix six inches of pipe, and then put the floor bathroom.

Joe Fairless: It sounds like it’s still painful for you to talk about.

Jon Crosby: It is. I’ll never make that mistake again.

Joe Fairless: Well, just to pour a little salt on your wounds, how much total did it cost you?

Jon Crosby: I think it was more ego than anything, but it still costed a good 6-7 grand.

Joe Fairless: How can the Best Ever listeners learn more about what you’re doing?

Jon Crosby: You can check me out at clik2flip.com. I’m also on Facebook, Twitter. You can find me at LinkedIn. Just search for Jon Crosby.

Joe Fairless: Well Jon, thank you for being on the show. Thanks for talking about your business, Clik2Flip. Thanks for talking about different ways you’ve automated your short term rental business model with guest communication, housekeeping communication and the door locks as well as the note deal and how to qualify the operator or really how to qualify a deal. It’s primarily the operator based on what your feedback is, and how to think about it from a limited partner standpoint was your best advice. So thanks for being on the show. Hope you have the best ever day and talk to you again soon.

Jon Crosby: Thanks, Joe. Appreciate it.

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JF2132: 100 Years Of Experience With Dean Marchi

Dean is our sweepstakes winner! If you were not aware, we did a sweepstake for the first time ever for a lucky listener to enter for a chance to be on the show with Theo Hicks and ask questions or discuss their story. Dean was randomly picked and is part of a family with over 100 years of real estate experience. Dean focuses on development deals for multifamily and buyers of apartment buildings. 

 

Dean Marchi Real Estate Background: (SWEEPSTAKES WINNER)

  • Full time in real estate development 
  • His family started in Manhattan in 1929, but Dean bought his first deal outside of the family in 2005 and did his first development deal in 2009
  • Portfolio outside of family properties consists of 4 multifamily properties, 2 development sites, flipped 26 apartments
  • Based in New York City, NY
  • Say hi to him at: www.GrandStreetDevelopment.com 
  • Best Ever Book: Best Ever Apartment Syndication Book 

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Best Ever Tweet:

“Focus on every deal your involved in, build up a track record and people will begin to talk about it and you will find investors” – Dean Marchi


TRANSCRIPTION

Theo Hicks: Hello, Best Ever listeners and welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Theo Hicks and today, we are speaking with our sweepstakes winner. So if you didn’t know, we did a sweepstake where you could enter, all you had to do is subscribe to the newsletter and you have the opportunity to be interviewed on the podcast, and we are speaking with our winner today, his name is Dean Marchi. Dean, how are you doing today?

Dean Marchi: I’m great and I’m very happy to be here.

Theo Hicks: We’re happy to have you and again, congratulations on winning the sweepstakes. Maybe we’ll do it again in the future, so someone listening right now can be in your place in the next few months… But before we get into the conversation with Dean, we’re just gonna do a traditional interview, because Dean does have a strong real estate investing background. He’s full time in real estate development, his family started investing in real estate in Manhattan in 1929, so almost 100 years of experience in his family of real estate investing… But Dean bought his first deal outside of his family in 2005, and then did his first development deal in 2009. His portfolio outside of family properties consists of four multifamily properties, two development sites, and he’s also flipped 26 apartments. He’s currently based in New York City and his website is at grandstreetdevelopment.com. So Dean, do you mind telling us a little bit more about your background and what you’re focused on today?

Dean Marchi: Absolutely. So I really only do two things – I focus on either buying apartment buildings or building apartment buildings. And on the buy side, I’m mainly focused on Class B apartments in Class A or B areas where I see some upside outside of the building itself, and we try to do value add and bring our operational experience to improving them… Just focused on cash flow, and we always pray for appreciation. And on the development side, primarily we focus on what we call infill development in hot neighborhoods. So we’re focused on an area in Philadelphia called Fishtown, which has  a lot of similarities to what we did in Brooklyn, the development deals, the properties that we built there – Williamsburg, Brooklyn and Greenpoint in Brooklyn. We have a particular design, focus and style, but those are more Class A properties, exceptionally well located, and we try to bring a little flair to them; we’ve done well. So we’re regional developers of multifamily and regional buyers of apartment buildings.

Theo Hicks: When you started talking about the building – what did you call them again, infill?

Dean Marchi: Infill development sites. So in cities– so we don’t really do, what I would call, suburban walk-ups. Those we buy, but what we build is more of mid-rise apartment buildings in vibrant cities, whether it’s in Philadelphia, Brooklyn or northern New Jersey, where you can walk out the door, get on a subway, get your coffee, come home, there’s a wine bar or restaurant outside your door, that kind of development.

Theo Hicks: Sure. Okay, so you’ve got four multifamily properties and two development sites. So are those four multifamily properties to buy, and then the two development sites to build?

Dean Marchi: Yes, we’ve sold some that we built, and we’ve obviously sold those flips that you mentioned. There are 26 apartment buildings that we bought after the Great Recession, primarily REOs or short sales from lenders who took them back. We fixed them up and put them back into the market, stabilized them and ended up selling them. But we’ve held on to the rental buildings that we’ve built, and we also bought an existing apartment building, about 186 units outside of Baltimore, a suburban walk up as well. So we own and manage and outside of the family stuff, those buildings as well, ten apartment buildings in Manhattan as well.

Theo Hicks: Perfect. So how are you funding these deals?

Dean Marchi: Friends and family in, what I would call, super high net worth. So obviously on the equity side, we’ve only done one institutional deal; I would say more of an institution as opposed to a high net worth family office or just individuals.

So the first deal we did, I raised a few hundred thousand dollars from my parents, my uncle and my cousin’s girlfriend’s parents. So just very typical, sitting in people’s living rooms, raising a few dollars to get the deal done, and up to and including — quite frankly, there are a couple of billionaires who’ve invested with me, because with some humility, I’d expect my parents to give me a little bit of money if it was a good deal, but think of super high net worth people – they have tons of options, and for them to trust me with their money and like the deals that we do, that gives me a lot of confidence and a great deal of satisfaction.

Theo Hicks: For these billionaire super high net worth people, you did mention family office– are they through family offices or are these individual billionaires who are investing you in real?

Dean Marchi: Individual, yeah. There’s one deal that we did that is a family office that acts like an institution. So they’re so wealthy that they’ve set up a team of people to invest their money on their behalf. The ones that, in the past, have invested with us and continue today are people we’ve known through the years or met through friends and family and others who’ve recommended us and referred us. So it’s a pretty broad mix, to be honest. It’s great; it’s awesome.

Theo Hicks: Do you have any tactics, any tips, any piece of advice for someone who wants to eventually work their way up towards having these super high net worth, billionaire family offices investing in their apartment deals?

Dean Marchi: The best advice that I would give anybody is  focus on every deal that you’re involved in; the more successful the individual deal is, the more people around you are going to hear about it. So you build up that track record and then people start to talk about it, and whether it be the lawyer involved in the deal, or the broker who sold it or leased it up, whatever it may be, and you build a reputation. But it’s deal by deal; I don’t think you can leapfrog it; I think people trust in two things – the track record, and the person. So if you don’t have the track record, maybe one thing to do is to partner with somebody who does, and borrow their track record, if you will. Even if you get a small piece of a deal, it’s better because you’re building the track record, and over time, you can point to that experience. The other is that I think that people really do look to the individual. So if somebody likes you and trust you and you come referred by other people that worked with you in some capacity or another, that is really helpful for people, and quite frankly, I don’t think that changes from somebody investing $50,000 to somebody investing $5 million. I think those are the two things that people care about.

Theo Hicks: Something else you’ve mentioned too, and again, you might have the same answer – the track record and you a person, but you mentioned that these super high net worth people clearly have a lot of people wanting money from them. So obviously, I could have a really strong track record, and I could be a really good person… So did you meet these people just naturally, just word of mouth, eventually you got to them? But I would imagine that happens a lot. A lot of people are doing big deals, but not everyone has these super high net worth people investing, so once you’ve got that massive track record, what are the types of things, at least from your experience, that set your deal apart from, say, someone else who’s done the same number of deals as you, but is not attracting that type of money?

Dean Marchi: That’s a great question.

Theo Hicks: Does that make sense?

Dean Marchi: Yeah, it’s a great question. So I don’t do a ton of deals. As I said, I’ve been at this for a fairly long time and I haven’t done 100 deals. I do think that we are able to find better than average deals, and there’s no secret to that; it’s pounding the pavement; it’s driving the streets; it’s making the phone calls. But yes, we find, I would say better than average deals, but again, I just think it’s that track record, and what we try to do is to act like an institution in the middle market. So what I mean by that is, we like to do mid-size deals. So for example, the last building we built was 52 units. There are people who are putting up 800+ units in the same neighborhood. There are also a ton of people putting up four or five or six  or ten-unit buildings. So we like to be as sophisticated in our reporting and our approach to how we design and the team that we hire as the guy putting up 800 units, and make our deals though – because they don’t require hundreds of millions of dollars of investment – to make a deal available to somebody who has $100,000 or as I said, $5 million to invest.

So as I said, it’s probably true that we don’t really bother doing a deal that is, what I would call, an average deal, and beyond that, it’s just relationship management. It’s just the same thing, just talking to people, making sure they understand we have the same problems with our deals as somebody doing big deals or small deals, or the same kinds of deals. They’re not without issues, and we have had, fortunately, a track record where quite honestly, Theo, in the 90 years that we’ve been in the business, we’ve never even been late on a mortgage payment, and we started in the Great Recession, having gone through the Great Recession and COVID-19 related issues, and we’ve never even been late on a mortgage payment. So when I say it’s deal by deal, collectively over time you ended up with a track record of good performance, and we don’t oversell. Thank God, we’ve never lost money on a deal. All of our deals have performed at least as well, if not better than our pro forma. So people trust in that. And I always tell people, any deal that we’re going to do, eventually, something’s going to go wrong. We can’t keep it going forever. But I give them my solemn promise that I will treat their money more seriously than my own, and no matter what comes up, I will have at least three solutions for it. We’ll choose the best one at the time with all the information that we have, and try to make right. So people appreciate that and give us their money. So yeah, that’s it. It’s not that complicated, I guess.

Theo Hicks: That’s certainly perfect advice. Alright, Dean, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?

Dean Marchi: Well, I think there’s three things that I would say. Number one is buy apartment buildings… And not to be over simplistic about it, but Theo, what I would tell you is the first human being who decided to walk out from under the open sky and into a cave found that that was probably better than being out in the open, and I will say that if one day, human beings are living on Mars, I suspect that they’ll want a roof over their head. So it’s one of those essential needs, and I think you can’t go wrong with it… Subject to number two, which is not to use too much debt. I’ve seen people lose buildings, I know people who’ve lost their buildings when events beyond their control, such as the Great Recession or other events – it’s because they took too much debt. So there was a time before the Great Recession where you could buy an apartment building with no money down, all debt. So I would say, be cautious about taking on too much debt.

And then the third bit of advice would be to really think about holding it for the long term. That’s where you have really the greatest return. If I tell you what my grandfather paid for his first Manhattan building and what it’s worth today, it would spin people’s heads, but hold it for as long as you can, and I guess a little bonus bit of advice is try to get with people like you, quite frankly. Learned from your awesome book; wherever you can get with people who have experience in whatever you’re going to do, whether it’s real estate or anything else, that’s a goldmine that quite frankly, I think too many people overlook. Those are my three bits.

Theo Hicks: Perfect. Alright Dean, you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?

Dean Marchi: Sure, yeah. Let’s go.

Theo Hicks: Okay. First a quick word from our sponsor.

Break [00:15:01]:08] to [00:15:50]:04]

Theo Hicks: Okay, I’m gonna do the normal question, but I do have one question that I would like you to answer as quickly as possible, but I’ll get to that one in a second. So first, what is the best ever book you’ve recently read?

Dean Marchi: So without sounding like because I’m on your show, but certainly I would include in that answer The Best Ever Apartment Syndication Book by you and Joe. And one that’s overlooked, if you don’t mind my saying more than one, is Powerhouse Principles by a man, a hero of mine, Jorge Perez. He’s the CEO of Related Group in Florida. It’s development focused, but there’s a ton of good advice in that book. And then the Steve Berges book, The Complete Guide to Buying and Selling Apartment Buildings; those are three favorites.

Theo Hicks: If your business were to collapse today, what would you do next?

Dean Marchi: I would go and do exactly what I have always done. I would go and talk to everybody that I know and start over and do exactly what I’ve been doing for my life. Wouldn’t change a thing, just start over.

Theo Hicks: So the next question I want to ask you – I don’t know exactly how to ask this, but you hear stories all the time of how the one generation makes all the money, and then the next generation maintains it, and then the next one loses all of it…

Dean Marchi: Yes, 100%. I know exactly, yeah.

Theo Hicks: Yeah, you’ve got your grandfather who started the business, your parents are in the business, you’re in the business, all of you guys are successful… So what’s been the main thing that you can think of that has allowed your family to do that and not fall into the cliché trap that I just mentioned?

Dean Marchi: Wow, Theo. Awesome question. Honestly, my whole life, I don’t think anybody ever asked me that, and I think that the immediate answer is that one thing that’s really important to all of us throughout all three generations is that core family. It’s exactly what you said, it’s a business, but first was the family. So my grandfather passed along a lot of really strong Italian principles, if you will, which is where my family is from. Through my father– my father always taught me those lessons and I teach those lessons to my children. And the way I approach the business is that I am giving it and I am preparing what I do to be handed off to the next generation. So we build with incredible quality, we approach everything very honest with our tenants, we really try to honor them and to treat them well, so that when it goes to the next generation, if God Willing it happens, that the buildings, the business is well prepared for that transfer. And of course, I try to pass along every bit of advice that I gather from people like you and others and from my own experiences on to my children and make sure that they understand that they now have the responsibility when that handoff occurs, that they have the responsibility to prepare it for the next generation as well.

And always to remain humble, I think that’s the other thing. Nobody’s bigger than the market; that’s really important too. The way you phrased the question, that oftentimes the son screws it up, if you will, or the daughter goes and blows the business up… I think if you have some humility with what you’ve been given and a sense of responsibility to pass it off, you perhaps avoid some of that hubris that can lead to a business collapse.

Theo Hicks: Perfect. Great answer. I’m surprised no one’s asked that before. I had [unintelligible [00:19:06].25] but I forgot.

Dean Marchi: No, that’s awesome. I appreciate it very much.

Theo Hicks: Okay. And then lastly, what’s the best place to reach you?

Dean Marchi: Probably our website, which is grandstreetdevelopment.com. But my email is dean [at] grandstreetdevelopment.com, or we also have an Instagram page, which is @GrandStDevelopment; those would be the best ways to get me.

Theo Hicks: Perfect. Alright Dean, I really appreciate you coming on the show today. I learned a ton from this conversation. Some of the key takeaways that I got – number one, you talked about some tactics for being able to attract that money from the billionaires, the super high net worth people, the family offices, and at the end of the day, it really just comes down to, as you mentioned, the two things, which is the track record you have and then you as a person. So it’s just focusing as much attention as possible on every single deal to make sure that it is as successful as possible… Because then, once you’re successful, people start talking about you, you start building up a reputation, and it’s a snowball effect where eventually people know, like and trust you enough… And you’ve been referred enough times that you’re able to reach those higher echelons of investors. So you said it’s step by step; there’s really no hack or shortcut or cheat. It’s just going deal by deal and making sure each deal is as successful as possible.

A couple other things you mentioned too, that have helped your track record is, you said you act like an institution in a middle market. So you bring the institutional quality, the reporting and the relationship management; rather than focusing on these thousand unit deals, you do the middle 50-unit deals. Or you mentioned, you got very sophisticated reporting, and then for your family business, in the 90 years of business, you’ve never been late in the mortgage payment, never lost investors money on a deal, have always at least met the proformas… And then I really liked what you said is that you told them that if any issue were to arise, you always come back to them with at least three solutions, and one of those will obviously be used to fix the problem.

We talked about your best ever advice, which is threefold – number one, buy apartment buildings; housing homes are always going to be an essential need. I was just doing a syndication school episode today where they did a survey and asked people, “What’s your priority for paying expenses?” and above groceries, above car payments, above utilities was paying rent. So I could definitely reinforce that. Next was don’t use too much debt, and then thirdly was to think about holding for the long term, because that’s where you realize the greatest returns. And then you also talked about what sets your family apart from other family businesses – the cliché of the grandparent creates it, the dad maintains it and then the son destroys it. You said that it’s really about passing along strong values, and then I really like what you said, which is preparing to hand off the business to the next generation.

So not really taking any shortcuts to make money for yourself now that will screw over your kids in 30 years. Instead, you’re using good quality construction, you’re always focusing on having good relationships with your residents and the people you work with, and then passing along any advice that you get, but also included in that advice is letting your children know or the next generation know that, hey, you need to be prepared to pass it on to the next generation as well. So preparing them early on for that next-level transition… And then just being humble, as you mentioned, as well; no one is bigger than the market.

So again, Dean, I really appreciate you coming on the show. I learned a lot; glad you were our sweepstakes winner. Best Ever listeners, as always, thank you for listening. Have a best ever day and we’ll talk to you tomorrow.

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JF2118: Broad Experience With Alix Kogan

Alix is the President of Ashland Capital Fund and has 20 years of real estate experience owning 1,700 apartment units, single-family rentals, commercial and developments. He started in high-end custom homes and more recently has been focusing on student housing deals. Alix shares one of his new strategies which is investing in second lien mortgage debts.

Alix Kogan Real Estate Background:

  • President of Ashland Capital Fund
  • 20 years of real estate experience
  • The portfolio consists of 1,700 apartment units, single-family rentals, commercial and developments
  • From Chicago, IL
  • Say hi to him at:https://ashlandcapitalfund.com/ 

 

 

 

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Best Ever Tweet:

“My broad experience in real estate has helped me tackle new projects” – Alix Kogan


TRANSCRIPTION

Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless. This is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast where we only talk about the best advice ever; we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff. With us today, Alix Kogan. How you doing Alix?

Alix Kogan: I’m great, Joe. How are you?

Joe Fairless: Well, I’m doing well, and I’m glad to hear that. A little bit about Alix – he’s the president of Ashland Capital Fund, he’s got 20 years of real estate experience, the portfolio consists of 1,700 apartment units, single-family rentals, commercial and developments. He’s based in Chicago, Illinois, and he has now turned his focus towards student housing. So we’re going to talk about his background, what his focus has been, and then what his focus is now. So with that being said, Alix, do you want to first, give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and what you’re focused on now?

Alix Kogan: Sure. So I started in high-end design build, building custom homes for clients in south-west Colorado, ran that business for almost 20 years and I had a successful exit late last year in December. So pretty recent, but I have a parallel track for a good 18, 17 years or so. I started developing a single family portfolio, did some ground-up development, townhomes, condos, small subdivisions, and then as of three years ago or so, pivoted into multifamily, and that is, of course, how you and I met, and I’ve been doing that.

I’ve been partnering with groups as a key principal, lending out my balance sheet, and let’s see– distressed debt is another asset class I invest in, and then as of late, I’ve been pursuing some student housing deals; I’m excited about that opportunity as it’s not tied directly to the market’s economy as much as multifamily is. So it’s just another asset class to diversify for me.

Joe Fairless: When you said you were doing development for townhomes and condos, what are some differences from that versus the high-end custom homes?

Alix Kogan: It’s really completely different. The high-end custom homes, we always build on client’s land, there’s really no risk per se. It’s really — we’re working for a fee. So transitioning into development is a whole other world. Of course, it’s still a construction, but you’re assessing risk, you’re assessing the market. So really, it took a completely different mindset and skillset candidly to do that; the common thread, of course – we’re building. So it was interesting; it was good, and we rode the tailwinds of a great economy up until, of course, the recession of ’08, ’09. Then we ceased all development activity and concentrated on custom homes and rode through the recession. Well, a lot of our clientele actually came from Texas, and that market was doing very well. A lot of our clients were already the tail end of their careers that made their money, they put their money away, so they were still on a place to retire and build their retirement dream homes, and continue down that path and not be too affected by the recession.

Joe Fairless: You said you’re now focused on looking at student housing. What are some things you’re doing now in student housing?

Alix Kogan: We’re pursuing a couple of different deals currently. It’s a similar play, I suppose, to multifamily. What I like about it is in recessionary periods, like we’re likely heading into now with everything that’s going on, a lot of people go back to school, or they stay in school longer. So you’ve got that natural protection, as opposed to say A class multifamily where I think, where you could have some higher economic occupancy with that asset class — but student housing is an interesting plan. So we’re pursuing that. There’s some opportunities out there, there’s some groups that got over-leveraged, and looking to get out of their assets. So it’s an interesting time. So that’s what we’re– no, I wouldn’t say we’re completely focused on that. It’s just a second asset class in addition to multifamily that we’re looking at.

Joe Fairless: How are you coming across groups that are over-leveraged? Where are you getting those connections from?

Alix Kogan: We’ve made a great connection with a best-in-class property manager, and they of course, have connections with owners all over. They’re also an investor, as well as a property manager as well. So they are an interesting group where they understand the investments side as well as the management side, and they have a very specific buy box for a number of reasons with their business plan. But they’re running into portfolios or individual assets that don’t meet their buy box, and I’ve developed a good relationship with them where they’re bringing me those deals, so it’s a win-win. They get to property manage the asset if we are successful in taking it down. So there’s some good synergies in that relationship.

Joe Fairless: So I’ve never bought a student housing project. Educate me and perhaps some listeners on what would be a buy box. What components are in a buy box for student housing, and then what your buy box is compared to, say, the property management companies?

Alix Kogan: Sure. So the first one would be pretty easy to answer. So the relationship that I have there, they only buy core A Class assets, and they have to be pretty significant size to execute their business plan and to comply with their investors’ buy box, in essence. So in terms of what I look for, I can buy a smaller deal. I don’t have a specific buy box in terms of has to be a large deal, although I can take down a large deal; we’ll look at — for example, right now we’re looking at an opportunity about the $7 million acquisition range. That is considered somewhat small for some of the large players. They’re going to be in that 15+ million acquisition range.

In terms of what we look for, and that’s fairly consistent from whether you’re buying large or small, you’re looking for a successful school with growing enrollment, and that’s pretty key today to be successful. I think, that’s one of the biggest metrics. So not only does the asset have to be a good asset, you’ve got a school that’s got a great sports program; so tier one schools. So you look at that, you look at the asset itself, you look at similar dynamics; you’re of course looking at your rent comps, are you under market, amenities is also a big factor in terms of your rent growth and where you are in the market. So those are some of the big things that we look at.

Joe Fairless: Based on your experience with high-end custom homes and townhomes and condos and investing in multifamily, what do you think, from that experience, is most relevant to help you be successful in student housing?

Alix Kogan: I would say I’ve been fortunate that I’ve had a broad experience in different asset classes, and the common thread is real estate. So I don’t know that there’s one thing other than I may just have a broader view, I may look at different things. So I can’t think one major skill set other than just the broad experience.

Joe Fairless: Let’s narrow it down then. For the high-end custom homes that you did for 20 years and you said you exited successfully, what were some ways that your company differentiated itself from your competitors?

Alix Kogan: That one’s pretty easy – we were very early to the game in design build. So while a lot of my competitors were typical, what we call bid build, where they’re bidding on plans through architects or through clients directly, that have plans drawn… We adopted the design build model right out of the gates 20 years ago, where at first, we partnered with some outside resources. We’d outsource some of the design work, but really controlled the whole process from design to build, and then eventually became much more fully integrated with architects, interior designers. So that was certainly a key to our success.

In addition, of course, doing great design and won more awards than anybody in the area in south-west Colorado, and organically grew. Building a great team – no surprise, when you become the largest in the area, you need a great team behind you. So I was fortunate to have a great team to do that with. But those were some of the — great design, great team and the design build model that many people tried to follow, but fewer successful in doing it.

Joe Fairless: You mentioned distressed debt. What have you done with distressed debt?

Alix Kogan: That’s been an interesting space. I started down that road with non-performing notes. So buying defaulted mortgages in large pools and then working them out. So I’ve been doing more of a niche portion of the distressed debt, which is buying non-performing second liens. So rather than buying first liens, which– it’s a bit counterintuitive, but if you understand my business plan and the plan that we’ve been doing, which is buying non-performing seconds behind a performing first.

So I’ll give you an example. If you have a $500,000 house, you might have a $400,000 mortgage of $100,000 worth of equity, and then you also took out, say, a $100,000 home equity loan to finish your basement. You fell on hard times, you stopped paying in your home equity, but you continued to pay in your first mortgage. So those are what I’m buying as the second mortgages.

I like them because, obviously, it’s been demonstrated that the borrower still has some financial capacity because they’re paying on their first; and because I’m buying the second lien, the non-performing lien or note, at such a discount, I have the ability to go back to the borrower and help them stay in their house and say, for example, “You’ve been paying, $500 a month before you defaulted. Can you afford to pay $250 a month?” So because I’m buying at such a discount, I can work with them, help them stay in their home and get them current, and that’s been a really good investment class. It’s not the easiest business to learn, a pretty high barrier to entry, but once you get it dialed in, it’s a very interesting business model.

Joe Fairless: What discount are you buying those second liens on?

Alix Kogan: It’s a broad range. It also depends on what state. Every state’s got different foreclosure laws and timelines. So I would say anywhere from 5% of the unpaid balance up to 50% of the unpaid balance, and everything in between. So you literally have to underwrite each individual asset separately. How much equity does it have? How nice of a property is it? Because that, in essence, is your ultimate security; it’s that asset. Because you can, of course, foreclose from a second position subject to the first.

And then there’s more of a qualitative analysis of the borrower profile. You really have to understand who the borrower is, look at their credit, look at their specific situation, and somewhat assess what is the percentage that that borrower can do work out with you. So that goes into the pricing as well, of course.

Joe Fairless: So you said 5% to 50% that you’re paying. So just so I’m understanding correctly, depending on the state, depending on the situation, if it’s $100, you’re paying between $5 to $50 for that second lien position.

Alix Kogan: Yeah.

Joe Fairless: Wow. So your discount is between 50% and 95%?

Alix Kogan: Yeah. I’ve bought some assets where there’s a lot of risks, and  I’ve even bought them at 1%.

Joe Fairless: Alright. Give us that example, that specific example. Tell us a story about that property.

Alix Kogan: Something that you bid that low, there is no equity.

Joe Fairless: How much you pay for it?

Alix Kogan: So that borrower is completely upside down. So that’s one of those that you’re likely not going to pursue. You might take that asset, put it on the shelf and just wait until that borrower sells the house, and you may be in a position where you get a payoff. So that’s obviously very high risk; but if you have $100,000 unpaid balance and it’s still secure and you’re buying it for $1000 bucks, you can afford to just stick that in a drawer and just wait… Versus other loans that have equity, and the borrower is obviously more motivated to protect and keep that equity. They’re obviously motivated to do a workout with you. So those you’re going to pursue more aggressively, and spend time placing that with a servicer, or spending money investing in whatever legal you need to invest in, so that you could monetize that loan.

Joe Fairless: I know you said you’re buying large pools. So are the large pools of these defaulted mortgages, are they grouped into varying risk profiles, or…?

Alix Kogan: No, no. They generally are just sold in a pool. So you get a spreadsheet with a bunch of assets, and it’s really — you’re doing your own group and you’re assessing the risk and you’re saying, “Okay, 20% of these are in a judicial state, New York, for example, and the foreclosure time is very lengthy and expensive.” So I’m going to price that portion of the pool at whatever it is. 20 cents on the dollar versus, say, for example, California loans, which is a non-judicial state, and very quick foreclosure time. I may price those at 45 cents. So it’s all over the board.

Joe Fairless: Did you say California is quick to–

Alix Kogan: Yeah, believe it or not…

Joe Fairless: That– I would have missed that on a true-false test.

Alix Kogan: Right, exactly. With all the legislation and everything that happens in California, it actually is a non-judicial state. So you can foreclose and get at the asset in 90 to 120 days. So it’s a much faster process in California.

Joe Fairless: Tell us a story of a defaulted mortgage, either a pool of mortgages or an example or two where you’ve lost money.

Alix Kogan: Sure. I had a recent loan that– and fortunately, we were pretty careful. I don’t buy really high-risk loans, but in order to buy a pool of loans, apparently, you have to buy some loans that are higher risk; but I try to keep those at a minimum. So I only honestly have one that was recent; a Kentucky loan that basically foreclosed and we got wiped out by the first lien and completely lost. It was a $7,000 investment, [unintelligible [00:17:37].26] a million dollars that we took down. So that can happen, but if you’re careful, that’s pretty rare.

Joe Fairless: Yeah. So how can you be careful and make that rare if you’re buying a large pool of loans, and it sounds like that’s just gonna happen during the course of business?

Alix Kogan: Well, one, they’re gonna price them at a risk price. So it’s all modeled into it. Think of it as you’re buying a portfolio of single-family homes, you know you’re going to have some delinquencies in one home. Somebody stops paying rent, but you have the income from the other homes to offset that. It’s really the same principle. I’m going to make money, I’m going to hit home runs on some. I mean, I’ve had some that I’ve made 200% return on my investment, and then I have one that I lose $7,000 on. So you just price the risk into it, and then there’s some people that specialize in unsecured and no equity loans. It’s just their business model. So I would even resell some of those loans, and just get my money back and focus on the good loans that I prefer to work.

Joe Fairless: Okay. Tell us the story of, on the flip side, one that you’ve made 200% on or just done really well, just a specific example.

Alix Kogan: Sure. Just recently I invested $113,000 in an asset in California. The house is worth $270,000. We, unfortunately, had to foreclose, got that house back, and up until just a couple days ago, I had a contract for $270,000. So you can do the math on that. That would have been a great exit strategy. Unfortunately, with what’s going on in the world right now, that buyer fell out of contract.

So we’ve got the house, it’s worth $270,000. I can turn it into a rental. I’m hopefully going to sell it to somebody else, but you can see the return is huge if I can obviously monetize, which I’m sure I will… And that whole timeframe was about seven, eight months.  Okay. So let’s talk about the team. I don’t think you’re the one tracking down all these owners and having conversations based on what I know about you… So who’s your team? How do you structure it? How are they compensated, that sort of thing? Sure. I’m on the acquisition side, so I’m developing relationships and finding the assets. Once I find the assets, I have an asset manager in California that works remotely. He’s got 30 years experience in servicing the distressed debt space.

Joe Fairless: How’d you find that person?

Alix Kogan: Just the whole networking, talking to different people, and I met him, and that’s been a great relationship. So he’s literally working out of his house.

Joe Fairless: If you can think back to who introduced you to him, I’d love to know exactly how you found him. You don’t have to name names, but just throw us the breadcrumbs.

Alix Kogan: I think the trail started on LinkedIn or I connected with somebody on LinkedIn, and they had pointed me in his direction for just networking, and that he may know sellers, and one thing led to another, where you think you’re going to buy an asset or get some referrals for sellers, and before you know it, you’re talking to a guy who actually is an asset manager that may have excess time and be able to develop a relationship. So that’s what we did.

It started off as — for him, I was somewhat of a side hustle in addition to other asset management work that he was doing, and as my portfolio grew, he’s come on board nearly full time with a little bit of consulting that he still does with outside funds and outside investors.

Joe Fairless: Wow. So you were randomly reaching out to people on LinkedIn based on what they have in their profile, asking them about distressed debt?

Alix Kogan: Yeah, specifically targeting sellers of distressed assets at that time, and just happened to run it across the guy. So there’s multiple ways that you can do this, and you also, of course — to answer your question fully in terms of the team, there’s also third-party servicers that we use. So they’ll do some of the work, and then my asset manager will serve an oversight with them as well as borrower outreach and talking to the borrowers as well. So it’s really a small team, a small little boutique firm, if you will, in that asset class, and I’m soft capitalized, I don’t have investors in that world. So it’s really a third bucket of my business plan – student housing, multifamily and distressed debt.

Joe Fairless: Based on your experience as a real estate investor, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?

Alix Kogan: Learn the asset class well. It seems very obvious, but in terms of investing in different assets, learn that asset class well before you invest. Then if you have an opportunity to invest passively, learn as you go. I think that’s a great way, and you’re a prime example. I invested with you early on and got my feet wet in multifamily until I got comfortable enough to start looking at my own deals, and I think that’s a great way. And that’s also what I did with distressed debt. I invested passively in a more of a joint venture with a guy when I first started and learned the business, and then of course, the natural progression – I felt that I could do it on my own, and hire an employee that knows more than I do, and that’s just the way you scale and grow.

Joe Fairless: That’s a pretty good formula for people – invest passively to learn the ropes, plus build your ally group up so you can form allegiances, and then you learn the business simultaneously as well as actively learning, then go active and then hire someone who has more experience than you. But now you’ve got some experience and you know the ropes, you just don’t know the intricacies of someone who’s been in the business for decades. That’s a really good formula. I’m glad that you walked us through that. We’re gonna do a lightning round. You ready for the best ever lightning round?

Alix Kogan: I guess.

Joe Fairless: All right. Well, we’re gonna do it anyway. So hopefully you are. First though, a quick word from our Best Ever partners.

Break: [00:23:39]:05] to [00:24:34]:03]

Joe Fairless: Alright, what’s the best ever book you’ve recently read?

Alix Kogan: A book name Lifescale, which is interesting; a book that I’m halfway through.

Joe Fairless: Okay, Lifescale. Okay, got it. What’s a mistake you’ve made on a transaction?

Alix Kogan: Bad partner. Easy to say in the rearview mirror. He looked good on the front end, but I think more due diligence on the partner than the asset class is important. I got myself in trouble a few years ago with — and fortunately, we unwound that well, but… More due diligence on the partner than the asset.

Joe Fairless: What are some questions knowing what you know now that you would ask prior to engaging in a future partnership?

Alix Kogan: I think it’s more time getting to know someone, really as much as you can learning how they think, definitely more reference checks… But I think it’s time, and unfortunately, we’re in a business that moves pretty fast, whether it’s notes or multifamily or student housing – the deal comes up and it comes to you from a potential partner. So I’ve learned to slow down and only move forward when it feels right and I have enough of a comfort level with a partner. So as you know, I’m a KP on deals and people bring me deals all the time, and I really have to just slow that process down to get to know them better.

Joe Fairless: On that note, how can the Best Ever listeners learn more about what you’re doing and get in contact with you?

Alix Kogan: Ashlandcapitalfund.com is my website, and my direct email is alix [at] ashlandcapitalfund.com

Joe Fairless: Alix, thanks for being on the show talking about your areas of focus that you’ve had, and then now what you’re focused on, the three areas, with one of them being student housing and why you’re focused on that; you also talked about non-performing notes in your process there. Thanks for being on the show. I hope you have a best ever day. Talk to you again soon.

Alix Kogan: Thanks, Joe. Take care.

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JF2117: Big Renovation Projects With Joseph Bramante

Joseph is the co-founder and CEO of TriArc Real Estate Partners. He purchased his first multifamily property in the US in 2011 sight unseen and now his portfolio consists of 1100 units. He shares his story on how he started out buying a 26-unit apartment complex and almost went bankrupt during his first deal and he ended up making a 207% return on the refi. 

Joseph Bramante Real Estate Background:

  • Co-founder and CEO of TriArc Real Estate Partners
  • Purchased first multifamily property in the US in 2011 sight unseen
  • Current portfolio consists of 1100 units, increasing net operating income by over 80% on average within 48 months post-acquisition
  • Based in Houston, TX
  • Say hi to him at: https://www.triarcrep.com/ 
  • Best Ever Book: Raising the Bar

 

 

 

 

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Best Ever Tweet:

“The books give you this 30,000 view of the industry but its a completely different ball game when you are out there in the field executing” – Joseph Bramante


TRANSCRIPTION

Theo Hicks: Hello Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. My name is Theo Hicks, and today we’ll be speaking with Joseph Bramante. Joseph, how you doing today?

Joseph Bramante: Hey, man. I’m doing well. How about yourself?

Theo Hicks: I’m doing well too. Thanks for asking and thanks for joining us on the show today. A little bit about Joseph – he is the co-founder and CEO of TriArc Real Estate Partners, purchased his first multifamily property in the US in 2011 sight unseen; current portfolio consists of 1100 units, and they focus on increasing net operating income by over 80% on average within 48 months post-acquisition. He is based in Houston, Texas, and you can say hi to him at triarcrep.com. So Joseph, do you mind telling us a little bit more about your background and what you’re focused on today?

Joseph Bramante: Sure. So I’m an engineer by trade, spent the first five years of my career with Exxon, as well as overseas when I bought that first property; I’ve lived in some pretty cool places. I was in Australia for a year and then Papua New Guinea for two years. I was working on a $22 billion project, of which a billion was the cost that I was managing directly. I got into the industry in 2011, purchased that first property sight unseen. I originally was trying to buy 80 foreclosed houses, and then after all these banks kept telling me no, they finally said, “Just go buy an 80-unit apartment complex,” but I couldn’t afford a 80-unit apartment complex, but I could afford a 26. So that’s how I jumped into the industry with the first 26-unit property, and almost went bankrupt on that first deal and turned the whole thing around by performing a $30,000 per door renovation… Which was really nuts considering one, that was my first deal and two, it’s a large rehab. In general, most people don’t even do those big of rehabs, let alone, on their first deal. And I turned the whole thing around, made a 207% return on the re-fi. I still own it today. We’re actually talking with architects right now, getting ready to scrape it and redevelop it to a mid-rise. So that property is going to be paying us three and four times what we made on it.

So that was the start, and then through that, I met my current two partners. We formed TriArc Real Estate Partners; originally the foundation of the company was back in 2013, but then rebranded in 2016 as TriArc, and our MO has just been these big value-adds. Started with the first one at $30,000, added 22 and 18, and we’re currently doing a $37,000 per door renovation over 220 units. So we really mastered that, and that’s how we were able to produce such big NOI growth in the first 48 months, like you quoted, because we’re doing these big rehabs on our deals. We’re not just doing base hits, because that’s just– one, that was what was available. You guys know, back in 2012 and 2013, there was a lot of property to renovate. Now it’s harder and harder to find those deals. People know how to resurface and whatnot by now, so it’s very rare you’re going to find something that hasn’t been through at least one or if not two renovations about the time you’re getting it. So we’ve transitioned more into the lower value-add, which is fine. If you’re really good at doing big rehabs, you’re gonna be even better at doing smaller rehabs.

So from there, we further expanded in 2016 into new development. So I saw that the spread between new construction and renovated assets was shrinking, and it was only a matter of time before new development was gonna make more sense than buying existing and renovating. So we started exploring that area and we’ve got our first 500-unit two-phase project, garden style; we’re breaking ground on later this year, and then we’ve also got two other new developments that are in the pre-planning phase. They’re gonna be mid-rises; one’s nine stories, the other is 12 stories, Class A plus properties. So it’s been interesting.

New development’s certainly, completely different than acquisition, in that there’s really no roadmap for it. It’s very much an open book, and it’s hard to find mentors and whatnot for it, and we’ve had to figure a lot of this stuff out on our own, but finally, three, four years into it, we’ve really gotten the right people around us who’ve done this before and helped us… And that’s what really real estate, in general, is all about. It’s all about the network, having good people around you, who’ve been through different components of whatever you’re trying to do, and forming teams. And that’s how, really, we formed our company. I’m a co-founder, I’m one of three, and that’s been really advantageous for us, because it gives investors and lenders a lot of confidence knowing that between the three of us, we’ve owned or operated over 43,000 units and 1.7 billion in assets in the last 30 years. So we have that history behind us, so that when we’re going forward, while our company is still growing, we do have quite a deep bench of experience.

Theo Hicks: Thanks for sharing your entire story there. I want to dive in and unpack a few though. So one thing that you said, the first thing you said that piqued my interest is that on that first deal you bought sight unseen was a 26 unit property, that you did the 30k per door renovation, and then resulted in a 207% return on the refinance. So that was the first deal right?

Joseph Bramante: Right.

Theo Hicks: So you said that you did the 30k in renovations, and then now you’re looking to go back and put in even more money into that deal, to bring it up to another level. So do you mind just walking us through– so was the original business plan to take it from C to a B, and now you’re going from a B to an A? Did you know going in that, that is what you’re going to do or that’s something that evolved later on, based off of the market that the deal was in? So maybe walk us through that thought process a little bit.

Joseph Bramante: Sure. So the original plan – it left a lot to be decided. There really was no plan. It was my first deal. The broker had said that it needs $3,000 per door in renovation, so that’s what we budgeted for. And then we get into the deal, and it’s a really long story, but just to keep it short – within the first six months of owning it, our property had gotten down to 85% occupied. We had four units down for renovation that we had taken sheetrock down on, we were renovating, we were installing central ACs, and then as part of the permitting process for that, we had to do an environmental, because we were idiots and we didn’t do one on the closing like every other one of your listeners knows to do, and of course, it came back hot for asbestos.

So we’re six months in, four units down, we have asbestos, we’ve had fraudulent insurance… The broker that sold us insurance – well, he sold us insurance from a company that was a fraud. So we don’t have insurance, we’re going into hurricane season, and then I lose my job at Exxon on top of all that. So it was really a very dire situation I was in, and I joined a local real estate group because that’s what you did back in 2012; there were no podcasts or anything like that… And all the mentors of that group were like, “You’re screwed. Sell the property, take a loss, lesson learned; don’t do that again.” But that didn’t really sit well with me, for a couple of reasons. One, I would have to lost five years of my life at Exxon, and that would have not been good. I’d have done all that work for nothing. And then two, I would have had a negative track record to go and raise money for. So that would have meant I had no career in multifamily either. So that was also not good. So I rolled the dice on that first one.

Me and my business partner who I had met out of that group, she had done large renovations before for other owners. She was a property manager, and she said, “Look, you’re in a great location.” That was the one thing that I did right. Two, actually. Location, and we knew it needed new roofs, because that’s what the PCA said. So those are the only two things I’d give us credit for. But location is everything; everybody knows the real estate motto – location, location, location. So we were in a prime location in Houston, and we’re surrounded by these million-dollar homes. So we did this massive renovation, went all in. I cashed out my 401k, took the penalty, all in. I stayed unemployed for six months and just focused on the real estate, took a bunch of courses, and we executed this rehab, and it was the craziest moment of my life, because our rehab was $700,000, the purchase price was $650,000. So it was just insane to think of, you’re doing a rehab that’s greater than the purchase price of this property.

We had to vacate the whole property down to zero, because it’s really not a good look to have guys in hazmat suits walking around while you’re doing an asbestos abatement with residents on site. You’re just asking for a lawsuit. So we vacate the property, we did the abatement, came in behind them, we did the big renovation, then leased it all up, and that was probably the most stressful nine months in my life, and it worked. We doubled the rents, we leased it up, stabilized it, refinanced it… And it’s just an amazing feeling on that first refi when you get that money back, because until you’ve actually done it, it’s all just stories and theories and whatnot for you, and when it was proved positive for me, that’s when I knew I had a new career interest, and that was multifamily. So that was our first deal, and then that was supposed to be the end of it. The plan was to hold it and maybe sell to a developer. That was our thinking in 2014, because we knew we were on prime real estate; and then in 2016, 2017, we started developing the skills to be developers, and now, here we are in 2020, we’re working with some of the top architects in town to scrape our entire complex. So just bulldoze the whole thing and come up with a mid-rise design and raise all new equity for it etc, and expand it to include not only our site, but the neighboring sites around us on our block. We’re going to do a JV with them to all partner together and do this mid-rise construction.

Theo Hicks: I’m really glad that you shared that six to nine months journey that you went through. Just one last follow up question on that deal and then I want to transition to the other thing we talked about, which is increasing net operating income by over 80%. So it was a $700,000 rehab – all that came out of your pocket?

Joseph Bramante: It was me and one of the partners. So we were 50-50 partners on the deal and we financed the rehab, so we had a bridge loan.

Theo Hicks: Okay. So you cashed out your 401k and used that as a down payment for bridging back on the rehab? Okay.

Joseph Bramante: Exactly. The first time I didn’t though. The first time, I was paying cash for the rehab, because I didn’t know any better. My education in real estate at that time was I read about six books on multifamily, and some of the good ones… David Lindahl is always on your list. Multifamily Millions, that was one of the books I read, and a couple others… And they give you this 30,000 foot level understanding of the industry, but it’s a completely different ballgame when you’re on the field and you’re out there executing in your specific market.

Theo Hicks: Perfect. Okay, so let’s transition into your bread and butter business plan now, which is increasing the net operating income by over 80% on average within 48 months. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you can’t just pick any deal to do this on. So obviously, the front end is making sure you’re selecting the right deal. So you already mentioned location, so we don’t need to talk about that again. Is there anything else that you have? What’s your checklist when you’re looking at a deal or a piece of land, so that you know going in that you’re going to be able to increase the net operating income by high double digits?

Joseph Bramante: For us, we’re really just focused on doubling our investors’ money over five years. We keep it simple, we target a high single digits cash-on-cash and double their money in five years; and for the most part, we’ve been very successful at that.

Now, part of the reason we’re at 80% is because we’ve had some really big deals. We’ve had about three or four big deals that have really skewed those results. We just closed on a 2015 construction about a year ago, and it’s more of a base hit deal. We’re exiting right at about a 2x multiple, but we’re not increasing NOI by 80%. Also part of that, just to be honest, is because I was buying smaller deals. So when you’re buying smaller deals in the beginning, it’s very easy to magnify and grow that NOI by a very large number, because that’s just how the math works. It’s the percentage and denominator factor.

So as I was buying these large deals like that first deal we did, I think we increased NOI by 400%. It was something stupid, because there’s 26 units, and the guy was really mismanaging it really badly, and we more than doubled the rent. So it had just a stupendous growth to the NOI there. But then of course, eventually what happens on all value adds is eventually the taxes catch up with you, which we’re just now, six years later, dealing with that effect. But to your point though, we’re not targeting 80% NOI growth. It’s just something that happened on its own, because we have big deals. Our targets for deals are high teens IRR, 2x multiple and high single digits cash on cash five year holds.

Theo Hicks: Perfect. So what you’re doing is you’re finding these deals, you’re putting them through an underwriting model and you’re finding what the purchase price is that results in that return, and then if the purchase price makes sense, you offer, if not, you pass.

Joseph Bramante: Yeah. And I would say the only difference between us in regards to why we’ve had some of the big home runs is because we’ve positioned ourselves in our market as the guys that buy the big hairy deals. So the one we’re doing right now, which is $37,000 per door across 220 units on the rehab, that came straight to us. We were the first people to see that deal, because the brokers already know that we do these deals, and if anybody’s going to do a big hairy lift like that, we would be the ones to do it.

Theo Hicks: This goes back to your first deal, or this could be just in general… How do you find the right contractor for these $30,000 plus per door renovations?

Joseph Bramante: Well, I’d say we’re a bit unique in that we’ve got construction in house; that’s as of January of this year. But we’ve been through two or three GCs, and unfortunately, it’s a lot of recommendations, a lot of tried and tested and just going through the motions. So you’ve got to hire these guys, try them out and really hold their feet to the fire on deals. But my background’s with Exxon with project management, so we had a little bit of a leg up on managing GCs and contractors, because that’s what I did for a living for five years. So for us going into these deals, you’ve got a big primary GC, then you might have a couple of other subs below doing other stuff that you feel like you can handle yourself and do it directly, and you don’t want to deal with their markup. So we’re going to have a detailed contract for the primary contractor, whereas the other guys might just be a PO or something like that.

So it’s really all about what you put up in the contract, setting expectations, putting a schedule, putting good terms in and developing a relationship with GCs. So we’ve been through, as I mentioned — I think our current GC we’ve hired is our third GC; they don’t all work out. My first two, they were great people, I have nothing against them, but they just have different price points, different quality levels… And it’s not necessarily the GC. I think what people need to understand about a GC is they’re more of staff contractors than construction guys, because all they’re really doing is they’re managing all the subcontractors. They’re not physically doing the work. Some of them might have their own crews, but they’re supplementing their crews depending on the size of the project with additional subcontractors. So if you’re getting bad work on a deal, it may not be the GC’s fault, it may just be that the sub that he hired did a bad job.

Theo Hicks: Okay, really quickly, how did you start raising money for deals? Was that after that first 26 unit deal?

Joseph Bramante: Yeah. After that first 26 unit deal, I had a pretty solid track record at that time. I was one for one and my first setback was a home run, at the ending. I mean, during the play, it looked like I was about to fall on my face pretty badly, but after that first deal is when I really started raising capital quite heavily, and started targeting these big value-adds.

The other thing I would say, just as a side note, is that doing a big value-add, once you’ve done one, especially on my first one, very few things scare you. And so I think a lot of what– the hesitation is for people to do value adds is that it’s scary. There’s a lot of unknowns, a lot of risk, a lot of things can happen, but once you’ve gone through it a couple of times, you get used to and are more comfortable with that risk, and you know how to respond in real-time to what’s happening; then you’re not as afraid of doing it. I think that’s probably, just my guess on why people don’t do as many big value adds, because they say they’re risky. But the reality is, in some ways, this big rehab we’re doing is actually less risky than a smaller rehab, because we’ve got so much money behind us on the rehab that any little nuance things that we discover have very little impact to us because of how much weight or how much money we’re spending on per unit basis; it’s easily absorbed by the GC.

Theo Hicks: Okay, Joseph, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?

Joseph Bramante: My best advice would be patience. I think there’s so many people who want this really quickly, they want to grow… And we’re only just over 1000 units, 1100 units, which isn’t really that big, to be honest. There’s some guys with these monster portfolios, and we’re more of a small to medium guy, to be honest. But that’s okay, we’re going at our own pace, and we’re doing deals that we feel comfortable with, and I feel like a lot of people – they’re rushing, they’re trying to get in quick and build these massive portfolios quickly, and the danger is, if you’re a syndicator trying to do that, that you’re growing and learning along the way. So if you quickly buy a bunch of deals when you’re still learning, then there’s a risk that you’re going to buy a bunch of deals and make the same mistake on those same several deals, versus just the progressive nature and maturing of you as an investor by taking your time, that if you bought those same deals over a five year period, by the time you’re [unintelligible [00:21:04].15] comes around, you’re buying that last deal, you’re underwriting and your execution on that deal is going to be significantly better than it is on the first deal.

So I think that’s the huge risk that people run into, and if you’re a passive, and you’re doing the same thing, trying to grow very quickly and deploy a whole bunch of capital, I think you run the risk of one, picking bad deals to go into, and two, you miss some market cycles. I think one of the benefits that people have is by– like right now, if you had dumped all your money last year, you would have been in a really bad spot, versus if you would paced yourself and done your investments over a couple year timeline, then you would have been taking advantage of potentially some really good deals that are about to hit the market.

Theo Hicks: Perfect, okay. Are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?

Joseph Bramante: Let’s do it.

Theo Hicks: Alright. First, a quick word from our sponsor.

Break: [00:21:51]:03] to [00:22:46]:05]

Theo Hicks: Okay, Joseph, what is the best ever book you’ve recently read?

Joseph Bramante: The best ever book I’m actually currently reading is a book called Raising The Bar by Gerald Hines. Hines Development is one of the top developers in the country. Gerald Hines is 95 years old. He started the company himself back in the 50’s, and he’s based here in Houston, his office is up in Williams Tower, which is right next to my house, and I hope to one day, get him to sign my book… But it’s just really inspiring to see his whole biography and his story and how he started and growing his company, which has 100 billion AUM; it’s just absolutely incredible. He’s strictly done development his whole life, and he’s an engineer like myself, so I gravitate towards that side of it as well… But it has been a really cool book to read, because I like to read books about great people who’ve done great things in my industry.

Theo Hicks: What is the best ever way you like to give back?

Joseph Bramante: So I’m a member of Rotary, it’s a business charity group. It’s one of the oldest charities I believe, or it has some significance in regards to that fact. It’s been around for a while. But I like Rotary because it allows me to give back in a variety of ways, both with my money and with my time, and the cause that goes back is always a different cause. We do a lot with housing, but we also do a lot with schools and helping kids and various other initiatives; it’s great. I’m a busy person and I don’t necessarily have time to do a lot of the research, so Rotary does a great job of vetting a lot of the charities beforehand, allowing us to give and know that it’s going to a good cause, and then also, like I said, get involved with our time and really get hands-on, which is really something special.

Theo Hicks: And then lastly, what is the best ever place to reach you?

Joseph Bramante: The best place to reach me would be on LinkedIn. I’m on there, I’m pretty active on LinkedIn. The other way is, just send an email to info [at] triaarcrep.com and it would eventually make its way to me. But LinkedIn, if you want to get directly in touch with me is the best way. And if you do reach out to me on LinkedIn, let me know that you heard me on this show and I’d be glad to hear from you.

Theo Hicks: Perfect, Joseph. I really appreciate you coming on the show today and sharing your best ever advice, but I think what’s gonna resonate with people the most is you telling a story about buying your first property sight unseen. So you bought that 26-unit building; the original plan was, like you said, that there really wasn’t a plan at first. You were just modeling what the broker said, which is 3k per units in renovations, and then six months in, you had four units down that you were renovating and found asbestos once you did an environmental on it, and then you had some fraudulent insurance, and on top of that you’d lost your job.

So you joined a local real estate group, and it sounds like people there were telling you to just sell the property and take a loss, but you realized that not only would you have lost all the money you had saved up from your job, but you would have that negative track record. You [unintelligible [00:25:38].20] for one and would have a hard time raising money after that. So you met someone at that actual meetup who ended up being your business partner, who specialized in those large renovations, and told you that you’ve got a great location and that you could do a large rehab project and turn the property around. So you cashed out your 401k, got a bridge loan and did the $700,000 rehab, even though the purchase price was $650,000.

You vacated the entire property, and after the rehab, you were able to double those rents and refinanced, pulled some money out. You also mentioned, what sparked this whole conversation – now the plan is actually knocking the entire thing down and develop a brand new property because of the location. I really appreciate you sharing that story.

And then you also mentioned a few things about how you’re identifying deals. So you gave us your return targets, and that you really just positioned yourself in the market as being the team that does these big deals, and so brokers actually bring these deals to you, which was just very beneficial. You gave us some tips on finding the right contractors; obviously, you’re doing an in-house now, but it really just comes down to just getting in contact with a few recommendations and just testing them out, holding their feet to the fire, making sure you’re setting proper expectations with the contract and setting a schedule, but at the end of the day, it’s really just trying it and seeing how they do. And you mentioned how you’ve gone through a few contractors. Then lastly, you gave your best ever advice, which I really like – just to be patient. So again, Joseph, I really appreciate you coming on the show. Best Ever listeners, as always, thanks for listening. Have a best ever day and we’ll talk to you tomorrow.

Joseph Bramante: Thanks, Theo.

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This website, including the podcasts and other content herein, are made available by Joesta PF LLC solely for informational purposes. The information, statements, comments, views and opinions expressed in this website do not constitute and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC are providing or undertaking to provide any financial, economic, legal, accounting, tax or other advice in or by virtue of this website. The information, statements, comments, views and opinions provided in this website are general in nature, and such information, statements, comments, views and opinions are not intended to be and should not be construed as the provision of investment advice by Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC to that listener or generally, and do not result in any listener being considered a client or customer of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC.

The information, statements, comments, views, and opinions expressed or provided in this website (including by speakers who are not officers, employees, or agents of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC) are not necessarily those of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC, and may not be current. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC make any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any of the information, statements, comments, views or opinions contained in this website, and any liability therefor (including in respect of direct, indirect or consequential loss or damage of any kind whatsoever) is expressly disclaimed. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC undertake any obligation whatsoever to provide any form of update, amendment, change or correction to any of the information, statements, comments, views or opinions set forth in this podcast.

No part of this podcast may, without Joesta PF LLC’s prior written consent, be reproduced, redistributed, published, copied or duplicated in any form, by any means.

Joe Fairless serves as director of investor relations with Ashcroft Capital, a real estate investment firm. Ashcroft Capital is not affiliated with Joesta PF LLC or this website, and is not responsible for any of the content herein.

Oral Disclaimer

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are provided for informational purposes only, and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. For more information, go to www.bestevershow.com.

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JF2111: Going From Duplex to 89-Units With Brock Mogensen

Brock is 2 years into real estate and essentially started after seeing his dad owning 2 duplexes and how it can help with your income. His first deal was a house hack on a duplex and afterward, he saw the potential and took off running. Now he has a portfolio consisting of an 89-unit apartment, 20,000 sq ft of retail space, and 18,000 sq ft office space. 

Brock Mogensen  Real Estate Background:

  • Principal at Smart Asset Capital
  • Portfolio: 89 unit apartment, 20,000 sq ft of retail space, and 18,000 sq ft office space
  • Investing in real estate for 2 years
  • Located in Milwaukee, WI
  • Say hi to him at: www.smartassetcapital.com 

 

 

Click here for more info on groundbreaker.co

Best Ever Tweet:

“Partner with people that lack your strong suit and vice versa because I think those are the best partnerships where each can complement each other” – Brock Mogensen


TRANSCRIPTION

Theo Hicks: Hello, Best Ever listeners, and welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. My name is Theo Hicks, and today we’ll be speaking with Brock Mogensen. Brock, how are you doing today?

Brock Mogensen: I’m doing great. How are you doing, Theo?

Theo Hicks: I’m doing great as well, thanks for asking and thank you for joining us. Looking forward to our conversation. A little bit about Brock – he is a principal at Smart Asset Capital. He has 22,000 sqft. of retail space and 18,000 sqft. of office space. He’s been investing in real estate for two years, is located in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and you can say hi to him at SmartAssetCapital.com. Brock, do you mind telling us a little bit more about your background and what you’re focused on today?

Brock Mogensen: Absolutely. I’m about two years into real estate, so somewhat new compared to the more seasoned people… But essentially, in a nutshell, I got into real estate after seeing my dad having on two duplexes. So on a smaller scale, he owned that and I just saw what it can do for your income. So I knew right away, as soon as I got to college, I’d save some money up, buy a duplex, and get going. So I did that about two years ago, I saved some money, bought a duplex, house-hacked it. After I did that, it really just opened up my eyes, like “Wow, there is massive potential in this space.” And from there, I kind of spent some time on “Which route do I wanna take? Do I wanna do the wholesale thing? Just accumulate a portfolio of single-family and duplexes? Do I wanna flip houses?” And I ultimately ended up on syndication.

From there, I kind of spent 6-7 months just really learning it, paying for courses, going to the events, reading books, podcasts, all of it… And just kind of spent some time really learning it. Specifically, I focused on the underwriting side. I come from an analytical background, so that’s where I thought I could provide the most value. So I spent some time learning that.

From there, once it came time where I felt confident, I kind of realized I don’t have the background, I don’t have the net worth, I don’t have any of it to be able to go out and buy these larger deals. So I did some networking, and ended up finding two partners that do have the experience and everything needed to get into it… Through the component of underwriting, the analytical side of real estate I went in where they lacked their knowledge in, and we created Smart Asset Capital.

After that duplex – it was about 6-7 months after that, where we ended up getting this 89-unit deal under contract, closed that… So that’s about a year ago now. Then from there I just kind of saw, based on — you kind of heard that I have some retail, and office in our portfolio… We kind of just came across those opportunities, and they made sense. Multifamily still remains to be our core, but we kind of took advantage of those situations, and now we kind of have different asset classes and are willing to pivot where we see right opportunities.

Theo Hicks: So you went from the duplex as your first deal, and then decided to scale up… And the next deal about 6-7 months later was a 89-unit deal, and you did it with two partners. Let’s go step-by-step and let’s focus on the partners first. How did you find them, and then how did that conversation go? Either they convinced you to come on board, or you convinced them to come on board and partner up…?

Brock Mogensen: Finding the partners was actually through Bigger Pockets. I’m just always on there, messaging people, networking… I had been meeting up with one of my partners a few times for coffee, and at the beginning stage we were always talking “We wanna go big”, and we were talking about it… And through those six months we kind of both had the same vision, and we were like “Well, we have the same idea. Let’s partner.” So us two partnered.

Then we came across the 89-unit deal and we realized we might be biting off more than we can handle. He had another buddy that already had a big portfolio, has a full property management in-house, the whole thing. So it was like “Let’s bring him on.” We did, and that’s what created the three partners in Smart Asset Capital that tackled that 89-unit deal.

I think that my first partner I had already kind of convinced, but the one that brought the experience to allow us to do that deal – I definitely had to do some convincing, because obviously I have a duplex, I don’t have a lot of cash in the bank to be able to get on the GP right away… My convincing came through the aspect of my corporate background and what I’ve kind of studied so far.

I consider myself strong in the side of reporting, underwriting, and then [unintelligible [00:07:13].18] most stuff that takes place behind the computer is what I like doing. So I handle all investor reporting, all that stuff. They saw the value in that, where they didn’t necessarily wanna do that side of it, or that wasn’t their strong suit, and they kind of saw the value in bringing me on. So that’s kind of where I found myself getting on the GP.

Theo Hicks: Okay, perfect. So there’s three people on the GP. It sounds like you focused on the upfront underwriting, and then the ongoing — I guess, in part, asset management, and investor relations…?

Brock Mogensen: Correct, yeah.

Theo Hicks: Okay. What do the two other partners do, and then could you tell us a GP breakdown? What percentages did you get, what percentages did the other two get?

Brock Mogensen: I’d say they both are definitely more heavy on sales. They both come from the sales background, so obviously that goes hand in hand with having a bigger investor database. That’s definitely where they’re strong. But I think different than a lot of other syndicators – we all intertwine our roles, we all put a hand in on asset management… Although I handle most of the reporting and KPIs on a weekly basis, we all kind of lend a hand there.

So I won’t say we have specific, defined roles and they don’t cross paths, but yeah, as far as their strong suits, they’re more on the sales side, and they’re able to bring in investors better than me. But yeah, I think that’s really what I’ve found, and I tell people – partner with people that lack your strong suit, and vice-versa, because I think those are the best partnerships, where you can each complement what others lack.

Theo Hicks: And how did you decide who got what percentage of the GP?

Brock Mogensen: We split it a third, a third, and a third. It was just real basic. We didn’t really [unintelligible [00:08:42].08] each other on that. We just split it 33.3% each.

Theo Hicks: Perfect. Do you mind telling us what your normal day-to-day is like as an asset manager? I think not many people focus on talking about that, so maybe getting in the nitty-gritty details… When you wake up on a Monday, and then you go to bed on Friday, what do you do in-between, work-wise?

Brock Mogensen: Yeah, great question. I agree, not many people talk about the asset management. That’s one of the most important things, I’ve come to learn. I think really on a weekly basis — we have a weekly call with our property manager on Monday night, and every Monday morning I put together an extensive KPI report, where we pull all of our information off AppFolio – pretty much everything you can think of that you wanna track on a weekly basis.

We recently hired a virtual assistant. Previously, I was handling creating that report every Monday. It only takes an hour or so to put together, if that… So I’ve kind of trained our virtual assistant and handed that off to him, so he runs that report every Monday morning, and it hits our inbox. We’re able to see all the KPIs.

And then on a weekly basis, what I will do is I will keep a running Word document each week… And as I’m always in AppFolio – every other day, pretty much, looking at the numbers, and going through there… And I’ll just keep notes throughout the weekly basis, like “Oh, this and this… I wanna ask our property manager about this.” And I’ll create an agenda. So throughout the week I’ll just tally up some notes, Sunday I put it together in a nice format, drop it in a Google box, our VA attaches that in the weekly Monday morning email, so right then and there on our Monday night call we go off of that email. We have our KPI report we’re reviewing, plus that agenda, and that’ll go through every topic that we need to talk about. From there I’ll take notes, and then just kind of ever-evolve and keeping that agenda going.

Theo Hicks: Are you doing this full-time, or do you have another job?

Brock Mogensen: I do have a full-time W-2 in marketing… So yeah, balancing both – it’s possible. I think it requires a lot of work. To my benefit, I’m a single man, no family, so I have more free time than most people… But I think that’s a lot of people’s limiting belief – I don’t have time/I have a full-time job.

When I got started – I’m working a full-time corporate job; at the time I was finishing up my MBA, so I was taking three classes at once for that… And I closed that 89-unit deal, all at the same time. So it’s possible. I think people that say “I don’t have time to do it” are just making excuses. If you really wanna do it and you’re set on it, you’ll make time to get it done.

Theo Hicks: Do you have a plan of what point you’d be able to quit that job, or do you plan on just continuing to work and doing this part-time?

Brock Mogensen: I go back and forth on it. I do have a cashflow goal; I think I kind of laid that out, what I wanna hit to be able to support my expenses and my lifestyle… So I think once I hit that goal, then I’ll kind of make the decision. But for now, I do alright. My corporate job – I’m able to have both streams of income coming in. It definitely helps to have that second stream… So I don’t have a definite plan as of right now. I think one day it is the goal, absolutely, but I think right now I’m just kind of taking it step by step and seeing how it goes… And if I can balance doing both right now, why not have two sources of income?

Theo Hicks: Perfect. Do you mind telling us more about that 89-unit deal? You and your first partner found the deal… Can you tell us how you’ve found it, and then what you bought it for, and what the business plan was?

Brock Mogensen: We found that one on LoopNet, actually. I actually saw it first come through off-market, from a broker; so it was from a broker. And we kind of had our eye on it; the price wasn’t right for us, and I kind of kept my eye on it. 4-5 months later I see it pop up on LoopNet. We stay in touch with the broker, we  were emailing him saying “Oh, what’s going on with this deal?” It happens to be that it fell out of contracts, and we kind of saw that opportunity. We were like “Let’s put an offer in at the price that makes sense for us.” We did, the seller was over it and wanted to just get rid of it, so we ended up picking it up for a discounted price, just purely from following up with that broker, knowing that it was under contract, but you never know what happens… So we did that.

We ended up picking it up for 3.55 million… So yeah, 89 units, in the Milwaukee, Wisconsin area, C-class. The value-add we saw on that — it wasn’t a huge value-add. Essentially, what we saw was expenses were ran super-high… So having the in-house property management has allowed us to not bring it down by a huge amount, but by a certain percentage point that over the long term we saw it as a value-add play.

Theo Hicks: And then what about the capital for that deal? Out of a four million dollar purchase price, how much money did you raise and then where did that money come from?

Brock Mogensen: Our total raise on that was 830k. We did agency debt on that. That was purely raised through private equity, mostly through my partners’ connections. We each raised a portion of it, and then we also bought 10% on the LP side, just because it kind of aligns our interests when we’re talking to investors. I’m personally putting an x amount of dollars into this deal, so I have vested interest, not just our free equity, you could say. So that’s essentially how we did it.

Theo Hicks: How much of that did you raise?

Brock Mogensen: Not much. Under 100k. It was around there.

Theo Hicks: Who did you raise that from?

Brock Mogensen: Just existing relationships. People I’ve met throughout the past few years at meetups, and stuff, a few family friends… So not necessarily a large amount of the raise, but my partner brought most of his connections for that.

Theo Hicks: Okay… So you got 89-unit deal, and then you’ve got 20,000 of retail space, 18,000 of office space… Is that one building, multiple buildings?

Brock Mogensen: Two different buildings. Those were both bought in the past couple months, and those were kind of just bought through my partner’s relationships. He has  a full-fledged brokership as well, so he was able to source those deals off-market, direct to owner.

Theo Hicks: How was the asset management different on the apartment versus the retail and the office space?

Brock Mogensen: The KPIs are gonna switch up a little bit. None of us are experts in either of those spaces, but we’re learning a lot around structures. We have triple net leases; that’s a great part of it that we were able to bake in, and we’re also learning more about how that works operationally.

The asset management – we’re doing the same structure, with weekly reports, weekly calls… But I think it’s still kind of ongoing, learning more about  both of those spaces. We just kind of saw an opportunity to pivot when cap rates are so low in the multifamily space. There’s obviously great deals out there; we actually have another one under contract right now… But I think we just kind of pivoted and saw a good opportunity there, against the risk, so we pulled the trigger on both of those.

Theo Hicks: Alright, Brock, what is your best real estate investing advice ever?

Brock Mogensen: I’d go back to just — if you have your mind set on wanting to get into syndication… I know there’s people who think you can’t do it, you have to have experience, you have to have this… I think my story kind of just goes to show that if you wanna do it, you can make it happen. I always tell people, the best way to do it, and just kind of going off of how I did it, is find one aspect of syndication — there’s many different aspects… Find one aspect of it and become an expert in it. Spend a lot of time just becoming an expert in that aspect, and then you’re gonna have to find partners if you don’t have the experience. Do like I did, find partners that lack that component, and just [unintelligible [00:15:15].24]

Theo Hicks: Alrighty. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?

Brock Mogensen: I am.

Theo Hicks: Alright. First, a quick word from our sponsor.

Break: [00:15:26].10] to [00:16:18].15]

Theo Hicks: Okay, Brock, what is the best ever book you’ve recently read?

Brock Mogensen: I think the best one I’ve recently read — I’m reading “Trump Style Negotiations” right now. That one’s pretty good. It’s all about his attorney and different real estate deals he’s done, and how he’s negotiated them.

Theo Hicks: If your business were to collapse today, what would you do next?

Brock Mogensen: What I’d do, and what we’d kind of go in, especially going in the timing right now going in, we keep strong reserves, so I always make sure to have enough reserves on-hand to cover any uncertainty… So a big component is making sure you have the reserves in the bank to cover stuff.

Theo Hicks: What is the best ever way you like to give back?

Brock Mogensen: Right now it’s through education. I’m always available to get on a call with people that are looking to get into syndication. Any time people wanna ask question about it or are looking to get into it, I’m always willing to make time for that. In the future I do have bigger goals of giving back monetarily, but until I get to that point, that’s the way I’m giving back.

Theo Hicks: Okay, I’m gonna make this one up on the fly, and it’s gonna be about asset management… So what’s the one component of asset management that you think is the most neglected?

Brock Mogensen: Incorporating data. When it comes to asset management, the most important thing to me is data. You have to be able to first have the tools to access that data. That’s usually through a property management software. So if you’re hiring a property manager, make sure they have a system in place to where you wanna see real-time data, and then being able to take that data and incorporate it into models that display in real time your KPIs. That’s why I’ve kind of developed a KPI template on my website, actually, that people can access if they wanted to. But yeah, just being able to track on a real-time basis I think is the most important part.

Theo Hicks: Perfect. And that is at smartassetcapital.com?

Brock Mogensen: Correct, yeah. At that website you’ll see at the Education tab I have a few different eBook downloads, and that asset management template there for people to download.

Theo Hicks: Perfect. And then lastly, what is the best ever place to reach you?

Brock Mogensen: Through the website. That will prompt me to get an alert. Otherwise, my email is brock [at] smartassetcapital.com. I’m happy to talk to anyone.

Theo Hicks: Best Ever listeners, definitely take advantage of that one, whenever someone provides their personal email address. Brock, thank you for joining us today. You are a testament to the fact that you not only don’t need a lot of experience to get into syndication, but you can also do it while having a full-time job. I think those were the two biggest takeaways that I think the best ever listeners will get from this conversation.

Just to summarize our conversation – we talked about how you got into real estate because your dad actually owned two duplexes, and you saw what it could do for your income. So you got your first deal through a house-hack, so a great way to get into real estate is through house-hacking a duplex, which is owner-occupying it. You ended up moving on to syndication about 6-7 months later, after a bunch of education… And this goes into your best ever advice, because you focus specifically on underwriting. So find something about syndication that you can become an expert on, focus on that.

Then you found two partners that had a lot of experience but were lacking underwriting. So find your area of expertise, and find partners who lack that area of expertise. Then you talked about how you’ve met your two partners, how you met the first one on Bigger Pockets, and then you met him for coffee… Classic Bigger Pockets is reaching out to people and meeting them for coffee and finding a business partner or some sort of opportunity out of that, so I’d love to hear that. Both came across the 89-unit deal and decided to bring on a third partner, who had the experience with doing deals in the past. They had sales experience, they could also bring on the investors… And then you talked about how the GP is split a third each way.

You talked about what your week is like as an asset manager… So weekly call with the property management company every Monday night, you do your Monday morning KPI report, which is created by a full-time VA, and during the week you have a running Word document that you use to keep notes, with questions, to create an agenda for that call. Then we went into specifics about your 89-unit deal, the importance of continuing to follow up with brokers on deals that aren’t necessarily able to secure upfront. Then we talked about how the asset management is a little bit different for retail and office. You use the same structure, but the KPIs are different.

Brock, thanks again for joining us today. Best Ever listeners, thank you as always for listening. Have a best ever day, and we will talk to you tomorrow.

Brock Mogensen: Thanks, Theo.

Website disclaimer

This website, including the podcasts and other content herein, are made available by Joesta PF LLC solely for informational purposes. The information, statements, comments, views and opinions expressed in this website do not constitute and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC are providing or undertaking to provide any financial, economic, legal, accounting, tax or other advice in or by virtue of this website. The information, statements, comments, views and opinions provided in this website are general in nature, and such information, statements, comments, views and opinions are not intended to be and should not be construed as the provision of investment advice by Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC to that listener or generally, and do not result in any listener being considered a client or customer of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC.

The information, statements, comments, views, and opinions expressed or provided in this website (including by speakers who are not officers, employees, or agents of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC) are not necessarily those of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC, and may not be current. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC make any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any of the information, statements, comments, views or opinions contained in this website, and any liability therefor (including in respect of direct, indirect or consequential loss or damage of any kind whatsoever) is expressly disclaimed. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC undertake any obligation whatsoever to provide any form of update, amendment, change or correction to any of the information, statements, comments, views or opinions set forth in this podcast.

No part of this podcast may, without Joesta PF LLC’s prior written consent, be reproduced, redistributed, published, copied or duplicated in any form, by any means.

Joe Fairless serves as director of investor relations with Ashcroft Capital, a real estate investment firm. Ashcroft Capital is not affiliated with Joesta PF LLC or this website, and is not responsible for any of the content herein.

Oral Disclaimer

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are provided for informational purposes only, and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. For more information, go to www.bestevershow.com.

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JF2104: Financial Samurai With Sam Dogen

Sam Dogen is the founder of Financial Samurai and has been providing content to the world through his free blogs and articles around topics that will help you with your financial literacy and goals. He Has also been in the real estate investing experience for 17 years and shares some of his experiences with this and his personal journey.

 

Sam Dogen Real Estate Background:

  • Founder of Financial Samurai
  • Has 17 years of real estate investing experience
  • Owns multiple properties in San Francisco, Honolulu, and Lake Tahoe
  • Commercial real estate portfolio consists of 15 properties
  • Based in San Francisco, CA
  • Say hi to him at: https://www.financialsamurai.com/ 
  • Best Ever Book: Thinking in Bets

 

 

 

 

Click here for more info on groundbreaker.co

 

Best Ever Tweet:

“I love the green marble theory.” – Sam Dogen


TRANSCRIPTION

Theo Hicks: Hello, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Theo Hicks, and today we’re speaking with Sam Dogen. Sam, how are you doing today?

Sam Dogen: Good. How are you?

Theo Hicks: I’m doing great, and thanks for joining us. A little bit about Sam – he is the founder of Financial Samurai. He has 17 years of real estate investing experience, owns multiple properties in San Francisco, Honolulu and Lake Tahoe; he has a commercial real estate portfolio consisting of 15 properties. He’s based in San Francisco, California, and you can say hi to him at his website, FinancialSamurai.com.

Sam, do you mind telling us a little bit more about your background and what you’re focused on today?

Sam Dogen: Sure. I actually grew up overseas, all across Asia and in Africa, because my parents were in the U.S. Foreign Service. I came to high school in the United States, and then I went to college at William & Mary in Virginia. Then I went to work on Wall Street in 1999. So I worked in finance, mainly international equities from 1999 to 2012, and in 2012 I decided to negotiate a severance and get out of there… Because after the global financial crisis in 2008-2009 it just wasn’t fun working in finance anymore. We were always the bad guys, even if we had nothing to do with the housing market.

Again, I was in international equities, specifically Asian equities, and it just didn’t feel good to work in that field anymore. Also, the pay wasn’t commensurate with the performance anymore. You could have done really well with your clients, generate a lot of business, but you wouldn’t have gotten paid commensurately, because Wall Street finance was busy subsidizing a lot of money-losing departments. So I decided “You know what – it’s been a good career.” Originally, I wanted to work until I was 40, but instead I left the industry when I was 34, and I decided to travel, spend more time with my wife, and focus on FinancialSamurai.com, which is a personal finance site I started during the depths of the previous financial crisis, in July 2009.

Theo Hicks: So Financial Samurai is like a blog where you post personal finance advice… Does that tie into real estate? Is your advice for people to go out there and buy real estate, or is it dependent on their personal situation?

Sam Dogen: FinancialSamurai.com is a personal finance site. I talk about everything from investing in stocks, to real estate, to early retirement, to career, to negotiating your layoff, to family finances, insurance and so forth. So I try to cover every aspect of what someone would think about in their lives. And money really touches upon all of us.

Real estate is about 40% of my net worth, and is something that I’ve been doing since 2003, in San Francisco… And real estate is my favorite asset class to build wealth, because it’s a tangible asset, it generates income; it’s pretty sticky on the way down during tough times, and you get to benefit from the upside, and it provides utility.  What an amazing asset class to be able to enjoy it, to provide shelter for your family, experience great memories, and maybe even make some money in real estate. So real estate has been my favorite asset class to build wealth.

Second has been stocks. I was in the stock market, in that business for 13 years. However, I think my favorite after stocks is online real estate, so owning web properties such as FinancialSamurai.com.

Theo Hicks: Nice, I never thought of it like that, online real estate; I like that terminology. Okay, so you have 15 commercial properties… Is that your entire portfolio? Are those the ones that are in San Francisco, Honolulu and Lake Tahoe?

Sam Dogen: No, the property that I owned in San Francisco, Honolulu and Lake Tahoe are physical real estate properties that I’ve bought, and that I enjoy, and I use, and I rent out, and I’m an active landlord there. And regarding my commercial real estate portfolio, it’s essentially through real estate crowdfunding, where after I sold one of my main San Francisco rental properties in 2017, because I wanted to simplify life and diversify out of San Francisco, I basically invested in a fund that had 17 commercial real estate investments, and two have exited, and there’s still 15 left.

So my thesis was to diversify across the heartland of America, because back then I was thinking to myself “Well, the cap rates are so low in San Francisco…” We’re talking 2% – 3% cap rates… And it’s just so expensive here, and I have so many investments already that I needed to diversify.

So with the proceeds that I got from the sale, I decided to diversify across the nation, and the thesis was that work from home would be more and more prevalent, telecommuting, people would be able to go to lower parts of the country to still earn a similar amount of income, but save a lot on costs. And with the lockdowns and the global pandemic I think that trend is definitely accelerating, and I’m excited to see what happens next.

Theo Hicks: How did the returns from that fund you invest in compare to your rental properties?

Sam Dogen: In San Francisco real estate has been going up; at least since 2012 it’s been a bull market. Real estate is about 80% to 100%, and now it’s probably plateauing right now… So San Francisco real estate probably increases by 6% to 7% a year. It has been. And that’s been pretty good. Obviously, let’s say with 20% down, so you have leverage… So a 6% return times five, that’s 30% return on your cash… So that’s great. But it slowed down in 2018, and 2019 was kind of “Meh…” and it started picking back up at the end of 2019. In early 2020 it was pretty good, until everything started getting locked down. So now everything’s in a wait and see mode.

In terms of commercial real estate, since about 2015-2016 when I started investing – because I invested before; I’d sold my main San Francisco rental property in 2017 – the returns have been around anywhere from 12% to 16% a year, which is great, especially if you don’t have to manage the property. And that’s one of the things that I like about investing in these properties – because it’s 100% passive income; you’ve got a professional manager there, you’ve got the lawyers and all those people doing the stuff, and  you just collect income and then you have to file the taxes.

Now, in 2020, things have obviously changed a lot due to lockdowns. So I will have some losses on properties that are in the hospitality space. For example a hotel. Surely, that property’s gonna be going down in value because nobody’s going at the hotel. It’s like an airport hotel, a Sheraton in Dallas. But the portfolio is 15 properties, so I’m assuming there’s gonna be some losses, but overall I think it’s gonna do well. If we can rebound and get out of this lockdown phase sooner rather than later, hopefully third quarter of 2020, I’m optimistic that things will get back on course.

Theo Hicks: Just to confirm – that fund of 15 properties, you’re getting 12% to 16% per year?

Sam Dogen: Yeah.

Theo Hicks: Wow. How did you find that fund?

Sam Dogen: Well, there’s a lot of real estate crowdfunding platforms. Financial Samurai is a relatively large website; it’s got about one million visitors a month organically… So there’s a lot of opportunity; you just have to go wade through a lot of opportunity. But there are many real estate crowdfunding platforms out there. I’ve been able to talk to a lot of the top ones and a lot of the big ones, and some of them don’t make it, frankly… But some of them do. And the assets they allow you to invest in are separate LLCs that continue to go on regardless of what the platform does.

So in the old days you would basically invest in a real estate fund through your network. You have a friend who’s in real estate development, he wants to raise some money, you participate, you’re a limited partner etc. Today you can go online, you can obviously buy REITs, you can buy private REITs, and you can go directly through these platforms that connect you with other sponsors.

Theo Hicks: So you’ve found this deal through your website. Someone came to you with the deal, or someone posted it on your website?

Sam Dogen: Yeah, through my website, for sure.

Theo Hicks: One thing that we stress a lot is about building a brand – our’s is a podcast website – for building a real estate company. You talk about personal finance. Is that something that — you also mentioned owning online real estate, owning websites… So what’s some advice you have for someone — well, I guess then you also have a million organic views per month… So what’s your advice for someone who wants to start getting into what you call the online real estate and owning a website? Should they build their own, should they invest with someone else’s website? What does investing in someone’s website even look like? …things like that.

Sam Dogen: I think one of the key things you have to do is own your brand and build your brand. You don’t want another platform to own your brand, for example Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, whatever. They are already huge companies, and they’re getting rich off your content and your brand. So instead of spending all your time tweeting about random stupid things on Twitter, build your own brand and start your own website, and start talking about all the things you care about on your website. It’s the green marble theory that I like to think about and say, and that is if you have a green marble, maybe it’s the ugliest green marble in the world; you put it on eBay and someone will find that green marble and wanna buy it. So if you put yourself out there, based on your own brand and what you care about, you’re going to find your tribe organically eventually. Google obviously has been around for over a decade now. They’ve done their algorithms very well. They’re gonna help people who are looking for stuff that you like, and connect. And that is really key, to build your brand and do it on your own platform.

The other thing is you need to be consistent. You can’t give up before the roses bloom. Too many people I see just work for six months, maybe a year, and then they stop doing it… But they stop right before things start getting good. So I believe the secret to success is to do something very consistently, for 5-10 years. After about three years you should definitely start seeing some results, but too bad people can’t stick with things for more than one or two years, because they just want instant gratification. But this is a long game, and if you plan to be alive for decades, then you have plenty of time to build your brand.

Theo Hicks: That’s really good advice about building your website, but specifically the 5-10 years, thinking in terms of decades rather than days and weeks and months. So you did mention about not going out there and tweeting your thoughts, as opposed to building your own website and then you’ll [unintelligible [00:13:37].23] organically. So do you recommend just posting on the website and that’s it, and then letting people find you on Google organically? Or should I still be sharing the content from my website on social media?

Sam Dogen: Of course, you create the hub. You create your pillar, awesome content, whatever it is you wanna talk about. If you wanna talk about real estate, go ahead. If you wanna be a real estate specialist, go ahead. If you wanna be a personal finance generalist, or just focused on stocks and real estate and family finances… Whatever you wanna do. The world is big enough; there’s billions of people on the internet. Focus on what you care about and you are best at. And then the spokes are social media; make sure what you’re doing on social media is helping you build your brand, not hurt your brand. A lot of people have blown themselves up on social media saying things and then just getting fired, or just crushed.

So think about the spokes after you build your hub, your own brand. So the spokes are maybe doing a podcast, getting on a podcast like this one. Social media. Maybe speaking at conferences, if they ever come back. But focus on the hub.

Theo Hicks: Okay, Sam, what is your best real estate investing advice? You can also apply it to personal investing advice too, but what’s your best ever investing advice?

Sam Dogen: In terms of real estate, I would say be patient. Every time you see an amazing property, it’s just human nature to get all excited and say “I’ve gotta buy this. This is amazing. Please, nobody else bid against me. I’ve gotta buy! Buy, buy, buy, buy!” But the reality is if you miss this one, it’s okay; there’s gonna be another amazing property that’ll come along. So I really stress patience and running the numbers, especially during a turning point where we don’t know what’s gonna happen with the economy, with 40 million-plus people unemployed. Is the government really gonna support us indefinitely? Are we gonna find a vaccine within the next 12-18 months? There’s a lot of uncertainty, so right now patience is a virtue. Don’t rush, don’t go panic-buying, don’t go panic-selling. You’ve really gotta run the numbers and think things through. If you miss out, it’s okay; there’s gonna be other opportunities along the way.

Theo Hicks: Alright, perfect. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?

Sam Dogen: Sure.

Theo Hicks: Alright. First, a quick word from our sponsor.

Break: [00:15:53].00] to [00:16:42].07]

Theo Hicks: Okay, what is the best ever book you’ve recently read?

Sam Dogen: Let’s see… I have been recently reading Annie Duke’s “Thinking in Bets.” I think it’s an excellent book and an excellent way to think about investing. There’s never a 0% probability or a 100% probability. There’s always going to be some kind of grey area, and you’ve gotta think in bets, think in percentages.

So right now, with the S&P 500 at 3,000, for example, it’s rebounding by over 32% from the mid-March lows… What is the expectation or probability that it’s gonna go up back to its record high, another 10% up from here? I would say maybe 30%. But that also means 70% is not gonna get there. So in that regards, I position my portfolio according to the probabilities that I believe in. So thinking in bets.

Theo Hicks: If your website traffic were to collapse today, what would you do next?

Sam Dogen: Right now I have about 250k-265k in passive income, excluding my website, except for 50k. 50k comes from selling a severance negotiation book… So if my website collapsed today, I would have about 200k to 215k a year in passive retirement income. So that would be a 20% loss to my passive retirement income. Then I would basically look at my budget and make sure I’m spending within my means… Because that’s obviously the bottom line of personal finance – spend within your means.

Now, in terms of the active income I was making from Financial Samurai through advertising and so forth, I would first take a moment to grieve, because I’ve been working on this for 11 years, and then I’d take a moment to be thankful that it’s given me so much back in terms of community, in terms of learning from other people, in terms of doing something that provides me joy… And then I’d think about maybe taking a six-month break, and then I would think about maybe starting something else better or newer, and learn from my mistakes.

Theo Hicks: What is your best ever way you like to give back?

Sam Dogen: In terms of giving back, I think the best way to give back is to write on Financial Samurai. Every single article is free, there’s no paywall. I talk about highly, highly pertinent things in our lives right now, whether it’s “What should you do after the stock market has rebounded by 32% from the bottom? Should you buy, hold, sell?” I talk about “Should I apply to pre-school and spend $2,000/month? Yes or no. Should I save x amount in my 529 plan so my child can go to college in 18 years, when everything will be free and college will be completely not worth its value?” I talk about these important things for free, and to help people engage and to encourage the audience to share their perspective, so that we can all learn from each other… Because nobody knows everything, and we all only know from our experiences and how we can do things better.

So I think that’s the best gift – to share what you know, consistently, for free, to as many people as possible? Because so many people will just go through and live the same thing that you went through just the past 5, 10, 15, 20, 35 years, and they could avoid all those landmines if the experienced people spend some time sharing what they did wrong and what they did right. That’s my plan.

Theo Hicks: And then lastly, what’s the best ever place to reach you?

Sam Dogen: Oh, just financialsamurai.com. I’m always reading the comments, you can always leave a comment. It doesn’t matter how old the post is, I’ll see it. You can go on Twitter if you want, but Twitter is something that I try not to spend too much time on. Basically, those two places are probably the best.

Theo Hicks: Perfect. Sam, I really appreciate you coming on the show today and providing your best ever advice. I think the biggest takeaway for me was your advice on owning websites and your analogy of the wheel, and how you don’t want to let other larger online platforms own your stuff. So you don’t wanna just be posting on Facebook or LinkedIn or (as you mentioned) Twitter. Instead, you want to be the hub yourself, so have your own website, focus on what you care about and what you’re best at on that website. And then the spokes are the secondary outlets, things like social media, podcasts, getting on a podcast, speaking at conferences. So those things are not the hub. The hub is you and your own website. So start working on your own brand and building your own brand, and make sure you’re the owner of it.

And then how to actually grow that – you talked about the green marble theory; you’ve got a green marble, and even if it’s really ugly, you put it on eBay and someone’s gonna want that green marble. So if you put yourself out there and you talk about what you care about, and you do it consistently, and you don’t give up before the roses bloom — and by consistently you mean 5-10 years… Not giving up after a year or two years or three years – then eventually you’ll find your own tribe organically.

And then obviously you talked about your real estate portfolio, the types of returns you’re getting on it, how real estate is your favorite asset class to build wealth, followed by stocks, followed by owning real estate… So again, Sam, I really appreciate you coming on the show. I look forward to reading through some of your content. I really liked what you said about the college thing; I hadn’t thought about it like that before… But again, thanks for coming on the show.

Best Ever listeners, as always, thank you for listening. Have a best ever day, and we’ll talk to you tomorrow.

Sam Dogen: Great. Thanks a lot.

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JF2102: From Military to Millionaire With David Pere

David Pere is a full-time active duty Marine and the founder of “From Military to Millionaire”. He has bought and sold 54 units, holds 13 rentals, and is a general partner in a 146-unit apartment. He discusses one of his deals that he had a headache within creative financing and shares what he would have done differently. David also goes into his process of mailing to absentee owners.

 

David Pere Real Estate Background:

  • Active duty Marine
  • Started investing in real estate in 2015
  • Founder of “From Military to Millionaire”
  • Has bought and sold 54 units (one of them being a 40 unit), holds 13 rentals, and is a general partner in a 146-unit apartment
  • Based in San Diego, California
  • Say hi to him at: www.frommilitarytomillionaire.com 
  • Best Ever Book: Like Switch 

 

 

 

Click here for more info on groundbreaker.co

Best Ever Tweet:

“Stuff isn’t always going to go your way, don’t invest money you can’t afford to lose.” – David Pere


TRANSCRIPTION

Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast, where we only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff. With us today, Dave Pere. How are you doing, Dave?

David Pere: I’m doing well, brother. I appreciate you having me on. I love your show.

Joe Fairless: Well, I thank you for that, and I’m glad to hear it. First off, you’re active duty marine, so thank you, sir, for everything you do, and you and your colleagues letting us have this time to be free and have these conversations… So first and foremost, I have a lot of respect for you and all of your colleagues.

Dave started investing in 2015. He’s the founder of From Military to Millionaire. He has bought and sold 54 units, 40 of those 54 being a 40-unit property. He holds 14 rentals and is a general partner in a 146-unit apartment community. Based in San Diego, California. With that being said, do you wanna give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and your current focus?

David Pere: Absolutely, brother. As you mentioned, I mentioned the Marine Corps in 2008. Sometimes, I would say a lot of the world, like it’s a great thing, sometimes I’d say too much of the world… But I had a lot of experience just with people in different cultures. In 2015 I was a recruiter in the Midwest. Someone handed me the book Rich Dad, Poor Dad, I told them I don’t read, kind of joking… Like, “I am a marine… What do you think? I’m hard-headed.” And the guy literally pulled a CD disk out of his pocket and was like “Well, you spend a lot of time driving in your car, so here you go.” And I was like “Ahh, he got me. I’ve gotta listen to this.”

Within three months I had closed on a duplex, house-hack – living in one side, renting the other, doing that good thing… And then about six months later I got orders to Hawaii. I was like “Man, it’s a lot more expensive over here.” I got a bunch of offers declined, I couldn’t find anything that worked to buy… So I just kept buying in Missouri. I started a long-distance thing. I had the duplex, then I bought a single-family that we did the BRRRR strategy before I knew what that was. We renovated it, then we rented it out, and then a few years later — we didn’t refinance, we pulled a HELOC on it, and we used that HELOC to buy a ten-unit.

I then bought a 40-unit, did some  stuff on it, I got rid of the 40-unit, turned around, flipped a house… So during this, I’m partnered on a couple of flips in San Diego, small partnerships here and there made some money, and then flipped a home in Missouri… And then I’m currently under contract on a duplex; so that’ll be 14 and 15 that I just plan to hold indefinitely in that little market.

Then a general partner came in the last few months. So the big trend for me is just trying to balance being a full-time marine, traveling all over the place, with investing in various markets, with a lot of just sight unseen stuff, building teams, and networking, and relationships. So that’s a little bit about me… I’m just continuing to grow all of that.

Joe Fairless: Let’s talk about that 40-unit, since you’ve taken that full-cycle… Tell us about how you’ve found it, what the business plan was, what you bought it for, what did you put into it, what did you sell it for… All that good stuff.

David Pere: We bought this thing for about 150k down. We bought it at a 2.795, with some great financing options. So that one’s just kind of a strange ordeal. Realistically, that one wasn’t a huge profit. That one ended up being something that we got out from under, because it was a deal that didn’t quite work out to what it was supposed to be… So that’s probably the one deal in all of this that — I haven’t actually lost anything on it yet, but I got out from under, because it just did not work out.

So the guy didn’t uphold his end of the contract, things went super-sideways… And in essence, a year and a half later in a fun legal battle I was trying to pull all of our original capital back out of it.

So I may say full-cycle on that one, but that was the one big mistake — it’s funny, because one of your Lightning Round questions is “A big mistake you’ve made on a transaction”, and that was gonna be my answer to that…

Joe Fairless: [laughs] I sniffed it out right out of the gate.

David Pere: Yeah, so that’s good.

Joe Fairless: That was just dumb luck on my part.

David Pere: No, it’s totally good. I thought about bringing all that up before we got on the call, but… In essence, the gentleman that I was under contract with – there were things that were very clear in the contract, like “This needs to be done by this date” or “Seller owes buyer this”, and it just didn’t happen.

Joe Fairless: Like what? What’s an example?

David Pere: The roof needed to be replaced by the 90 days after closing, or seller owed buyer $100,000.

Joe Fairless: Okay.

David Pere: 120 days into the deal, it’s December and I’ve got commercial tenants — it was a mixed-used; it was 25 residential, 15 commercial on a four-story building in the South-West… And in essence, the two commercial tenants on the fourth floor broke their lease, because come December they have a leaky roof and no HVAC, and the two things in the contract were “Replace the roof and put HVAC on the fourth floor.” And it’s December in the Midwest, so it’s snowing outside, and I have a wedding venue and it’s 45 degrees inside this building; we’re done. Some crazy stuff.

There were four units that were in the contract; they were supposed to be finished with renovations by 45 days after closing, and when we brought the city inspector in, he’s like “We’ve put a cease-work order on this four months ago” and they finished it without a permit. So all of those walls needs to be removed, that plumbing needs to be removed,  and the guy was basically like “Well, the contractor said I had to finish them.” “Um, they’re not finished.” “No, they’re done.” “No, no. They have to be finished up to code…” So it’s things like that.

What we did was we just basically offloaded it and we said “Hey, we want our down payment back, plus–” Because it had been cash-flowing up until we lost the commercial tenants. At that point, the guy had had 30 days to pay us for the work he hadn’t completed, and we were just getting the same “Oh yeah, I’ll get to it.” “No, that’s not quite how this works.” So we broke the contract, asked for the down  payment back, got told it was non-refundable, and we have a court date set for July, finally, to finish all that out…

But I guess the biggest thing I would say for that, if we’re talking as far as lessons for your listeners, because I have no problem being the guy to talk mistakes, is document everything… Even if it’s a phone call, follow-up with an email “Hey, this is what we agreed to you while negotiating on the phone call. Please reply to confirm.” Because there’s one or two emails that I should have sent, that I didn’t…So we have “He said/She said” addendums to the contract, that were made afterwards, that there’s just no record of… Which isn’t gonna screw me, but it’s gonna make things very difficult.

Joe Fairless: Yeah.

David Pere: So I would just say document everything like that, and… Hey, stuff’s not always gonna go your way. Don’t invest money you can’t afford to lose… Because this didn’t stop me. I’ve bought three more rental units since then, flipped a house, and partnered up on a GP for a big apartment complex… Because it was money I could afford to lose.

So don’t go in over your head, and just have a plan. Stuff’s gonna go wrong, don’ let it stop you from investing.

Joe Fairless: This is interesting, because it’s creative financing, and that is talked about in a positive light the majority of the time when you’re talking about real estate transactions. In this scenario, because it was creative financing, it did not work out, because there was another party involved due to the creative financing… Whereas if it had been traditional financing, then you wouldn’t have that person involved. But on the flipside, you would have had to get the work done yourself, and get it budgeted and get it financed, or some sort of financing or cash out of pocket and do the work.

So my question is if presented another deal, that’s a very close cousin to this, other than it’s just a different seller, how would you structure it to make the deal work? If it would be creative financing, then what are some things that you’d make sure you had in place?

David Pere: That’s a great question, I love that. I’ve done a lot of thinking about this, because the reality is looking back, you can kick yourself about all the things that went wrong, but if I knew everything I knew going forward, I would probably still close on that property. I don’t know any other way that I would have gotten 4%. This is in 2018, where interest rates were not as low as they are now, but 4% interest for the duration of the loan, and interest-only for the first year – those are some pretty competitive terms for commercial financing in 2018.

Joe Fairless: How long was the loan?

David Pere: I had eight years to the balloon payment, but it was amortized for 25…

Joe Fairless: Got it.

David Pere: But those are some fairly competitive terms for commercial property, and the deal – at the time I bought it, it was only 80% occupied, and it had a lot of room to grow… And it was below market. There was a huge value-add.  It was a really cool property, it had a lot of history in the town, a lot of people knew the building… I don’t know that I would change the fact that I bought it, and honestly, given the same options going forward, I would probably still do it. For sure, the first thing I would do is all of the “Do this by this date, or owe this much money”, I would escrow all of that cash upfront. I would say “That’s great, but I want all of this into the escrow fund, so that if you don’t do what you’re supposed to do, I still get my cash.” And you can do the work out of the escrow fund, that’s totally fine, but it’s getting escrowed, so we don’t have a “Oh yeah, I’ll get to it” payment. That would be the first thing I would do.

The second thing I would do – and this is a little bit on the smaller scale – is I would bring my personal management team in immediately. And this might just be a personal thing because of the experience, but the manager seemed incredible when we took over the place. I just didn’t realize that the manager was getting an under-the-table commission portion of the sale. So while the manager wasn’t terrible, they weren’t nearly as good as they made themselves out to be… So going forward, I’d probably just say “Hey look, I trust you. You look awesome,  you seem great, that’s wonderful, but my team is gonna take over this going forward, because I know them, I trust them, and no matter how good you seem, I’m taking a risk on what you might be like after the fact, while they’ve already been tried and tested.

So those would probably be the two biggest things I would change. And as far as the creative financing, I’ve bought other properties and they’ve all gone really well. I think it’s less of the financing model and more of just the people involved, that can sometimes be the make or break… Which is unfortunate, but I guess maybe I would just do a better job of background checks… But even then, the few references I had and the little bit of a track record I had in town, the gentlemen checked out, so… I don’t know if maybe I just got unlucky, but it is what it is.

Joe Fairless: On the flip side, what deal have you made the most money on?

David Pere: The most money I’ve made probably so far is my 10-unit, which I still own. The 146 will ultimately end up being the most money, but it’s just a little bit newer in the cycle… So the 10-unit – this is Missouri prices, so it’s fairly affordable, but it was valued at 240, I bought it at 212, and it was under market rent, and I got the bank to bring in 86% financing, seller to carry ten, and I came out somewhere in the 4% to 5% range for down payment. So I was able to get in super-creative, super-low… This was my third purchase, so I still was fairly strapped for capital. I was still in the “Please help me so I can save for money.” So I bought it and it cash-flowed about  $1,200/month on average from day one. So about 100% cash-on-cash return. And we’re up to about $1,600/month that it cash-flows.

At the 18-month mark I refinanced, paid off the seller financing… And I didn’t pull cash out really for myself, I pulled just enough out to cover my down payment… So at this point, 2,5 years later I’ve got nothing in it, I have no seller financing, I’m at about 69% loan-to-value, and I’ve got $92,000 in equity, and it cash-flows about $1,500 to $1,600/month.

Joe Fairless: Wow… That’s a grand slam.

David Pere: Yeah, it was awesome.

Joe Fairless: How did you find it?

David Pere: Ironically, I was mailing out to absentee homeowners about duplexes. And basically, I got this phone call, and he was like “I got your letter.” I’m like “Oh, awesome.” He’s like “I don’t wanna sell my duplex.” And my first thought was like “Why are you calling me? Thanks… You just didn’t have to–” Anyway.

Joe Fairless: [laughs]

David Pere: He’s like “But… I have this other property.”

Joe Fairless: He could have been lonely.

David Pere: Yeah, it may be. If it was during quarantine, I’d be much less skeptical.

Joe Fairless: [laughs]

David Pere: But he says “But I’ve got other properties.” And I’m like “Okay, great. What do you have?” And he shot me a couple different things, and they just didn’t really work. I was like “Okay, that’s cool… If you ever come across any other multifamily, or–” At this time I was still looking for duplex, single-family properties…

Joe Fairless: Yeah.

David Pere: He’s like “What about 10-units?” “Well, I’m interested. Talk to me.” And he gave me a price of 235k, and we went back and forth on it… And then we went under contract at 225k, which still would have been a great deal for me… But throughout inspections and stuff we were able to negotiate a little bit more of that down. So it all worked out. He was great for seller-financing, and the cool thing is – I don’t know that he understood paper, or that he really just didn’t need the cash, but when I refinanced, he let me go no prepayment penalty, no nothing. So ultimately, over that year-and-a-half I think I paid like .75% interest on my seller financing to him, because I had only paid down 1.5% of the seller financing by the time we refinanced, and he didn’t ask for interest on any of the remainder. So it was basically free money for me to buy a property, so it was pretty cool.

Joe Fairless: Yeah. You were mailing out to absentee owners about duplexes… Will you describe the process that you used?

David Pere: Yeah, I’m a pretty simple guy… So I just go into ListSource and I just really dive down into a specific zip code, or you can even draw out on a map a square block or whatever that you want… And you can just narrow down in there to absentee homeowners. As you know, people who don’t live in the home, but they own it… And you can pick out equity percentages, you can pick out age of the property… And basically we were just mailing out to people who had owned the property since right around the crash or longer; so the people who had owned it for at least ten years, who theoretically would have at least 40% equity hopefully, and be able to negotiate a little bit… Because I knew that I was gonna try to at least get some angle on the seller financing, whether that was 100% seller finance, or part of the down payment… Because I was in the bootstrapping phase of the business.

So I had narrowed it down to length of ownership, equity percentage being over 40%, absentee homeowner, and really at the time I just put 2-4 units because I didn’t know anything about the commercial stuff and it was kind of intimidating to me… So the 10-unit was a stretch for me going as a first property, but the numbers made sense, so I just let myself jump off the cliff. I guess that would be the short answer to that.

Joe Fairless: What did the note say? And was it a postcard, was it an envelope with a letter inside of it?

David Pere: At this time I was not doing mass, so I literally had a yellow piece of paper, and I remember I had  a 24-hour duty shift which we do in the military here and there, and I sat at this desk during that 24-hours and handwrote 110 letters of “Hi, my name is David Pere. I’m a real estate investor in your market, and I’m interested in your home at Such-and-Such address. I can close fast, please contact me for more information.” And I got a great return. I probably got 19% or 20% callbacks on all those handwritten letters. They were in blue inks… I would throw one or two pennies in the envelope, I would throw a picture of my family in the envelope, and I would hand-sign every letter… So I’m sure every single one of those got opened. But I’ve learned very quickly that that is miserable; so I never did that again.

At this point, if I’m driving around and I might see a property that looks like it has a ton of potential, or if I’m targeting a specific home or two, I’ll handwrite everything. Otherwise, what I did was I basically found a font that looked somewhat like my handwriting, and I’ll print that out on paper and then I’ll sign it in blue ink… And I still to this day will hand-address the envelopes, because I think that definitely speaks volumes for how much your envelope gets opened. And I still stuff in  an envelope and go; I’m not sending thousands and thousands of mailers out, but that’s kind of my go-to. My open rate has definitely dropped. It’s probably 5%, maybe on a good day 10%…

Joe Fairless: You mean your response rate?

David Pere: My response rate, yes. Sorry.

Joe Fairless: Okay.

David Pere: But I would rather send 500 and get 10% responded or 5% responded than handwrite 100 of them (that takes me two days) and get still less responses in the grand scheme of things, even if it’s a higher percentage.

Joe Fairless: The picture of your family – are you wearing a military outfit?

David Pere: It depends on where I’m mailing to. When I lived in Hawaii, for instance, that didn’t really hold any weight, because everybody around the base was military. So I would just go with a normal picture, like a fun in the sand, beach, Christmas photo that I have of us, all in pajamas, on the beach, and Christmas stuff…

Joe Fairless: Okay.

David Pere: If I’m mailing somewhere like the Midwest though, where they’re very military-friendly, then yes, it’s generally gonna be something with — either in a Marine Corps shirt, or hoodie… I generally don’t enjoy the uniform; there’s just something about that that seems kind of cringy to me as a service member… But I will at least have a picture where I’m in a big, very obvious Marine Corps hoodie, with the family. So it’s more focused on the family than the military service, but maybe some subtle hints in there.

Joe Fairless: What about the pennies? Is there a reference there in the note to why pennies are included?

David Pere: No, I totally should do that though. That’s a great idea. I should put a line in there that just says —

Joe Fairless: No, don’t do it — what you’ve got is right; don’t let me mess it up. I’m just asking questions.

David Pere: [laughs] So the pennies, for those of you who aren’t listening – it’s really just because if you’ve got an envelope in the mail and something was rattling around in it, would you open it?

Joe Fairless: Or I’d call the FBI… [laughs]

David Pere: Yeah, one or the other. But hey, the FBI will open it and tell you what it says, so either way you’re gonna read what I wrote.

Joe Fairless: [laughs] Okay, that’s cool. I’m glad that you talked about this in detail. It’s a way that can help others get their letters opened and noticed. Did you ever consider having an assistant who’s time is $10/hour or much less to write those?

David Pere: I actually have several virtual assistants for various things. I have yet to make my administrative one write my letters for me… But I will tell you  a funny story from a good friend of mine, who basically ran a letter sweatshop out of his office. If you ever get him on the show, I apologize [unintelligible [00:21:33].21] Basically, he had 2-3 marines come over, and he would provide alcohol and pizza, and they would spend eight hours handwriting letters in his house. It was only scalable for a month or two before he couldn’t convince anyone else to come do it anymore… But that’s probably my favorite.

This guy probably put out 2,000 letters one weekend, and he had six guys over, and basically was just like “I’m providing alcohol, I’m providing food… This is gonna be fun.” But no one ever returned, so he said it wasn’t worth the relationships he might be ruining.

Joe Fairless: [laughs] Well, he’s given them food and alcohol…

David Pere: I would do it, but I might be crazy. Taking a step back, based on your experience, what’s your best real estate investing advice ever?

Joe Fairless: Man, just get out there and do it. I tell people from the military — I have a safety net, so I’m allowed to take really big risks, in my opinion, because if all else fails, I’ve got housing and food and clothing etc. taken care of, and a fairly stable job. Basically, when I tell people my favorite advice, this is always like “Learn, network and take action”, but my best advice is get out there and take risks, but just make sure that whatever risk you take  won’t break you. It doesn’t matter how many times you fail as long as you’re able to recover from that risk. And as long as you’re  not gonna get broken by whatever risks you’re taking, the pay-off will always end up being bigger in the long run.

Joe Fairless: We’re gonna do a lightning round. Are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?

David Pere: I am ready for the Lightning Round.

Joe Fairless: Alright, let’s do it. First, a quick word from our Best Ever partners.

Break: [00:22:58].23] to [00:23:34].17]

Joe Fairless: Alright, what’s the best ever book you’ve recently read?

David Pere: The best ever book I’ve recently read – I would have to go with either Like Switch, which is a book dedicated completely to how to build relationships through body language… It’s another FBI agent writing a book about body language, but it’s a super fun read, and really intuitive, and just little things you can do to make yourself a little bit more likable.

And I’m just gonna plug Big Debt Crisis by Ray Dalio, because I’m reading it right now, and it’s fairly applicable to where we’re at in the economic cycle. It’s a heavy read, but it’s good.

Joe Fairless: Yeah, I will buy Like Switch. I have not heard of that, and I am looking forward to reading that. What is the best ever deal that you’ve done? It doesn’t have to be monetarily, because we’ve already talked about that, the 10-unit… But just best ever deal. If it’s the 10-unit, then that’s fine, we can move on.

David Pere: That’s a good one, but I think the best ever deal I’ve done – this is gonna be super-cliché, because we already  mentioned the actual deal-deal… It’s gonna be the word “networking”. I have gained more out of whether virtual or in-person relationship building, so I would venture to say that the relationships I’ve built are probably the best deals I’ve ever made.

Joe Fairless: Best ever way you like to give back to the community?

David Pere: Free content and helping others. I’m out here just trying to help others avoid some of the mistakes I’ve made along the way. So if I can help someone avoid a  mistake or answer a question for them, that’s the easiest way for me to add value.

Joe Fairless: And how can the Best Ever listeners learn more about what you’re doing?

David Pere: My social media handle is @frommilitarytomillionaire, but if you google “military millionaire”, I’ll pop up all over the place… And the hope is just to help other service members, vets and normal people learn how to build wealth through real estate and entrepreneurship.

Joe Fairless: Well, Dave, thank you for being on the show, talking about your 40-unit and the creative financing and a couple things that you do differently if presented a similar opportunity like the escrow fund, as well as bringing your own management team to the property immediately, regardless of how well the pre-existing team checks out.

And talking about 10-unit too, the grand slam 10-unit – that’s phenomenal. Congratulations on that. And then also talking about direct mail, too. Lots of really interesting and actionable items from this conversation for everyone, myself included. Thanks for being on the show. I hope you have a best ever day, talk to you again soon.

David Pere: Thanks, brother. I appreciate it.

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JF2092: From IT Sales to Multi Family Investing With JP Albano

JP started in IT sales and later found an interest in multifamily investing. Today he owns 70 units in Houston, Tx, and 165 units across the metro Atlanta area. His first deal was partnered syndication, where he learned a lot of lessons that he implemented in his journey forward in acquiring multiple properties. He shares some of the lessons he learned from a deal where he lost over six figures.

 

JP Albano Real Estate Background:

  • Owner, of JP Albano
  • He started in IT sales and later found an interest in MultiFamily investing.
  • Today he owns 70 units in Houston, TX, and 165 units across the metro Atlanta area which are currently undergoing successful repositioning.
  • Resides in Serenbe, Georgia
  • Say hi to him at https://www.jpalbano.com/

Click here for more info on groundbreaker.co

 

Best Ever Tweet:

“Partner with a more experienced person in a group and seek to offer value in some way.” – JP Albano


TRANSCRIPTION

Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless. This is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast where we only talk about the best advice ever; we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff. With us today, JP Albano. How you doing, JP?

JP Albano: I’m doing wonderful. I’m so excited to be here, Joe.

Joe Fairless: Well, I’m glad to hear that and I’m glad you’re doing wonderful. A little bit about JP – he started in IT sales, found an interest in multifamily investing because he wanted another way to provide for his family. Today, he owns 70 units in Houston, Texas, and 165 units across the metro Atlanta that are currently undergoing repositioning, so we’re going to talk to him about that. Based in Serenbe, Georgia. Did I say that right?

JP Albano: You got it, Joe.

Joe Fairless: Serenbe, Georgia. So with that being said, do you wanna give the Best Ever listeners a little bit more about your background and your current focus?

JP Albano: Absolutely. So background, as you mentioned, has been IT sales; I got into multifamily as a way of trying to figure out how I can generate – I’m doing air quotes, but passive income. I’m still waiting for the passivity to kick in, but what I didn’t realize is number one, how much I would enjoy pursuing multifamily deals, and just how incredibly rewarding it is to work in an industry where everybody wants to partner and everyone wants to get things done. Compare that to my sales career, it’s a bit of an uphill battle. You’ve got customers who don’t want to talk to you, competing partners that want to sell competing products… So it’s a refreshing place where I can come into it and pick up the phone and call people and welcome the opportunity to partner and grow and build together. So where we are today, we look at assets that are B and C class. We do the value add. like everybody else.

We have a different spin on multifamily than most people. We really want to dial-up and change the way multifamily is done today by adding up higher levels of customer service, and really treating the people that live there with more dignity and respect than they’re otherwise getting today, and we’ve got a whole business model around how we do that. We look for properties that are 250 units in size, across a variety of markets here in the south and southeast.

Joe Fairless: Okay, so up to 250 or 250 plus?

JP Albano: 250 plus.

Joe Fairless: Okay, have you closed on a 250 plus?

JP Albano: No, the biggest we’ve got right now is almost 100 units. Well, we’ve had a 100-unis and a 60-unit, so in total, that’s the 165. But the biggest we have so far is a 96-unit.

Joe Fairless: Okay, biggest is 96. So why aren’t you focused on other 96 units?

JP Albano: It’s a great question. In order for us to really demonstrate our ethic and our core values for our business here at significant lifestyle communities, to demonstrate that customer service level, we really need to support the staff, and we found that in order to do that, we need properties that generate enough revenue to support the payroll “burden”, and 250, that’s the sweet spot.

Joe Fairless: Okay, so you’ve got 70 units in Houston and 165 across the Atlanta area.

JP Albano: Yes, sir.

Joe Fairless: What came first of those two?

JP Albano: The Texas properties.

Joe Fairless: Texas properties. Okay, tell us a story about the Texas properties.

JP Albano: So my first deal was really more of a key principle or limited partner in a deal. The idea going into that was that I was going to get some experience or at least talking points that I can use to leverage that with brokers and get access to more deals. What I found that is 1) it gave me more confidence, but 2) it didn’t really necessarily lead to more door openings; maybe it did, maybe it didn’t. But my real, real first deal for the Best Ever listeners here is a 28-unit property in Houston, Texas, that me and three other gentlemen, we pulled down, we syndicated. That was our first deal that we really did on our own. We syndicated the deal on top of that. Talk about baptism of fire. There’s a lot of learning opportunity there and a lot of growth that happened. What really got me excited was the personal development that came from that; coming from most people when they’re getting into active real estate investing, getting rid of a lot of limiting beliefs, the idea of “asking people for money” instead of looking at it as providing opportunities for people to get great returns; just going through all those sorts of things. But that was about a $2 million acquisition price. We raised about $700,000. We got a number of friends and family with about $20,000, $25,000 or so, and the property is currently undergoing a really successful repositioning. We had some battle with a third party property manager that seemed like he was saying all the right things and doing the right things. The problem was they weren’t really delivering. So that was a really good learning opportunity that came out of that.

Joe Fairless: Okay, please elaborate.

JP Albano: Yeah, sure. So we had a property where our business plan was to go in and renovate the units, increase the rents, the normal stuff. The problem was we weren’t getting tenant showings. People weren’t biting on the higher rent increases, our renewals were falling through, and we had very little visibility into what the current third party PM was doing. We had a portal that we can log in, we could see leads, but they use a different system outside of that to actually nurture the leads. So we couldn’t see that. So as far as we could tell, we’ve got people putting emails and phone calls in and no one really following up.

Then we found ourselves in a funny spot where we tried to move away from them and suddenly realized that that size property, 28 unit, is a funny place. It’s not small enough for the single-family people to want to care about, and it’s not big enough for the bigger real property managers to wanna deal with. So we almost were forced to take over property management ourselves, which we ended up doing. So we bought some big boy property management software, which we’re moving the rest of our portfolio into, and one of my partners who’s local to the deal took over the day to day management. I’ve gotta say, it’s probably one of the best things we ever did because in a matter of, I want to say, two to three weeks, we got all of our vacant units rented up, and we have a waiting list for our property.

Joe Fairless: You said the first deal you did was at 26 units. Did I write that down correctly?

JP Albano: Yeah, this one we’re talking about right now was 28 units.

Joe Fairless: 28, sorry. 28 units, and you syndicated it…

JP Albano: Yes.

Joe Fairless: So how much equity did you raise in the syndication?

JP Albano: The total raised was about $700,000 to $800,000 if I remember correctly.

Joe Fairless: Okay. What was the purchase price?

JP Albano: It was a $2 million purchase price. So we also raised money for the capital improvements and there was an extra, above ordinary closing costs.

Joe Fairless: Okay. Do you know about how much the legal fees were to syndicate that?

JP Albano: It wasn’t that bad. I want to say it was between $8,000 and $12,000. Yeah, it wasn’t awful.

Joe Fairless: Okay, cool. So with that deal, it was you and how many partners?

JP Albano: It was four of us total. So three other gentlemen.

Joe Fairless: Okay, and how did you split up your roles and responsibilities?

JP Albano: That was a good learning opportunity as well. That when we split up pretty much evenly amongst ourselves. Everyone got 25% from an ownership standpoint. As far as responsibilities go, we didn’t really define who would be doing what, we just had the understanding that each of us is going to contribute in whichever way was possible or wherever we need help; that sort of mentality. It worked out fairly well. As time went on, we saw that the property required a lot more care and feeding than we were expecting, simply because we were under the impression that our third party PM that we were paying money for was gonna be managing the property, but the reality was we were working on the property almost every day for the first four to six months.

Joe Fairless: Okay, so that was your first deal. Do you still partner with those same three other people on deals that you’re working on now?

JP Albano: We are still in communication on other opportunities as they come up. Absolutely, yes.

Joe Fairless: Okay, so what’s the last deal you bought?

JP Albano: Last deal we bought was – oh, this is an interesting one… This one was in October, it was a 57-unit in Hapeville, Georgia, which is a city inside of Atlanta. It’s just north of the airport in Atlanta.

Joe Fairless: Okay. Did you have the same three partners on that one?

JP Albano: No, that was a different deal, different opportunity. I partnered on that one with my current business partner, Matt Shields, on that one, and a few other friends and family. We did not syndicate that one, we just raised money from about eight other people because we bought the property for a song.

Joe Fairless: Okay, got it. So it was a joint venture then.

JP Albano: Exactly, exactly.

Joe Fairless: Okay, so you had a joint venture on that one. So tell us the business plan on that, and first off, how’d you find it?

JP Albano: That property was interesting. My real estate coach, Bill Ham, had notified me. He knew I lived in the area, and he knew that there was something that I and my team could take down. He was at the same time closing, he found himself in a situation where he was closing two properties at the same time. This one would require a lot more work, so he was a little disinterested in it. So his offer was, “Hey, pay me a finder’s fee and you guys can have the contract.” So that’s what we did. We call it a unicorn, really. It was an original owner for 60 years. You wouldn’t even tell this property existed, because when you get off the highway to get there, it’s down the street of a dead-end road. So unless you venture down the street a little bit past the trees, then you’re greeted by this oasis of a smorgasbord of different houses.

The gentleman that was running it previously, was running it as a weekly rental property, again, for the last 60 years. Rents for about $100 a week or $400 a month, and this is in a submarket where a one-bedroom apartment was average rents are $915. So we saw an opportunity to increase the rents, not necessarily to $400, but somewhere in the $500 to $600 range. We had a variety of challenges around not having actual financials. This was the definition of mom and pop. So things were written on carbon copy paper. There were no systems in place, there was very little documentation, so we had to underwrite that with really good finger in the air assumptions on things and being very aggressive with respect to what losses we can expect, things like that.

I can happily say so far, knock on my thick  Sicilian head, that things are turning out a lot better than we ever anticipated. There’s been a tremendous amount of demand for that type of housing. People have the ability to pay weekly because frankly, these people are in a financial situation where they just can’t manage their money well enough to be able to do monthly rents. And they like the area, they like the job opportunities that are there. They like being close to Atlanta. We have a waiting list and we haven’t even advertised any of the property.

Joe Fairless: With that deal, what’s been something that surprised you in a bad way about it?

JP Albano: In a bad way? I would say that– I guess I didn’t recognize or realize that the people that do live there — well, I feel like they’re trying to do their darndest best. A lot of them have sorted and troubled histories and backgrounds. I’m not surprised. I think there might be a few registered sex offenders that live there. So as a family man and a father of two children, two girls, I should say there’s that part that doesn’t sit super well with me, but at the same time, they are human beings. I’m sure that they have atoned for their sins in the legal system. So that’s probably how I would answer that question, Joe.

Joe Fairless: What deal have you lost the most amount of money on?

JP Albano: Oh, it’s a good question. So this was a deal that, as of last Monday, I should say that I learned that the deal was dead. It’s been dragging on for almost a year now. It was a 300-unit student housing property that I was part of the earnest money and due diligence contributor in the GP team; that was my contribution. The team that was running the deal lost the contract. It’s through a variety of mishaps, not being able to raise the capital, some shaky business with the loan, with the deal sponsors themselves. It’s a story for another day, but yeah, I lost a six-figure amount of money on that deal. Pretty sad.

Joe Fairless: I’m sorry that happened.

JP Albano: You know what the good part about is, Joe? It’s a good story to tell to other people in my community and other investors and show them, hey, bad things happen. And it’s okay because you grow from it, you learn from it, you make the best of it and you try to learn from those things, and that’s how I really moved on past it. Honestly, it doesn’t really bother me anymore. It’s just more [unintelligible [00:14:05].18]. It was more of a giant waste of time than anything else, and that’s really the biggest sucky part of it; just a waste of time, for no reason.

Joe Fairless: I get that. So knowing what you know now, if you were presented a similar opportunity somewhere else–

JP Albano: Oh, yeah.

Joe Fairless: –what questions would you ask, now that you know what you went through?

JP Albano: You ready? How much of your money, Mr. Deal Sponsor person or Mrs. Deal Sponsor person, are you putting in the deal? How much of your skin is in this game? And that was the problem; they didn’t have any skin in the game.

Joe Fairless: Got it. So they worked with partners. Those partners did put up the earnest money, they did not, deal fell out of contract, partners who put up earnest money lost money – is that basically what happened?

JP Albano: Exactly, exactly.

Joe Fairless: Got it. That’s a big question to ask. Any other questions? Because let’s say they say, “Oh, I’m putting in 50k of my own money.” Anything else you would ask about that?

JP Albano: I would, yeah. “Let’s also do a personal guarantee on that.” I would be comfortable with that, the personal guarantee, and also understanding how much they are on the hook for as well, and I think that’s fair. And maybe even hashing out a plan, a go-forward plan. Let’s say there’s a couple of partners in the deal and JP is being asked to contribute 20 grand or 30 grand for some due diligence stuff, whatever. “Okay, guys, what happens if we lose the 20 grand? Is everyone gonna contribute $15,000 or some amount of money to help recoup the cost?” I think that’s a fair way of doing it, and just having that conversation about, okay, what happens worst-case? Because those go down; it’s part of life.

Joe Fairless: Well, let’s reverse the focus, and let’s talk about the deal you’ve made the most money on.

JP Albano: That’s lining up to actually be this 60-year-old original owner property.

Joe Fairless: Well, let’s talk about money in the bank, as of this moment, out of all the deals that you’ve done. So the most amount of money in the bank you’ve earned from a deal to date. What is that?

JP Albano: That’s a hard one to answer because all of the money in the deals coming out of them are anywhere from $500 to $1,000 of distribution, which I’m extremely appreciative, Universe, but it hardly is that a number where anyone’s going to crash their car or hit repeat on their smartphone.

Joe Fairless: By crash their car, they’re crashing it because of excitement.

JP Albano: Actually, they’re staggered, they’re staggered.

Joe Fairless: Okay, I was wondering why they’d– that’s a lot of money. Okay, I’m gonna end it on a high note; go find the tree. [laughter]

JP Albano: The funny part about it, Joe, is I’ve been doing this for a number of years and I totally recognize this as a long, long haul game. I’m sure you’re in the same boat, and I’m okay with the very, relatively speaking, small returns right now, because I’m building something that’s going to be bigger than myself and bigger than the partners that I’m working on it.

So I see that there’s a lot of upside and a lot of impact that we can make on the people that we affect and touch in our communities and our investors’ lives as we make amazing returns to them. So that’s the part I’m more excited about right now, and the financial part will catch up to me later on.

Joe Fairless: On the 96-unit, for example, $500 to $1000 a month – I assume it’s from the 96-unit because it’s the largest one, but correct me if I’m wrong.

JP Albano: Yeah.

Joe Fairless: Was there not an acquisition fee? Is there not any–

JP Albano: Oh, yeah, you’re right. Yeah, you’re right. There was, actually. So the fee we got was a $30,000 split from that. So you’re right. Thank you for prompting my memory on that.

Joe Fairless: Okay. So you got probably like–

JP Albano: My portion was 30k on it.

Joe Fairless: Oh, well, there you go. Who needs 30k? Yeah, 30k is nothing, right?

JP Albano: I’m so good at spending money on building this business and scaling out a team that it’s really not.

Joe Fairless: Fair enough. Well, let’s talk about you’ve got the portfolio and you’re focused on finding another acquisition that’s twice as large–

JP Albano: Yes, sir.

Joe Fairless: –as what you’ve acquired, and you said at the beginning of our conversation, that you pride yourself on higher levels of customer service. Will you elaborate on how you deliver on that with the community level?

JP Albano: Yeah, that’s a great question. There’s a couple of aspects of that. One is really making people feel like they are part of a community, and I know that’s an often thrown around term, community and belonging and stuff like that. We’re building a business where that is a core, core function of our membership coordinators. The people that are greeting the prospective members and the people that want to express interest in living there.

For example, we have our people go out of their way to introduce a prospect to any other members of our community that might share similar interest, because you really want to show them that, hey, there are other people just like you that live here as well. Isn’t this wonderful? You want to learn about, ask questions about the people that are expressing interest in living in that community. And what I found is when I’m doing my secret shopping, going to different apartments, I can count on maybe one hand how many times a leasing agent actually asked my first name or even what brought me in today. The first question out of their mouth is usually, “When can you move in?” or “When do you need the unit by? How many bedrooms?” It almost goes without fail, and so I don’t feel that the industry is really delivering on this idea of excellent customer service. Especially in the workforce class housing product, where blue-collar people, hard workers, they’re honestly not used to being treated like if you were a resident at the Ritz Carlton. I don’t know if it has to be that extreme, but that’s just the direction that we choose to operate our business on. So it’s a tremendous opportunity there.

Joe Fairless: So a couple of questions that the person who greets the prospective resident asks out of the gate… What are some other tactical things that if a Best Ever listener’s listening to this and they want to implement something, what are some tactical things we can do?

JP Albano: Very basic questions, greeting them with a smile, standing up and maybe instructing your staff to be able to make it clear that they are excited that someone came in and is inquiring about your property. So asking the basic questions, what’s your name, greeting them by that name, showing a warm and caring welcome, ask them what brings them there today, and then easing into the topic rather about what brings you in and what answers can we provide to you about our community that you want to know about it.

Because reality is 80% of a person’s decision to move into your property is made when they pull up; that’s the whole curb appeal thing. The rest of the experience is either going to move the needle further in the direction of yes or it’s going to dissuade them from wanting to live there. So I just see a lot of properties falling short on that.

The other part of it too is really if your leasing agents are speaking with a prospect and Mrs. Smith walks by, and then in your conversation with this prospect you learned that they like gardening or they like dogs or whatever, have the leasing agent to go out of the way and introduce Mrs. Smith to this prospect. “Hey, Mrs. Smith, I wanted to introduce you to JP. JP here loves gardening.” What that shows you is it shows the prospect that, hey, this is a community that I can fit in, I can get plugged in right away and really have a sense of belonging. I think that’s what’s missing in multifamily housing today.

Joe Fairless: Once they are in the door, and they say, “I love to rent,” and they do rent, do you have anything within your system that delivers on that customer service aspect, that may be outside of — or when you were talking about it, were you really thinking about that initial interaction and impression with them?

JP Albano: Yeah, the initial interaction and impression is the biggest part, because they’re really just not going to get that anywhere else. At least not that I have experienced thus far.

Joe Fairless: Based on your experience as a real estate investor, what’s your best real estate investing advice ever?

JP Albano: If you’re early in your (we’ll call it) active investing or real estate investing career, you really need to show that you can close deals with brokers to win deals. It’s a very competitive market. So you’ve got two options, in my opinion – either buy a small property and you grow bigger over time. Eventually, you’ll gain credibility and the experience to show that you can close deals, and incrementally growing the unit size and your account a bit at a time.

Alternatively, option two is you partner with a more experienced person or group. Maybe you seek to add value in some way, offer help to raise capital by introducing your friends and family to them so they can start to build relationship with those deal sponsors. I guess, in a short time, you’ll start being part of the general partnership pool and you can point to those deals while you build up your investor base, allowing you to have more street cred, if you will, with those brokers, and give you the opportunity to really scale your business and scale your real estate career a lot faster.

Joe Fairless: We’re gonna do a lightning round. Are you ready for the Best Ever lightning round?

JP Albano: Bring it.

Joe Fairless: Alright, let’s do it. First, a quick word from our best ever partners.

Break: [00:22:45]:03] to [00:23:33].10]

Joe Fairless: What’s the best ever resource that you use in your business that you couldn’t live without?

JP Albano: Neighborhood Scout.

Joe Fairless: What do you use it for? Neighborhood research? [laughs] As soon as I asked that question, I was like, “Oh, that’s a dumb follow-up question,” but will you elaborate a little bit?

JP Albano: Glad to. So Neighborhood Scout is a great first pass tool to use to help get a sense of what a neighborhood or a market looks like where a property’s located without physically being there. Especially if it’s a market that you’re unfamiliar with, it’s a great way to get a sense of what the crime rate looks like, what the schools look like, what’s the median income… All the basic things you want to know before you make a decision if it’s worth to go physically there and visit this property.

Joe Fairless: Best ever book you’ve recently read.

JP Albano: Becoming Supernatural by Dr. Joe Dispenza.

Joe Fairless: What’s the best ever way you like to give back to your community?

JP Albano: So I’m an accountability coach with the Jake & Gino group. I enjoy helping students, I’m super passionate about real estate and also growth and personal development. So I like helping get them into the game. I also really enjoy pointing people in hopeful directions around health-related issues, as I’m very passionate about bio-hacking and health and fitness.

Joe Fairless: How can the Best Ever listeners learn more about what you’re doing?

JP Albano: Check me out on jpalbano.com.

Joe Fairless: JP, thank you for being on the show. Thanks for talking about how you’ve built your portfolio, how you’ve partnered with others, some lessons learned on that 300 student housing project for what to do, questions to ask, and then just your overall approach to business. So thank you for being on the show. Hope you have a best ever day. Talk to you again soon.

JP Albano: Thank you so much show. I really appreciate you.

Website disclaimer

This website, including the podcasts and other content herein, are made available by Joesta PF LLC solely for informational purposes. The information, statements, comments, views and opinions expressed in this website do not constitute and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC are providing or undertaking to provide any financial, economic, legal, accounting, tax or other advice in or by virtue of this website. The information, statements, comments, views and opinions provided in this website are general in nature, and such information, statements, comments, views and opinions are not intended to be and should not be construed as the provision of investment advice by Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC to that listener or generally, and do not result in any listener being considered a client or customer of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC.

The information, statements, comments, views, and opinions expressed or provided in this website (including by speakers who are not officers, employees, or agents of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC) are not necessarily those of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC, and may not be current. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC make any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any of the information, statements, comments, views or opinions contained in this website, and any liability therefor (including in respect of direct, indirect or consequential loss or damage of any kind whatsoever) is expressly disclaimed. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC undertake any obligation whatsoever to provide any form of update, amendment, change or correction to any of the information, statements, comments, views or opinions set forth in this podcast.

No part of this podcast may, without Joesta PF LLC’s prior written consent, be reproduced, redistributed, published, copied or duplicated in any form, by any means.

Joe Fairless serves as director of investor relations with Ashcroft Capital, a real estate investment firm. Ashcroft Capital is not affiliated with Joesta PF LLC or this website, and is not responsible for any of the content herein.

Oral Disclaimer

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are provided for informational purposes only, and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. For more information, go to www.bestevershow.com.

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JF2082: Four Decades of Raising Capital With Ken Holman

Ken has over 40 years of real estate investing experience and has done all types of real estate deals like self-storage, industrial properties, golf courses, retail lots, and apartments. Ken has had to raise money multiple times and during this episode, he shares some advice on how he raises capital and the insights he has learned over the years.

Ken Holman Real Estate Background:

  • President of Overland Group and National Association of Real Estate Advisors
  • 40 years experience in real estate
  • He has brokered, developed, constructed and owned over $500 million in real estate assets
  • Experienced in owning commercial, industrial properties, self-storage, golf courses, retail, and apartments
  • Based in Salt Lake City, UT
  • Say hi to him at: https://overlandgroupinc.com/ 

 

Click here for more info on groundbreaker.co

Best Ever Tweet:

“Make sure every deal you do is a good deal. Don’t settle for mediocre projects because you’re anxious to get started.” – Ken Holman


TRANSCRIPTION

Theo Hicks: Hello, Best Ever listeners, and welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Theo Hicks, and today we’ll be speaking with Ken Holman. Ken, how are you doing today?

Ken Holman: I’m great, how are you doing?

Theo Hicks: I’m doing great as well, thanks for asking and thanks for joining us. I’m looking forward to our conversation. A little bit about Ken – he is the president of Overland Group and National Association of Real Estate Advisors. He has 40 years of experience in real estate; he has brokered, developed, constructed and owned over 500 million dollars in real estate assets. Experienced in owning commercial and industrial properties, self-storage, golf courses, retail and apartments.

He’s based in Salt Lake City, Utah, and you can say hi to him at OverlandGroupInc.com. So Ken, do you mind telling us a little bit more about your background and what you’re focused on today?

Ken Holman: I’d be happy to. I guess the primary thing that I’ve been involved with over the years has been apartment development. I think I’ve done a dozen or more large apartment projects, ranging anywhere from probably 150 units up to 440 units. Along the way, that’s led to other opportunities. We’ve done several retail projects, mainly Dollar Store type investments… And built a golf course, done some other industrial and office properties. But the core business has been primarily apartments, and also self-storage projects.

What we’re doing today is we’re building an apartment project in St. George, Utah. 116 apartment units. We’re really excited about that. We raised about six million in investment capital on that real estate syndication… And we are doing a couple deals over in Mesa, Arizona. One’s a 580-unit self-storage project. We raised about 2,5 million on that project. It started construction this week, so we’re excited about that.

We’ve got a 240-unit apartment project we’re doing over there, and a 100-room hotel that we’re doing also in Mesa. We raised about 15 million, which has been fully-subscribed, on the 240-unit apartment development… And then the hotel – we haven’t started that raise yet, but… That’s what our company does.

We’re a fully-integrated real estate company. We do brokerage, construction development, capital raising through our syndication, and also property management. So we try to cover the whole gamut of real estate projects, from beginning to end.

Theo Hicks: Thank you for sharing that background. I think a lot of our listeners are gonna be interested in some of your money-raising tactics. You talked about a six-million-dollar raise, a 2.5-million-dollar raise, a 15-million-dollar raise… Do you mind giving us a few tips? Firstly focusing on someone who’s just wanting to get started raising money. And we’re gonna also talk about some tips on scaling to being able to raise over 15 million dollars for a deal.

Ken Holman: Yeah, that’s a big deal actually, to be able to raise that much on a single project… But I started out with my first deal being a little family Dollar Store that we were gonna build in Thermopolis, Wyoming, of all places. I needed to raise $150,000, and I started thinking “Okay, how do I do this?” You get a little reluctant going to family and friends, and trying to beg money from them… So what got me started was I had a self-directed IRA company approach me and ask me if I would give a presentation to them on that particular little family Dollar deal.

So we went over to Boise, Idaho, of all places, and gave a presentation, and walked out of there with 150k in commitments… And I thought “Man, this is pretty fun.” That was a cool way to raise equity capital, so we started getting pretty familiar with how to do self-directed IRAs. Then that branched into self-directed 401K’s, then we developed our expertise in doing 1031 tax-deferred exchange deals.

Then we started getting a reputation for being able to raise discretionary income, and that’s how it all began… It just started evolving. In fact, I don’t know that there’s anybody else out there doing this, because it’s a pretty sophisticated model. But we can take people with discretionary investment capital, with 1031 exchanges and with IRAs and 401K’s, and marry them all into a single project. It gives us a capacity to raise a lot of investment capital that way.

And then we’ve tied in with a couple money-raising funds that really love our projects… And that’s just expanded our capacity to be able to raise equity capital. So it’s been kind of a fun ride, and you’ve gotta have some good people around you to be able to put those deals together… But I think we do, and we’ve developed a really nice product.

Theo Hicks: That was another question I was gonna ask you, it was about your team… But I do wanna ask one follow-up question. Well, I guess two. One will be quick. So we talked about how you’re able to take 1031 exchange investors, IRA investors, 401K investors and wrap them into a single project. You mentioned that is very sophisticated… Just very quickly, if someone wants to do something like that, where can they go to learn more about how to do that process, or is that something they should talk to their securities attorney about? What advice do you have for that kind of person?

Ken Holman: I’ve had to educate some securities attorneys and some 1031 intermediaries on how to do this… So I don’t know that you can go to one single source and get some guidance on how to do it. I’ll give you a quick overview of how it’s done, but that’s where the secret sauce is. That’s why I want everybody who come to our company to be able to do that.

LLCs have the ability to sell basically units, ownership interests in the LLC, and you can bring in investor capital that way. Self-directed IRAs and self-directed 401K’s – the same thing; they can buy units or ownership interest in LLCs. But 1031 tax-deferred exchanges don’t have the ability to do that. They have to do like-kind exchanges; so you’re selling one investment property and buying another investment property.

We see a lot of people with smaller single-family homes, duplexes, fourplexes, that are kind of tired of doing management themselves and would like to get into bigger projects that have more potential, and the possibility of higher returns… So often we see them sell their assets and 1031 into one of our deals. I usually limit the amount of 1031 capital to basically the value of the land. So they can 1031 into the land that we’re acquiring or have acquired, and then we marry that all into what’s called a tenant-in-common agreement, or some people call it a TIC agreement.

TIC agreements in the past have been a bit of a dirty word for 1031 investors, just simply because they’ve been mismanaged, or you get somebody in there that doesn’t know what they’re doing. In our case, it just becomes the mechanism that we use to blend the 1031’s with the LLC investors. So that – you’ve got more than I tell anybody else almost.

Theo Hicks: [laughs] I really appreciate you sharing that with us. Okay, so my other question is you mentioned that one of the reasons why you’re able to do a sophisticated process like this, able to raise so much money is the team. Let’s say I’ve got a business and I’m ready to bring on my first team member; who’s the first person I should bring on?

Ken Holman: That depends… You’ve gotta have a good acquisitions person. That usually is me. I like to handle the acquisition side of our business. And then the supporting cast… I’ve got a son who’s a CPA, and he runs our accounting and our investor relations department, and he and I team up on the development side… So you’ve gotta have somebody that understands acquisitions, somebody that understands development… Reporting is a big deal when you’re raising investment capital. And I didn’t understand that early on, and that’s probably one of the bigger mistakes that I made – I just raised the money and thought “Okay, we’ll do this deal and I will tell everybody when it’s done and we’ll get going, and we’ll make distributions as the project stabilizes.” And we did that, but I have found that investor communication is a real key.

You’ve gotta keep them informed and let them know what’s going on every step of the way. If you do that, they begin to trust you and you develop a relationship with them where they not only wanna do one deal with you, they wanna do several deals with you. So that’s been a side of the business my son Mike brought into the program.

And then because we also do construction, you’ve gotta have a good construction team. Our model is we don’t try to self-perform all of the scopes of work on a construction project; we just oversee the whole project. So we do project management, project engineering estimating and superintending. So we put our superintendent on a project, but we don’t try to self-perform all of the sub-trades. That’s made it so we can move around the country and work in almost any state, which is really good. We’ve been in probably seven or eight states now that we’re licensed in, which is good.

Then you need a securities attorney, and there are different types of securities attorneys, frankly. There are some that throw more roadblocks up than actually are helpful in getting  the private placement memorandum done. And/or they’ll make the private placement memorandum, which is called the PPM, so darn difficult, and with so much legalese in it that it scares away the investors.

So you’ve gotta be able to work with a securities attorney that understands investing and how to work with investors, so that you get all of the disclosure in there that you need to, but you’re not putting so much difficult language in there that it scares people away.

And then obviously you need to develop several sources of fundraising. That includes doing your own webinars, things like what we’re doing here today. Also, any other funds that like to invest with you… And they’re out there, but they’re also looking for really experienced people. So they generally won’t work with a newbie right out of the gate.

Theo Hicks: Perfect. Okay, Ken, so for someone who wants to  be in your position and have been involved in over 500 million dollars in real estate transactions, what is your best ever advice?

Ken Holman: Oh, my gosh… Best ever advice maybe is two or three-fold. One, make sure that every deal you do is a good deal. Don’t settle for mediocre projects because you’re anxious to get started. That would be number one. Number two, do what you say you’re gonna do. When you’re raising equity capital, do the very best you can to inform them on what they need to do and how they need to do it and what your timeframes are, and then work really hard to stick with those.

And then I guess the last piece of advice is communicate. Just keep them informed every step of the way; whether you’ve got good news for them or bad news for them, make sure you’re always there, telling them where you are and what you’re doing, and if it’s bad news, just be straightforward with them and let them know where you’re at. They’d rather hear that than not hear anything.

Theo Hicks: Okay, Ken, are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?

Ken Holman: Oh, my gosh… I guess. Let’s try it and see what happens. I  may fail, but you never know.

Theo Hicks: Okay. First, a quick word from our Best Ever sponsor.

Break: [00:16:36].23] to [00:17:20].15]

Theo Hicks: Okay, what is the Best Ever book you’ve recently read?

Ken Holman: What did I really like right now that I’m reading, I’m kind of excited about is a book called “Start With Why” by a guy named Simon Sinek. He talks a little bit about how great leaders motivate and inspire other people, so that’s been kind of a fun book to read.

Theo Hicks: If your business were to collapse today, what would you do next?

Ken Holman: I’ve been in this business 40 years,  man… I’d retire. I’ve had some people already tell me I should retire, but I’m having too much fun, so I don’t see any reason to stop yet. But if my business were to collapse, I’d probably take a little time off, buy a new suit, and then I would probably get started again, doing exactly what I’m doing… Because I’ve learned how to do it, and frankly I’m pretty good at it, so… I think it’d be possible to do it again.

Theo Hicks: What deal did you lose the most money on? How much did you lose, and then what lessons did you learn moving forward?

Ken Holman: Well, I’ve been in the business enough years that I’ve been through more than one real estate cycle, and probably the hardest real estate cycle that we dealt with was back in the Resolution Trust Corporation days, when the 1986 tax reform act happened… And they didn’t even have what was called passive losses; they didn’t have those. But the losses that you generated in real estate through depreciation, you could write off against ordinary income. They disallowed all of that; it completely changed the business. 5,000 savings and loans went out of business, and we really struggled with properties. During that era, occupancies went from 90 down to 50, and we lost some properties back then, as did everybody else. Some of the big players went out of business… So that was just not a good era.

Today I see this Coronavirus and I see a few things happening, but what we’ve got going on right now in terms of its impact on the real estate business is just not that great compared to what some other downturns have had… So that’s my worst situation; it’s a long answer to a short question, sorry.

Theo Hicks: I didn’t know about that, so thanks for sharing that. So what is the best ever way you like to give back?

Ken Holman: I have two or three ways that I give back. I’ve been a member of Rotary International for a long time. I was one of the founding members of my club here that we formed, and they have a program called the Paul Harris Fellowship, which is with the Rotary Foundation, and you can contribute money to that, and then that goes into all sorts of humanitarian efforts.

I also contribute to a humanitarian program with our local church. And then I’ve helped organize several Blood Drives with the American Red Cross, which has been cool.

Theo Hicks: And then lastly, what is the best ever place to reach you?

Ken Holman: Probably the easiest place to reach me is on my email address, which is kholman [at] overlandcorp.com. You reach me there at any time and Natalie, my assistant, just keeps on top of that, so we’re pretty good at responding when we get emails.

Theo Hicks: Well, Ken, I really appreciate you coming on the show today and sharing your advice, and I also appreciate you sharing your email address. So Best Ever listeners, make sure you take advantage of that. It’s rare that a guest with this much experience gives away his personal email address… So make sure, again,  you take advantage of that.

Just to summarize some of the biggest takeaways that I had – you kind of gave away your secret sauce a little bit about raising capital…

Ken Holman: Don’t tell anybody, okay?

Theo Hicks: I promise I won’t tell anyone. So you wanna relisten and listen to that. You also gave us some advice on what to do to get to the point of being able to raise such large amount of capital, and sort of how you started with a small $150,000 raise, and obviously are up to 15+ million dollar raises… It sounds like it is just slowly stepping your way up and gaining reputation, and as you do more and more, you learn more, you know more, and you attract more and you attract more people to you, assuming you’ve been successful.

Ken Holman: Yeah.

Theo Hicks: And then also you  mentioned how you eventually were able to work with funds as well, so I’m sure that was also helpful.

Ken Holman: Yeah.

Theo Hicks: You broke down the different team members that someone would need to do what you do, and then you gave your three-fold best ever advice for someone who wants to grow  up to doing 500 million dollars’ worth of transactions. Number one, make sure that every deal you do is a good deal, so don’t settle just because you’re anxious to get started into your first deal. Number two is to do what you say you’re going to do in raising capital; whatever you say that you’re gonna do to your investors – make sure you stick to that. And then number three was to communicate with your investors. Keep them informed every step of the way, with the good news and the bad news. They’re rather hear the bad news from you than not hear it until it starts affecting their money.

Ken, again, I really appreciate you coming on the show and joining us today. Best Ever listeners, as always, thank you for listening, have a best ever day, and we will talk to you tomorrow.

Website disclaimer

This website, including the podcasts and other content herein, are made available by Joesta PF LLC solely for informational purposes. The information, statements, comments, views and opinions expressed in this website do not constitute and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC are providing or undertaking to provide any financial, economic, legal, accounting, tax or other advice in or by virtue of this website. The information, statements, comments, views and opinions provided in this website are general in nature, and such information, statements, comments, views and opinions are not intended to be and should not be construed as the provision of investment advice by Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC to that listener or generally, and do not result in any listener being considered a client or customer of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC.

The information, statements, comments, views, and opinions expressed or provided in this website (including by speakers who are not officers, employees, or agents of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC) are not necessarily those of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC, and may not be current. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC make any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any of the information, statements, comments, views or opinions contained in this website, and any liability therefor (including in respect of direct, indirect or consequential loss or damage of any kind whatsoever) is expressly disclaimed. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC undertake any obligation whatsoever to provide any form of update, amendment, change or correction to any of the information, statements, comments, views or opinions set forth in this podcast.

No part of this podcast may, without Joesta PF LLC’s prior written consent, be reproduced, redistributed, published, copied or duplicated in any form, by any means.

Joe Fairless serves as director of investor relations with Ashcroft Capital, a real estate investment firm. Ashcroft Capital is not affiliated with Joesta PF LLC or this website, and is not responsible for any of the content herein.

Oral Disclaimer

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are provided for informational purposes only, and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. For more information, go to www.bestevershow.com.

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JF2074: Ashcroft Underwriting Adjustments During COVID-19 | Syndication School with Theo Hicks

Theo is back with another Syndication School episode and this time he is going over how Joe and his team at Ashcroft Capital are making adjustments to how they underwrite future deals during this pandemic. 

To listen to other Syndication School series about the “How To’s” of apartment syndications and to download your FREE document, visit SyndicationSchool.com. Thank you for listening and I will talk to you tomorrow. 

Click here for more info on groundbreaker.co


TRANSCRIPTION

Joe Fairless: There needed to be a resource on apartment syndication that not only talked about each aspect of the syndication process, but how to actually do each of the things, and go into it in detail… And we thought “Hey, why not make it free, too?” That’s why we launched Syndication School.

Theo Hicks will go through a particular aspect of apartment syndication on today’s episode, and get into the details of how to do that particular thing. Enjoy this episode, and for more on apartment syndication and how to do things, go to apartmentsyndication.com, or to learn more about the Apartment Syndication School, go to syndicationschool.com, so you can listen to all the previous episodes.

 

Theo Hicks: Hi, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to another episode of the Syndication School series, a free resource focused on the how-to’s of apartment syndication. As always, I am your host, Theo Hicks.

Each week we air two podcast episodes that focus on a specific aspect of the apartment syndication investment strategy. For the majority of these episodes we offer a free resource that will help you along your apartment syndication journey. All of these free resources, as well as free Syndication School episodes can be found at SyndicationSchool.com.

In this episode we’re going to go back to talking about the Coronavirus. We took off about a week or so, and we’re gonna jump back into it because today I want to talk about some of the changes that Joe and Ashcroft Capital are making to their underwriting of value-add apartment deals during and then probably after the Coronavirus pandemic.

The purpose of this episode is going to be to outline the four main changes that Ashcroft Capital is making to the underwriting of new deals currently, and then for the — I won’t say foreseeable future, but at least for maybe the next few months after the Coronavirus pandemic is over.

Overall, the underwriting changes really need to be on a deal-by-deal basis, because different markets have different rules as it relates to Coronavirus. This means that the economy is being impacted differently… But there are a few items – four items in fact – that Ashcroft thinks are important to consider.

First is going to be year one operations. It should be expected that there will be an increase in things like vacancy, bad debt and concessions throughout 2020. And then once things settle down a bit and the economy reopens, it is also possible that some residents will no longer be able to afford living at the property. So the two things – number one, some of the income loss items, like vacancy, bad debt and concessions. When you’re making your assumptions, you should be projecting that they will be higher than usual. Based off of the T-12 or current market rates, you can’t really use those for vacancy, bad debt and concessions right now, because it’s a different environment, and once the Coronavirus ends, it will also likely be a different environment.

Secondly, once the economy reopens, the residents that are currently living at that property – so if you buy a property now, once rent repayment programs are ended, or rent delays are ended, evictions are allowed again, maybe expect to have to evict more tenants than you usually have to, because they’ve just been living there and maybe paying partial rent, or just doing what they could… But once it’s over, they can no longer pay the full amount. That’s year-one operations.

Number two is rent growth. The rent growth for 2020 in the vast majority of markets is projected to suffer, as unemployment rises. But the silver lining is that most of any rent lost in 2020 is expected to be recovered in 2021. From my understanding – I believe I’ve talked about this in one of the episodes – the rent growth is supposed to suffer; rent growth isn’t gonna go negative, it’s just going to be less. I’m pretty sure the most recent calculation I saw was about 1.3% percent, as opposed to 2%, 3%, 4% we’ve been seeing for the past decade or so.

Apparently, this dip is supposed to be temporary… So this dip in rent growth to the 1% range is temporary, and then in 2021 it’s supposed to go back to what it has been before. Obviously, when you’re underwriting a deal, the year one rent growth and year two rent growth should reflect the immediate area and the demand in the market. So obviously, you don’t wanna just use the 1% average. You wanna figure out “Okay, what do the experts think will  happen to rent in this specific market in the next two years?” And then probably be even more conservative and assume that it might be less than that. That way if it’s better, great. If not, then you’re still able to hit your returns to your investors.

Where does this information come from? Your management company. We’ve talked about the importance of your property management company, how to find a property management company, so you can find all that information at SyndicationSchool.com.

Number three is going to be debt. As of right now, most private lenders – these are basically the bridge lenders; the ones that do the 2-3 year renovation type loans – are taking a pause from lending. But lenders that are still active are being extremely conservative with their loan proceeds and terms.

I talked in a previous Syndication School episode about JP Morgan Chase, for example, has changed their lending criteria; this is for residential loans, I understand that, but it’s just an example of a lender becoming extremely conservative. They’re only lending to borrowers with a credit score of 700 or more, and who can put down 20% or more. So that definitely limits the pool of people who can get residential mortgages.

Similarly, other lenders are doing the same for commercial loans. I think one of the biggest changes is the reserve amounts that are required. Now, the agencies are lending, but they are also being conservative on their underwriting and requiring large upfront reserves for debt service payments. So the reserve requirements are changing. Typically, you create an  upfront reserves account called an operating account for unexpected things that happen at the property, but now in addition to that you need another upfront amount of reserves that are a lender requirement.

So more conservatives proceeds should be underwritten, and the underwriting needs to include these upfront reserves, as they will  impact the equity required to fund. So you’re gonna need to raise additional money now from your investors, even though the cashflow is not going to be going up. Typically, if the deal is cash-flowing $100 per door and you need to raise X amount of money, well now that deal might be cash-flowing $75 per door and you need to raise even more money from your investors. That’s why if you’re looking at deals right now, you’re gonna have to negotiate a lower purchase price because of these new lending criteria, and the rent growth, and the year-one operations that I’ve talked about previously.

So what does that mean more practically? Make sure that you ask your lender or your mortgage broker about the new loan-to-value requirements, the new upfront reserves requirements, and other terms that you need before you submit an offer on a deal. So you need to have an understanding of whatever lender you’ve been using or you plan on using, what are the terms of the loans they’re offering, what are the LTV terms, how much money do you need to put down, how much money do you need as upfront reserves, what are the interest rates, what’s the amortization? Is there anything that I need to  know that’s changing, so that I can underwrite my deals properly? Because if you don’t know what the debt is going to be, it’s gonna be impossible to submit correct offers on deals.

And then lastly, for value-add deals, depending on the deal, many owners are pausing their interior renovation programs until the market is restabilized… So when you’re underwriting a deal, it may be wise to assume that the value-add program does not start until the overall market stabilizes.

Now, this is something that’s gonna be obviously up to you, depending on the state you’re investing in, or the local area you’re investing in, if construction is considered an essential service, if construction companies are still working, things like that… But you need to think about “Okay, I plan on going in there, renovating all these units and doing all these exterior upgrades”, but what are the typical ways that you renovate interiors? Exterior renovations are likely fine, assuming that business is essential in your state, but interior renovations is the one that might be delayed because of the fact that residents aren’t able to move out right now.

So again, to summarize, the four changes that Ashcroft are making – and again, these four points came straight from the director of acquisitions at Ashcroft Capital – is the year-one operations. Things like vacancy, bad debt and concessions should be assumed to be higher, at least during year one. Rent growth should be assumed to be lower than  previous years, so whenever you’re underwriting your annual rent growth increases, or even when you’re determining what your rent premiums are going to be, you need to have a detailed conversation with your property management company to determine how to calculate that. So annual income growth is typically 2%-3%. You definitely wanna be underwriting maybe a 1% or 1,5% at least for year one and year two… And then when it comes to rent premiums, again, you have to see what’s the demand for those units in the immediate area? What are the prices on the newest leases in that area? It can’t be leases from a year ago or six months ago, or really even two months ago. It needs to be probably within the last few weeks to a month – what are the rents being demanded for those specific units?

Number three is debt, so making sure you have a conversation with your lender, so you know exactly what types of terms they’re offering on their loans now, including what sort of upfront reserves requirements are needed.

And then lastly, for the value-add deals, understanding that you’re likely going to need to delay any interior renovations until the market restabilizes and Covid is gone, because you’re not allowed to evict people, tenants are probably moving a lot less because of the Coronavirus… So those are four things to keep in mind when underwriting deals.

Obviously, if you are out there underwriting deals, I’d love to hear from you what you’re doing, so we can maybe add to these four points. So if you have any advice, any things that you’re doing differently when underwriting, please let me know by emailing Theo@JoeFairless.com. And of course, anyone who reaches out and I include their information – obviously, it won’t be in this episode, but I’m gonna turn this into a blog post, so I  will definitely give you a contributor status for the blog post, since you contributed to underwriting advice to the document.

That concludes this episode. To listen to other Syndication School series about the how-to’s of apartment syndication and check out some of our free documents, please visit SyndicationSchool.com.

Thank you for listening, have a best ever day, and I will talk to you soon.

Website disclaimer

This website, including the podcasts and other content herein, are made available by Joesta PF LLC solely for informational purposes. The information, statements, comments, views and opinions expressed in this website do not constitute and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC are providing or undertaking to provide any financial, economic, legal, accounting, tax or other advice in or by virtue of this website. The information, statements, comments, views and opinions provided in this website are general in nature, and such information, statements, comments, views and opinions are not intended to be and should not be construed as the provision of investment advice by Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC to that listener or generally, and do not result in any listener being considered a client or customer of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC.

The information, statements, comments, views, and opinions expressed or provided in this website (including by speakers who are not officers, employees, or agents of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC) are not necessarily those of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC, and may not be current. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC make any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any of the information, statements, comments, views or opinions contained in this website, and any liability therefor (including in respect of direct, indirect or consequential loss or damage of any kind whatsoever) is expressly disclaimed. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC undertake any obligation whatsoever to provide any form of update, amendment, change or correction to any of the information, statements, comments, views or opinions set forth in this podcast.

No part of this podcast may, without Joesta PF LLC’s prior written consent, be reproduced, redistributed, published, copied or duplicated in any form, by any means.

Joe Fairless serves as director of investor relations with Ashcroft Capital, a real estate investment firm. Ashcroft Capital is not affiliated with Joesta PF LLC or this website, and is not responsible for any of the content herein.

Oral Disclaimer

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are provided for informational purposes only, and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. For more information, go to www.bestevershow.com.

 

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JF2073: How To Calculate Class A and B Return Projections | Syndication School with Theo Hicks

In this Syndication School episode, Theo will first review the difference between Class A and Class B investors. Afterward, he will share with you how to calculate the projected returns for each class, and to follow along with Theo you can download his free excel document below.

Free Class A and Class B document

To listen to other Syndication School series about the “How To’s” of apartment syndications and to download your FREE document, visit SyndicationSchool.com. Thank you for listening and I will talk to you tomorrow. 

 

Click here for more info on groundbreaker.co


TRANSCRIPTION

Joe Fairless: There needed to be a resource on apartment syndication that not only talked about each aspect of the syndication process, but how to actually do each of the things, and go into it in detail… And we thought “Hey, why not make it free, too?” That’s why we launched Syndication School.

Theo Hicks will go through a particular aspect of apartment syndication on today’s episode, and get into the details of how to do that particular thing. Enjoy this episode, and for more on apartment syndication and how to do things, go to apartmentsyndication.com, or to learn more about the Apartment Syndication School, go to syndicationschool.com, so you can listen to all the previous episodes.

Theo Hicks: Hi, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to another episode of the Syndication School series, a free resource focused on the how-to’s of apartment syndication. As always, I’m your host, Theo Hicks. Each week we air two podcast episodes that focus on a specific aspect of the apartment syndication investment strategy.

For the majority of these episodes we offer a free document. These are free Excel template calculators, free PDF how-to guides, free PowerPoint presentation templates, some sort of resource that will help you along your apartment syndication journey. All of these free documents, and past free Syndication School series are available at SyndicationSchool.com.

In this episode we are going to talk about how to calculate the returns to limited partners when you have a two-tiered path of investment structure. What does that mean? Well, generally when people get started as syndicators, they offer one investment tier to their investors, and it’s either a preferred return only, a profit split only, or a combination of the two, with the most common being an 8% preferred return, and then a 50/50 or a 70/30 profit split.

Now, as you gain more experience, or even at first, you might decide to offer two investment tiers – class A and class B. Our episode is focusing on what are the differences between class A and class B. I’m gonna do a quick refresher on that, talking about the advantages and disadvantages of each, and then I’m gonna talk about how to actually calculate the return on investment and the internal rate of return to investment tiers.

For this episode, I’ll be giving away a free document. It will be a  calculator that will allow you to automatically calculate the ROI and the IRR based on the steps I discuss in this episode. So I’ll talk more about that free document here in a little bit.

First, let’s just do a refresher on class A and class B. Class A, investors sit behind the debt in the capital stack, which means that when all expenses are paid, including the debt, the next cash goes to the class A investors. Class A investors are offered a preferred return that is generally higher than the preferred return offered to class B investors.

On Ashcroft deals, the class A preferred return is 10%. Class A investor have virtually no upside upon disposition or capital events, nor do they receive a split of the ongoing profits. So they are getting the 10% or whatever the preferred return is, and then that is it. But in order to be taxes the same as class B investors, they do get a very small piece of the upside, that varies from deal to deal… So they do get a small piece of the upside for tax purposes, but overall they’re not given a large upside in the deal.

In Ashcroft deals the class A tier is limited to 25% of the total equity investment, and the minimum investment is $100,000. So the reason why is because let’s say year one the project cash-on-cash return is only 7%, and you may say “Oh, well I can’t pay my 10% preferred return then.” Well, if only 25% of your investors are offered a 10% preferred return, then you can hit that preferred return of 10% to that portion of investors. I’m not sure exactly how that math will work out, but as long as these class A investors aren’t making up a large portion of your investor pool, then you don’t need to have a 10% project cash-on-cash return to distribute 10% to the class A limited partners.

Now, of course, other syndicators may offer a different preferred return, or have different equity percentages or different minimum investments. That’s just what Ashcroft does currently, and I just wanted to give you an example.

Class B investors sit behind class A, so all expenses go out, including debt, and then class A investors get paid, and then class B investors get paid with what’s left. But they sit in front of the general partners generally in the capital stack, so they get paid before the GP is paid.

Class B  investors are offered a preferred return that is lower than the preferred return offered to class A investors. On Ashcroft deals that return is 7%, compared to that 10% for Class A. If the full preferred return cannot be paid out each month, or each quarter, or each year, depending on what the payment frequency is, then it accrues over the life of a deal.

Class B  investors do participate in upside upon disposition or capital events. On Ashcroft deals the split is 70% of the profits up to a 13% IRR, and then 50% of the profits thereafter. The Class B  minimum investment for Ashcroft is 50k for first-time investors and 25k for returning investors. Actually, now that I’m thinking about it, I think that Ashcroft recently reduced the class A minimum investment to 50k. [00:09:04].21] and really all other types of tiers offered. Syndicators may offer different preferred returns, profit splits, different minimums for these class B investors.

So since class A investors are in front of class B investors in the capital stack, they are paid first, plus the class A investors are offered a higher preferred return, therefore the class A tier is a deal for investors who prefer a stronger ongoing cashflow… So they’re more likely to get this cashflow, and it’s higher than what it would be if they were class B.

Since class B investors are sitting behind the class A investors in the capital stack, they are paid what is left over after the class A have received their preferred return. So if the full preferred return isn’t met, it accrues and is ideally paid out upon disposition or a capital event. So class A investors are offered a lower preferred return, but they do participate in the upside upon disposition or capital events like  a supplemental loan or a refinance… So the overall return over the life of a deal is higher for class B investors, compared to class A.

Class A is gonna get 10% a year, or whatever that percentage is, class B might get less than their preferred return year one, maybe 5%, but maybe eventually their cashflow goes up to 9% or 10%, but then they’ll get a massive 20% return on investment at sale over the life of the investment. It’s really at the end where they surpass the class A investors.

So the class B tier is ideal for investors who want to maximize their returns over the life of the investments. And if I’m the person who wants both – if I want strong ongoing cashflow AND to participate in the upside, typically that passive investor will be allowed to invest in both. So if you have a passive investor that wants to do both and you’re offering class A and class B, they should be able to invest a portion in class A and a portion in class B. So that’s what class A and class B are, as a reminder.

Now, how do you calculate the returns? I recommend downloading the document and having it open right now in Excel, but I will assume that you don’t have it open, and I will do  my best to explain exactly how to calculate. At the end I will discuss in more detail how the free document works. So the first thing that you need to know in order to calculate the returns to class A and class B investors are 1) total equity investment. So this is the total amount of money that you as a syndicator raised from investors for the deal, because that’s what’s gonna be their capital account and that’s what their return is gonna be based on… And then assuming it’s a five-year hold, you need the project-level cashflow; that’s income minus expenses gives you the NOI. NOI minus debt service gives you the cashflow. So you need the cashflow for year one through year five, as well as the sales proceeds.

Basically, you have year zero a negative amount of money technically, because that’s what the investors are paying, and then year one, year two, year three, year four, year five you’ve got your cashflow coming in positively, and then for the sales proceeds it’s just the profit remaining after all expenses are paid at sale. If you’ve downloaded the simplified cashflow calculator, it should be as easy and copy and pasting these figures into this model. As a reminder, the sales proceeds is the sales price minus the debt owed to the lender, minus any closing costs you need to pay for, minus any other costs associated with the sale, like disposition fees, broker’s fees… And then what’s remaining is the total sales proceeds. So that’s one bucket of numbers that you need.

Next you need to determine what the structure is going to be for class A and for class B. So for each, you need to know what the preferred is going to be, and what the profit split is going to be. So for the purposes of this document, the preferred return to class A is 10%, and the profit split is zero. For class B the preferred return is 7% and the profit split is 70%.

Now, the next step is to determine what that preferred return amount looks like for class A and class B. Basically, for class A you need to determine of the equity investment which portion is class A. To keep things simple, in this calculator it’s just set at 25%; obviously, you can go in there and manually adjust it if you want to. Class B is set at 75%, but you can go in there and manually-adjust it, if you want to.

So you’ve got 25% of the equity investment, you multiply that by the preferred return percentage of 10% to get the preferred return amount. Same thing for class B. So Class B  you take 75% or whatever percent of the equity investment, multiply it by the preferred return, which is 7%, and you’ve got the preferred return amount owed.

Now, if you remember, class A is paid first. So when you’re looking at your year one cashflow number, you take your year one cashflow and you subtract the class A preferred return amount completely out of there. And then what’s left over is what goes to class B investors.

Now, let’s say that year one you are able to cover the entire preferred return amount to the class A investors, but the cashflow that’s remaining is not enough to cover the preferred return owed to the class B investors. Obviously, they’re still going to get paid, but it’s not gonna be full. So in the sample cashflow calculator that you download it shows that the class B investors only get a 3% return on investment year one, as opposed to 7% preferred return that they’re owed. Every time that happens, for every year that happens, you need to track how much of the preferred return is actually accruing. So if they’re given a 3%, then they’re owed an additional 5%. So that’s going to accrue.

Now, for this particular document the way I have it set up is that it accrues and then it is paid out at sale. I’ll talk about how that happens later, but it’s not gonna be paid out the next year, it’s gonna be paid out at sale. If you want to have it paid out the next year, you’re gonna have to do some manipulations to the cashflow calculator.

Basically, you repeat that process for each year. This is how it works in this cashflow calculator. Let’s say at year two you take your full cashflow  for year two, you pay your class A investors their preferred return if the remaining amount is greater than the preferred return owed to the class B investors. So class B gets their full 7%, so the profits remaining after the 10% is paid to the class A, after 7% is paid to class B, that extra cashflow is going to be split. In this case, 70% goes to class B and 30% goes to the general partners.

Now, typically, profits are considered a return of capital, preferred return is considered a return on capital. So whenever capital is returned to them, then their capital account reduces. Now, in Ashcroft deals the preferred return is always gonna be based on the original investment, and then the general partners will catch up at sale. So what that means is whenever the class B investors are receiving a profit split, you need to track that so that you understand “Okay, after five years I’ve returned a  total of $15,000 to investors from this profit”, because they’ve got $15,000 in profit, therefore they’ve been returned $15,000. Therefore at sale, I’m gonna return them their full equity minus that $15,000 they’ve already received.

Basically, the two things that you need to track whenever you’re paying out your class B investors is if they’re not receiving their full preferred return, how much is accruing that year, and then number two, if they received a profit split, how much profit do they make, because that’s something you need to track, because that’s considered a return of capital.

So you repeat that process for years one, years two, year threes, year four and year five. When you do that, you should have a total class A accrued preferred return number, and a total return of capital from the profit split for the class B investors.

Obviously, if you aren’t able to distribute the full 10% preferred return to the class A investors, then the same concept applies… But since they’re not receiving a split of the profits, you only need to focus on the preferred return accrual and not anything about them receiving a return of capital, because they’re not.

Alright, so now you sell the deal and you have your sales proceeds calculation… So you’ve already copied and pasted the sales proceeds into the cashflow calculator… So now you need to determine which portion of the sales proceeds goes to class A, and which portion goes to class B. If you remember, class A is in front of class B in the waterfall, so class A gets their equity back first. That one’s pretty simple, because class A did not get a return of capital, so they receive their entire equity investment back. So the sales proceeds are a little bit less.

Next is the money that goes back to the class B investors. If  you remember, they’re owed three things at sale. First, they’re gonna be owed their equity back. So the equity they receive is going to be their total equity investment minus whatever capital they’ve received thus far as profits. So if they’ve received $15,000 in profits, it’ll be their total equity investment originally, minus $15,000 which is returned.

The second thing that’s returned to them is the preferred return that they’re owed. So whatever the total accrued preferred return number is, that is also owed to class B investors. So it’s the equity owed, plus preferred return owed. Lastly, it’s going to be the profit split. So whatever is left over after the class A is paid, class B has received their equity investment back, class B has received their accrued  preferred return, the  remaining profits are split 70/30 between the class B investors and the general partners.

Now, if you have some sort of tier structure where it’s based on IRR, and once there’s a 13% IRR it drops to 50%, you’re gonna have to do that calculation on the back-end, because that’s not what this does. This is just a straight-up profit split, just to keep things simple.

So the remaining profits are multiplied by 70%, and that also goes to the class B investors. So if you’re got profits of class B investors, plus preferred return owed to investors, plus equity to class B investors. So now you have a total proceeds to the class A, which is just their equity investment, and a total proceeds to class B.

Now what you wanna do is you wanna create a data table so that you can do your IRR and your ROI calculations. The ROI calculation is pretty simple – it’s just their initial equity investment divided by the money that they’ve received each year; so year ones, two, three and four it’s just the cashflow they’ve received… So for the class A it’s always gonna be 10%, for class B it’s gonna be ideally 7%, maybe lower at first, and maybe eventually higher… And then same thing for year five, but this actually includes the sales proceeds as well, so it’s gonna be a number that’s ideally over 100%. Then you can average all those to get your annualized cash-on-cash return.

Then for the IRR calculation, it’s just an Excel function where you basically do =IRR and then you highlight year zero through year five, and then it’ll give you what the IRR is.

Now, let’s talk about how to use this model. On the document that you’ll see there are a few locations that you need to input data. Basically, everywhere you input data, it’s gonna be in red, to make it very simple for you.

So you need to input the initial equity investment year one, two, three, four and five, project-level cashflow, the total sales proceeds for project-level, and then the preferred return percentage and the profit split for class A and class B. Once you input those numbers, it’ll automatically calculate year one through five cashflow for class A and class B, as well as the return on investment and the internal rate of return. So it’s essentially a very simple calculator.

And again, where you get the equity investment year one, two, three, four and five and sales proceeds numbers from – that comes from your simplified cashflow calculator that you gave away a while ago now. So if you wanna find that, go to SyndicationSchool.com to download that document.

That concludes this episode of Syndication School. Thanks for listening. Make sure you download your free calculator for calculating class A and class B return projections. Check out some of our other Syndication School episodes and those free documents as well.

Have a best ever day, and I will talk to you tomorrow.

Website disclaimer

This website, including the podcasts and other content herein, are made available by Joesta PF LLC solely for informational purposes. The information, statements, comments, views and opinions expressed in this website do not constitute and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC are providing or undertaking to provide any financial, economic, legal, accounting, tax or other advice in or by virtue of this website. The information, statements, comments, views and opinions provided in this website are general in nature, and such information, statements, comments, views and opinions are not intended to be and should not be construed as the provision of investment advice by Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC to that listener or generally, and do not result in any listener being considered a client or customer of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC.

The information, statements, comments, views, and opinions expressed or provided in this website (including by speakers who are not officers, employees, or agents of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC) are not necessarily those of Joe Fairless or Joesta PF LLC, and may not be current. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC make any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness of any of the information, statements, comments, views or opinions contained in this website, and any liability therefor (including in respect of direct, indirect or consequential loss or damage of any kind whatsoever) is expressly disclaimed. Neither Joe Fairless nor Joesta PF LLC undertake any obligation whatsoever to provide any form of update, amendment, change or correction to any of the information, statements, comments, views or opinions set forth in this podcast.

No part of this podcast may, without Joesta PF LLC’s prior written consent, be reproduced, redistributed, published, copied or duplicated in any form, by any means.

Joe Fairless serves as director of investor relations with Ashcroft Capital, a real estate investment firm. Ashcroft Capital is not affiliated with Joesta PF LLC or this website, and is not responsible for any of the content herein.

Oral Disclaimer

The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are provided for informational purposes only, and should not be construed as an offer to buy or sell any securities or to make or consider any investment or course of action. For more information, go to www.bestevershow.com.

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JF2064: A Passive Investors Perspective During The Coronavirus With Travis Watts

 Travis is a full-time investor and the director of Investor Relations at Ashcroft Capital. Travis has written some articles on our blog to help investors during the Coronavirus pandemic we are all going through today. As a full-time passive investor, Travis gives his perspective on what he is seeing in the current market and what he is keeping an eye out for. 

Inflation article

 

Travis Watts Real Estate Background:

  • Full-time passive investor
  • Director of Investor Relations at Ashcroft Capital
  • In 2009 he started investing in multi-family, single-family, and vacation rentals
  • Based in Denver, Colorado
  • Say hi to him and grab a free passive investor guide at Ashcroft Capital

 

 

 

Click here for more info on groundbreaker.co

Best Ever Tweet:

“There is always a silver lining, there will always be opportunities that pop up. Look at this as an opportunity to educate yourself” – Travis Watts


TRANSCRIPTION

Theo Hicks: Hello, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Theo Hicks and today we’ll be speaking with Travis Watts. Travis, how are you doing today?

Travis Watts: Hey, Theo. I think I know you from somewhere, don’t I?

Theo Hicks: Yeah, I think I know from somewhere as well. If you guys don’t know, Travis is the director of investor relations at Ashcroft Capital. That’s how I know him. I met him at our first quarterly meeting. I’m looking forward to our conversation, because I haven’t been able to have a long conversation with him yet, so I’m looking forward to getting some advice… Just like you guys are looking forward to it as well.

A little bit more about Travis – he’s a full-time passive investor, as well as the director of investor relations at Ashcroft Capital. In 2009 he started investing in multifamily, single-family and vacation rentals. He’s based in Denver, Colorado, and you can say hi to him at AshcroftCapital.com. You guys should all be able to spell that by now.

Travis, before we begin, we’re gonna be talking about the Coronavirus today. Travis has some really good articles on our blog right now, so we’re gonna talk about one of those in particular, and maybe talk about the other one as well.

Before we get into that, Travis, do you mind telling us a little bit more about your background and what you’re focused on today?

Travis Watts: Sure, I appreciate that intro. So I got started in real estate, as probably a lot of people do, probably the majority of real estate investors – single-family. It kind of led to trying to scale that portfolio up… The problem that I had personally, which isn’t applicable to everyone, but I was working a full-time W-2 job, more importantly a 98-hour workweek job, where I was away from home, completely dedicated to that… And as I started trying to scale the single-family on the side, doing some flips and vacation rentals, things like that, it just got to be too hands-on for me, which — I had to go back to the drawing board, learn how to become a completely passive investor, what strategies and assets and things like that existed… And that’s where I ran into syndication investing in real estate.

I made a complete transition around 2015 through 2016, where I was selling all my single-family, I was going all-in into multifamily and syndications… So that’s brought us to the last 5-6 years. I came onboard with Ashcroft to just help spread education around passive investing and what benefits those can have for certain people’s lives.

Theo Hicks: Perfect. Thanks for sharing that. One article that I really liked was your article about inflation, and how people can benefit from the inflation from printing off two trillion dollars in cash… Do you wanna summarize that article? And then if there’s anything else you wanna talk about as it relates to inflation.

Travis Watts: Yeah, and again, I think that article is out there both on the Best Ever Community – I put it out there I think under my Bigger Pockets as well, things like that… So check it out. But the concept is pretty basic, really. This is a topic we could have talked about a year ago, two years ago, five years ago… And that’s just this idea that the Federal Reserve is printing money, every time we’re going into these crisis situations – 2008-2009, now this pandemic here being probably the worst in terms of what we’re gonna see in money printing… But that’s devaluing the purchasing power of the dollar.

There’s a lot of scary headlines out there that you read, about the mortgage crisis, and just what’s unfolding, and all this scary bad news, but here’s a way to look at it in the light of real estate, whether we’re talking single-family, multifamily, whatever. When you’re acquiring debt, so you’re going out to get a mortgage, you’re hopefully getting some long-term fixed-rate debt, depending on what you’re doing, meaning that you’re locking in a payment every month, that’s gonna be due. Let’s just call it $1,000/month for a owner-occupied home, that’s your mortgage payment. So that payment, on the debt side, is never gonna change for 15 years, 30 years, whatever kind of mortgage you get.

The idea is as we move forward and the Fed continues printing and printing, and the purchasing power of the dollar is going down and down and down, you’re basically using cheaper dollars to pay off that debt. So what is $1,000 in today’s money could be worth $200 down the road in the future. So it’s gonna make it much easier to pay off that debt long-term, and more specifically in terms of investment real estate, where tenants are paying that off anyhow. So that’s what the article is kind of about, from a high-level, for those that may not be tuned in. Yes, the Fed has already printed a couple trillion dollars, and that can quickly escalate to 4, 6, 10. I hear all kinds of numbers out there.

The scary thing to think about is — this is how inflation is created. Basically, inflation is the cost of goods going up year after year after year, so it takes more and more dollars to purchase the exact same thing, years down the road. So the crisis here, in my opinion, if you wanna look at the negative side of things, is we’ve got 2019, four trillion dollars in circulation. That’s like our money supply. So if the Fed’s gonna go and print four trillion dollars as an example, then theoretically we’re gonna have some massive inflation kicking in at some point, theoretically a doubling in price… Maybe not today or tomorrow or next year, but down the road.

So if anything, look at this in a positive light – we’ve got all-time low interest rates; it’s a great time to be refinancing projects, and potentially getting involved with real estate, if that’s something that you haven’t done yet or that you’re currently doing. So a little long-winded… There’s still hopefully some value in reading that article, but that’s the high level.

Theo Hicks: Obviously, it makes sense to get debt, but since I’ve got a $1,000 payment and I’ve got 100k (let’s say) sitting in my bank right now, and five years from now that 100k is gonna be worth 10k… Practically speaking, should I pay down my debt on my properties?

Travis Watts: Yeah, that’s a good question. The way I look at it is “What’s my alternative?” In general right now we have a lot of low interest rate debt for things like real estate, whereas a lot of folks might have at this time high interest rate debt. They might have personal loans from a bank, or credit card, or retail debt… Things they’re paying 10%, 15%, 20%, 25% annually on. That’s what I’d be focused on right now paying down.

And what I mean by alternatives – if you’ve got a 3,5% mortgage today, could that money be better utilized if you were to invest it in something that could produce a higher return? Like a 8%-10% annualized cashflow return. So I’m not giving any kind of financial advice to anybody, but it just depends on your situation, what kinds of debt you have, but certainly for the folks that are saying “I have $100,000 in the bank account. I’m just gonna let that sit and ride for the next 10-20 years as my little reserve account”, you’re most certainly gonna be losing a lot of that purchasing power over that time, so I’d be looking for ways — while safely and conservatively keeping your emergency fund in place, certain months of living expenses (3-6 months is what you commonly hear), I’d be looking at places to park that capital, things like real estate, that are kind of a hedge against inflation, somewhat.

Theo Hicks: Okay, thanks for sharing that. Changing gears a little bit – so you are a full-time passive investor… Most of the people I’ve talked to about the Coronavirus are actively investing, so we talked about rent collections, and making sure they can pay their mortgage payments, and asking how much cash reserves they have… But something that I’d be interested to ask you about as a full-time passive investor is are you still seeing opportunities to invest in right now, or has that slowed down? And if so, what’s your strategy over the next 6-12 months as a passive investor? Are you kind of in a holding pattern, are you still looking for deals? Things like that, if you could talk about that for a little bit.

Travis Watts: Yeah, absolutely. I guess the unique perspective or the benefit of not only being an investor with one group like Ashcroft, but being an investor with 14 different groups is I get invited to a lot of webinars, a lot of conference calls, I get a lot of email updates, I get a lot of “Here’s what we’re doing in terms of Covid” and all this kind of stuff… So I have a bit of a broad perspective on what a lot of folks are doing out there.

In general, this interview is taking place mid-April. This is our first real impacted month. This whole Corona thing got real serious towards the end of March, and then rent was due April 1st. So my opinion here is that a lot of people were already kind of set up and primed to pay their rent anyway. They already had it in the bank, or in their savings account… They were ready to go for April. I’m a little more concerned maybe with May and June, and however long we’re in this lockdown, and the economy is shut down, and things like that.

What I have seen more specifically, to answer your question, with these different syndication groups in general is a little bit of wait-and-see right now. It’s a little too early to start calling the shots, it’s a little too early to start saying “Oh, there’s all these new deals popping up, things like that.” It’s hard to look at a T12 statement and have that make a lot of sense, looking at 2019 numbers, when now we’re in this state where we don’t know what our collections are gonna end up being. So I’m a bit of the same mindset.

I did invest in some recent deal that have closed through the March timeframe, and I think one in April… But at this point I’m focused more on making sure I have adequate cash reserves personally on hand, in case things pop up; capital calls, whatever. Or best-case scenario, I just hoard a little bit of cash and then maybe by late summer there’s some deals popping up that make a lot of sense to get involved with, and we’ll have the cash to do it.

So that’s kind of where I sit. It’s a little bit of sit-and-wait probably through April and May, and hopefully we’ll know a whole lot more in June, and hopefully the numbers start making sense again, and the economy starts reopening. But we’ll see. Who knows.

Theo Hicks: Exactly. So definitely wait and see right now. So you mentioned that you’re getting a lot of communications from either deals you’re investing in with all types of sponsors… Do you mind walking us through, as a passive investor, what types of communication you’re getting from syndicators? More specifically, maybe tell us what a good communication looks like at a time like this, and maybe some things that you see and it’s kind of making you worry when you consider a bad communication.

Travis Watts: Something I’d talk about on the podcast is why I like syndicate groups that not only distribute monthly distributions, but hand-in-hand they report monthly. I think in a time like this it means a lot. No one wants to sit here 3-4 months to wait on an update to see how their property is doing.

Some groups to this point that are quarterly that I’ve invested with have literally sent out one communication since this whole thing started to unfold… And I don’t appreciate that. I’m all about transparency and proactiveness, communication… So what does that prompt investors to do? Call. Email. Just bug you to death. So why don’t you just get the information out?

What am I seeing is a lot to do with helping the tenants, helping educate how they can file for unemployment if they’ve lost their jobs, how they can maybe get on some kind of payment plan and maybe make a half payment on the first and a half payment on the 15th, resources for companies hiring in the local area… There’s obviously some businesses somewhat thriving right now. It’s kind of a weird word to use… Amazon’s hiring, grocery stores are hiring… There’s a lot of opportunities. I invest mostly in workforce housing, B and C class properties, so a lot of these folks are in an income range of 30k to maybe 60k/year household income… So a lot of opportunities are available for folks like that, depending on the area where your property is located.

So in general, that’s the communication I’ve been getting – let’s wait and see how collections pan out, and here’s where we are as of today, and how does that compare to the previous quarter. Look,  I don’t need a communication every day, because it doesn’t make a lot of sense, but I think at least a monthly communication is ideal. A lot of groups have been doing webinars, Q&A calls, things like that… And I think that goes a long way as well in a crisis situation like this.

Theo Hicks: Another article that you wrote on the website – and I’m sure it’s on LinkedIn and your Bigger Pockets profile as well – is about the mortgage crisis. Do you mind talking about that for a little bit?

Travis Watts: Sure. That one’s a little more technical. I think there’s a lot of key elements that are just probably better read through the article itself… But basically, what you’ve been hearing a lot in the headlines is things like this mortgage forbearance, or people aren’t paying their mortgages, they’re not paying the rent… Well, the thing is there’s a chain effect here. It starts with, let’s say, the homeowners saying “I’m not gonna make my mortgage payment”. But then what a lot of people don’t understand is that mortgages are often sold. And they’re sold, they’re wrapped up into collateralized mortgage obligations, investments basically that people can invest in, where you’re investing in different tranches, and things like that…

So you’ve got the bank or the lender, you’ve got the tenant, and then you’ve got the investment, then you’ve got the investors behind the scenes there… And it’s like “Who’s left holding the bag here?” That’s kind of what the crisis is – trying to figure out what kind of stimulus is coming for who exactly; it’s gonna start with probably the person that’s supposed to be paying their rent or their mortgage, and then it’s gonna go as a trickle-down effect. But it could completely implode parts of the lending industry… So it really is a crisis in a sense, but… Anyway, there’s much more detail that’s probably better found in the article… But yeah, that was another recent one that I’ve just put out.

Theo Hicks: You don’t have to answer this question if you don’t have to, because I’m putting you on the spot, but I did read recently that Chase changed their mortgage criteria… So they’re only lending to people that have a credit score of 700 or higher, and then 20% down payments… Which seems to be one of the first residential lending institutions to make changes such as that.

I guess my question would be “Do you think that that is gonna be an opening for other lending institutions to also change their lending criteria?” And if yes, what kind of effect do you think it’ll have on the overall real estate market?

Travis Watts: Yeah, I’m happy to give a high-level overview… And that’s kind of how that article ends, that I wrote – what are the practical takeaways here? Well, if you’re selling a home, it may be a little bit harder, for obvious reasons, to get a buyer, just because people aren’t getting out as much, or they  may not be in the investment market space as much right now… But more importantly, to your point, someone who’s qualified. So which lenders are still lending? And if they are, like you said, I think that banks are gonna be tightening up quite a bit right now… Obviously, to lower their risk. They don’t want any defaults, and there’s probably a lot of defaults coming their way.

In fact today – maybe yesterday – was the earnings report for a lot of banks, and they’re in a bad place right now. They see a bit of a grim immediate future here, at least talking through the next quarter. With all of this mortgage forbearance, and people not paying, and unemployment spiking… It’s a tough time to be a bank.

If you’re buying – to your point – you may have to have a little bit better credit, you may need to put a little bit  more down… If you’re selling, it’s a little harder to find a qualified buyer… Obviously, that’s gonna have an effect in the residential space, of course, 100%. But in no way, shape or form, in my opinion, are we talking about something similar to ’08, ’09 housing real estate crisis. That’s not exactly what’s happening this time.

Theo Hicks: Thanks for sharing that. Is there anything else you wanna mention as it relates to the Coronavirus and real estate that we haven’t talked about already before we hop into the lightning round?

Travis Watts: There’s always a silver lining to this stuff. Even ’08, ’09 — yes, it’s bad news, and there’s negativity everywhere, and nobody knows, and where is the bottom, but there’s always going to be opportunities that pop up… Not only in the syndication space, in the publicly-traded stuff… Look at this as an opportunity to 1) above all, educate yourself. This is a really great time to educate yourself. Figure out what your goals are… And it’s a great time to get started. As you alluded to in the beginning of this podcast, I got started in 2009. Well, that was not quite the absolute bottom of the market, but it was pretty near and close to it. And riding the way up over the next decade is helpful, for a lack of better words. It wasn’t the perfect time to get in, but it was a pretty decent time… So just hopefully you can keep your job, and your income, and your business running through this. Hopefully the stimulus money can help soften the blow on that front, and then wait and see what opportunities can come over the next 6-18 months or so.

Theo Hicks: Alright, Travis, are you ready for the Best Ever Lightning Round?

Travis Watts: Let’s do it!

Theo Hicks: Alright. First, a quick word from our sponsor.

Break: [00:19:48].09] to [00:20:50].16]

Theo Hicks: Okay, Travis, what is the  best ever book you’ve recently read?

Travis Watts: I think you just said the title of it – it’s the Best Ever Apartment Investing Book that you and Joe wrote. That’s actually a really great book that you guys wrote. I actually just bought that the other day and gave it to someone who was looking to be a GP themselves.

One that’s kind of a classic, that I’ve recently re-read is Awaken the Giant Within, a Tony Robbins book. I don’t even know when he wrote that. Probably in the ’80s. But man, is it just timeless; great insight and info for self development.

Theo Hicks: If your passive investing business were to collapse today, what would you do next?

Travis Watts: What would I do next… I’m trying to make this as short as possible, but I’ve always been a huge advocate of the FIRE Movement (Financial Independence, Retire Early), which has a lot to do with reducing your expenses and overhead, making as much money as you can make, and investing that into things that produce passive income. I would stay on the passive income route, I would just look for an opportunity to make as much income as I could, and put my focus back there again.

Theo Hicks: Do you mind telling us about a deal that you’ve lost the most money on? How much you lost, and the lesson that you learned.

Travis Watts: Yeah, I invested in something I clearly didn’t know that much about. It was a distressed debt syndication fund. Sometimes I experiment outside of real estate; that was one of the first big experiments I did. I put maybe — I don’t even know; there were two funds, and I put maybe 175k in, and lost (to date) maybe 40%-50%. It could be a lot worse… It’s in a receivership now, so who knows what that will end up being… But it was a rough ride.

Theo Hicks: What about the best ever deal that you’ve done?

Travis Watts: The best ever deal was actually in the single-family space during — I think it was like 2014 to 2015. I bought a house from a bank, I paid 97k for it. I didn’t do anything to it. I just rented it out as is, and I sold it two years later for 215k.

Theo Hicks: What is the best ever way you like to give back?

Travis Watts: My time. Week to week I take calls with all types of people, not only investors, but people looking to house-hack, or do a fix and flip, or become a GP, sometimes an LP… I just love sharing experience, talking through things, handing off resources… I just mentioned the book you wrote with Joe – I gave that as a resource to someone just last week… So just sharing my time.

I just wish that there had been more people in my life when I got started, that I could have reached out to, to say that classic “Hey, let me pick your brain for 30 minutes.” I give people that opportunity.

Theo Hicks: Then lastly, what’s the best ever place to reach you?

Travis Watts: Probably email. Travis [at] ashcroftcapital.com. Or ashcroftcapital.com/passiveinvestor. I’ve got a free passive investing guide there and it connects you with me if you’d like to jump on a phone call as well.

Theo Hicks: Perfect. Best Ever listeners, make sure you take advantage of that, and make sure you check out the two articles that we talked about today. The first one is “How inflation can benefit you over the next decade”, and the second one is “The Mortgage Crisis: Will You Be Affected?” As Travis mentioned, the Mortgage Crisis one goes into more technical detail on that.

Besides those two articles, the one other main takeaway that I got was you talking about the types of communications you’ve been getting from different sponsors… You’ve got some people who haven’t reached out at all, some people that are reaching out a little bit too much. The sweet spot is monthly communication, letting you know what’s going on at the property and being transparent and honest.

I think that is it… Travis, it’s been nice talking to you. Best Ever listeners, as always, thanks for listening. Have a best ever day, and we will talk to you tomorrow.

Travis Watts: Thanks, Theo.

 

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JF1829: Syndication Tips #1 Lessons Learned from 155 Unit Syndication | Syndication School with Theo Hicks

Moving further away from the Syndication process, Theo is now diving into different stories from himself, Joe, and different guests on the podcast. Today, we’re hearing about a deal that taught an investor a couple of valuable lessons (creating alignment of interest and raising money before or after the deal). Hearing their experience and learning from it, can save you from having to learn those same lessons the hard way (like this investor did). If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!

 

Best Ever Tweet:

“It’s better to have someone who has a lot of experience working in their areas, rather than someone who is kind of good at it”

 


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Go to tenantscreening.com and enter code FAIRLESS for 25% off your next screening.


TRANSCRIPTION

Joe Fairless: There needed to be a resource on apartment syndication that not only talked about each aspect of the syndication process, but how to actually do each of the things, and go into it in detail… And we thought “Hey, why not make it free, too?” That’s why we launched Syndication School.

Theo Hicks will go through a particular aspect of apartment syndication on today’s episode, and get into the details of how to do that particular thing. Enjoy this episode, and for more on apartment syndication and how to do things, go to apartmentsyndication.com, or to learn more about the Apartment Syndication School, go to syndicationschool.com, so you can listen to all the previous episodes.

 

Theo Hicks: Hi, Best Ever listeners. Welcome to the Syndication School series, a free resource focused on the how-to’s of apartment syndications. As always, I am your host, Theo Hicks.

Each week we air two podcast and video episodes – every Wednesday and Thursday – that are typically a  part of a larger series that’s focused on a specific aspect of the apartment syndication investment strategy. For the majority of these series we offer some sort of document, PowerPoint presentation template, Excel template, some sort of resource for you to download for free. All of these documents and Syndication School series can be found at SyndicationSchool.com. Of course, all of it is free to listen to and to download.

Moving forward, we’re most likely going to be focusing on standalone episodes. Series 1 through 21 went through the entire apartment syndication process from start to finish, from essentially having no experience and no education, to selling your first apartment syndication deal on the back-end of the business plan.

Moving forward, we’re going to focus on, again, standalone episodes that either go into more details on a specific step, so examples of how to find deals, how to raise capital, how to find team members… Or case studies on actual deals that were done by actual syndicators. We’ll keep the names anonymous, of course, on those case studies.

This episode is gonna be one of those. We’re gonna go over a case study of a deal, a 155-unit syndication deal in Texas, and specifically we’re going to go over the three takeaways that the syndicator learned from this particular deal.

I think – and I hope you think this as well – that these types of episodes are going to be very powerful, because these are not theoretical. These are people who’ve actually done a deal, they’ve gone through the entire syndication process, then they sat down and evaluated what they did good, what they did wrong, what they want to do better the next time, and then are sharing those lessons with people who haven’t done a deal before. Obviously, lessons that are pulled from actual experience are very important for those who want to replicate that individual’s success… So let us jump into this case study.

This is a 155-unit deal. It’s this investor’s third syndication deal. They had done two deals previously, so obviously they learned lessons from those deals as well… And we’ll go over those lessons in future Syndication School episodes. But first, a lesson from this 155-unit deal that this investor learned was that you will go further by playing to your strengths.

Again, this was this person’s third deal, but on their first deal they did all of it – they found the deal, they underwrote the deal, they performed due diligence on the deal, they closed on the deal, they asset-managed the deal, they put the team together, they secured financing for the deal, they sold the deal on the back-end. They did all of it. Every single role, every single duty that needs to be fulfilled in order to execute the business plan was done by one person. And of course, going through this is a great learning experience. There’s always some sort of silver lining, no matter how thin and how small… But doing everything by himself did not set him up for optimal success for this particular deal, or for the business in general.

In this particular example, this individual was not an expert at all of the duties that I just went over – finding the deal, underwriting the deal etc. One example would be underwriting. This person was not the best underwriter in the world; they knew how to underwrite, they knew what they needed to look at to underwrite, but they were not expert underwriters. They had not spent hundreds and thousands of hours underwriting deals, and like most things, the more you do it, the better you get at it, usually… So he identified the need to find an underwriter.

Now, taking a step back, there are a few different categories of the main GP team. We’re gonna break it down into the money-raiser, the asset manager, and the acquisitions manager. The acquisitions manager needs to be really good at math, really good at underwriting. The money-raiser needs to be really good at networking, and the asset manager needs to be really good at management.

Now, of course, you might be a person who’s really good at math, who’s really good at managing, and who’s really good at networking. Maybe you’re amazing at all three of those. Even if that’s the case, as this person learned, you’re not gonna set yourself up for optimal success if you’re doing all three of those. Sure, if you were spending 100% of your time on each of those tasks, you could do them amazingly… But you can’t focus 100% of your time on all three of those tasks. You can’t spend all day underwriting, because then you’re neglecting raising money. You can’t spend all day raising money, because you’re not out there finding deals. You can’t just be finding deals, because you’re not asset-managing your current deals.

So even if you are amazing at all of these things, you’re still going to want to find a partner, or at the very least find people to work with you as employees, that can cover some of these duties, so that you can focus on the one or two things that you are completely phenomenal at doing, and quite frankly enjoy doing the most.

This investor decided to partner up with someone who had these underwriting skills – as well as other skills – on the second deal. Then on this third deal example it reinforced the need to do this again moving forward, to continue to partner up with this individual… Because, as I mentioned, it allowed him to do what he was good at, and allowed his partner to do what they were good at. Even though they could both do each other’s roles, they decided to split them based off of who was better at which one, and they were able to do a much better job by focusing on one thing and another thing, than one person focusing on both things at the same time.

This allows your business to go a lot further, faster – because that’s the lesson here. Go further by playing to your strengths… Because you’re focused solely on what you are good at. Of course, there’s gonna be overlap between the two roles. This person who had a partner who underwrote also checked the underwriting, reviewed it, and then his business partner also was — if he had someone that could raise money, then they would refer those people to him. But it’s better to have someone who has a lot of experience working on the, for example, underwriting, or working on the asset management, than someone who’s kind of good at it, but is much better at something else.

So the overall summary here is figure out what you’re good at and what you enjoy doing, and if it’s everything – if you say “Oh, I’m good at everything” – then figure out what you’re the best at of those everythings. Focus on that, and then find a business partner or some sort of employee to do the other things that you’re either not as good at, or you don’t want to actually do.

A business partner is probably a little bit better, just because they’re less likely to leave, and they are going to most likely be more experienced than someone who wants to actually work for you. So that’s number one – go further by playing to your strengths.

Number two is do something consistently on a large distribution channel. If you’re a real estate investor, then broadly speaking, you’re in the sales and marketing business. If you’re a fix and flipper, if you’re a wholesaler, if you’re a multifamily syndicator, if you’re a real estate agent, you’re in the sales and marketing business. Maybe buy and hold investors aren’t… But they are, because they’re trying to find deals or trying to close on deals, or trying to find tenants, things like that. So they’re still in the sales and marketing business.

So since you’re in the sales and marketing business, then you need to have some sort of daily, consistent presence online in order to gain exposure and credibility with any of your customers, your clients, or leads… Because that’s what salespeople do – they’re always out there; if you’re in direct sales, you’re actually out there, knocking on doors, getting your face in front of the customer. If you’re in online sales, you’re constantly creating ads to get your advertisements in front of the customers.

So since you’re in sales and marketing, you need to get you, your business, your brand, in front of potential customers. Again, the specific customer depends on whatever investment strategy you’re doing. So if you’re a wholesaler, then it’s fix and flippers or buy and hold investors. If you’re a multifamily syndicator, then it’s investors. If you’re a rental investor, then it’s tenants. If you’re a real estate agent, then it’s people who are looking to sell or buy homes. One way to do this is to tap into a large distribution channel with your content.

We’ve talked about in series number seven the power of the apartment syndication branch. We’re not gonna go into how to actually create this content, what content to create; we’re just gonna say create a thought leadership platform. If you wanna know what a thought leadership platform is, check out series number seven, where we went into extreme detail on all the different types of thought leadership platforms, why it’s important, and how to set yourself up for success.

But one of the steps of this was to tap into a large in-place distribution channel with your thought leadership platform. For example, Bigger Pockets. Bigger Pockets has millions and millions of active real estate investors, so rather than starting from scratch, starting your own blog or your own forum, why don’t you go and post to Bigger Pockets to get your face out there. Amazon.com – you can self-publish your own book and get your name out there. You can do podcasting on iTunes. You can do video blogs, tips or interviews on YouTube. You can create a community on Facebook, or post content on Facebook. You can post content on Instagram, you can post content on Twitter.

Overall, the idea is to find some sort of distribution channel that’s already massive, that’s already used by your potential clients, and rather than starting from scratch, just use that to post your content to. And whatever content you decide to create, whatever distribution channel you decide to tap into, you’re doing this every single day. If you’re doing something like Instagram or Twitter, maybe multiple times per day, and you’re doing it consistently, and you’re doing it on this large distribution channel, of course.

Many people want the shiny object, the golden nugget, the top-secret plan that will let them create massive levels of wealth, and retire on a beach… Anyone who’s reached any level of success knows that that’s not true; there is no secret, special pill you can take that will make you a successful investor. It’s all about the daily grind. It’s about doing things consistently, every single day.

The reason why I say this is because for the thought leadership platform these things take a long time to pick up momentum, to gain a lot of followers, a lot of viewers, a lot of conversions.

I was interviewing someone a few months ago who said that when you are doing a thought leadership platform you need to have a multi-year plan. You want to look at it in terms of multiple years, and not  a few months, not a few weeks. Don’t expect to have a million views on your blog in a few months or a few weeks. Expect to have maybe 1,000 views by the end of the first year, and then double that by the end of two years, and then let the snowball effect help you take off, and launch, and get even more viewers to your content. Again, you need to do it every day, and don’t expect any sort of instant results.

The third lesson from this deal is that there is major power in doing a recorded conference call when raising money. If you wanna learn more about this strategy in particular,  that’s series number 18, “How to secure commitments from your passive investors”, where we went over in extreme details – I believe it was 3-4 30-minute episodes that focused specifically on this conference call. But this is something that you might be saying “Well, obviously I should record my conference call”, but for this person, they did not do that for their first two deals. They just did the conference call, and figured that the people that were serious about investing would attend the conference call, and that they would just invest their money in the deal, the fund would fill up, and he’d be able to close on the deal. He figured that he didn’t really need to do it, and that it wouldn’t help him raise money… But the tip that he learned on his third deal was “Have a conference call with the qualified investors, and then record that.”

So when he was in the middle of raising money for this 155-unit deal, they decided to have a conference call, and unlike the similar calls that they’d done, they decided to record that call. It was very helpful in raising capital for that deal, for two reasons. Number one is that most people in general are busy, but people who are high net worth individuals are most likely even more busy – with personal life, with business, with making money – and that’s why they’re actually being a passive investor in the first place; they don’t have time to do active investing themselves, so they need to have something that is a pre-built system that is essentially hassle-free, that doesn’t take up a lot of their time.

So the expectation in your should be that “They might not be able to make my conference call. If they’re out there doing other things and that’s not allowing them to invest themselves, then what makes me think that they’re gonna be available for a three-hour conference call on this particular day of the week?” So if you record it, it lets them listen to it on their own schedule.

And then secondly, the questions that are being asked are from a group of other investors, which is beneficial to others who are listening but didn’t ask those questions. That basically means that if they weren’t there, and they have questions about the deal that aren’t covered in the investment summary package that they’ll see – because if there’s no recording, then all they’re gonna see is either your initial email or the investment package – they can get answers to questions that maybe they have, that they didn’t have the opportunity to ask, but someone else who’s similar to them asked that question; they listened to the Q&A section on the conference call and had that question asked.

So specifically how to record the call – listen to series 18 on how to secure commitments from your passive investors to learn the logistics of this call. The whole point of this was to say why it’s a powerful way to help you raise more money, and that is 1) it allows people to listen to and learn about the deal on their own schedule, and 2) it allows them to hear the answers to questions that they themselves might have, that aren’t covered in the actual investment summary. Either something that you as the syndicator brought up, or something that another passive investor who is interested in the deal brought up.

Again, the three lessons on this 155-unit case study were 1) You go further by playing to your strengths, 2) Do something consistently on a large distribution channel (for more details on that, series seven), 3) There is major power in doing a recorded conference call on raising money. More information on that on series 18.

Again, this is a standalone episode, so that concludes this series, in a sense. Thank you for listening. I recommend checking out the other Syndication School series we’ve done so far, especially if you’re new. If you’re new, make sure you start at series 1 and work your way through the 21 series that focus on the main body of the syndication process, from start to finish. Make sure you download the free documents that we have available as well, and make sure you keep coming back to listen to these episodes again every Wednesday and Thursday. All of those things can be found at SyndicationSchoo.com.

Thank you for listening, and I will talk to you soon.

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JF1584: German Immigrant With Only 2 Suitcases Grows Real Estate Biz To 3,800 Deals with Jack Bosch

Jack traveled to the US to finish school for a year and go back home. That plan fell through however as he met his future wife and started investing in real estate. Starting with raw land, trying wholesaling, tax liens/tax deeds, eventually moving into commercial and multifamily properties. Hear how he grew from nothing to a very successful investor and apply the lessons to your own business! If you enjoyed today’s episode remember to subscribe in iTunes and leave us a review!

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Jack Bosch Real Estate Background:

  • German immigrant, in 1997 he came to US with 2 suitcases and a bunch of student debt
  • Has negotiated, bought, sold, rehabbed, as well as owned and managed over 3,800 properties since 2002
  • Currently he holds a large portfolio of properties in land, single family, commercial, and large multi-family properties
  • Based in Phoenix, AZ
  • Say hi to him at http://orbitinvestments.com/
  • Best Ever Book: Turn The Ship Around

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JF1564: How to Fund The Earnest Deposit In A Hot Apartment Market #FollowAlongFriday with Joe and Theo

Joe and Theo are back to discuss the apartment syndication lessons they learned over the past week.

Theo provides an update on two Tampa apartment deals he is analyzing, which includes a tip for how to find new team members when looking into a new deal.

Joe provides strategies on how to fund the earnest deposit for an apartment deal in a hot market.

 

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TRANSCRIPTION

Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff. We hate that fluffy stuff, so because of that, today we’re doing Follow Along Friday, where we’re talking about things we’ve learned, or questions that you Best Ever listeners have, and we are addressing those questions and the things we learned; we talked about what we learned, but then how that can be applied to what you’ve got going on… Because most importantly, we wanna make sure that we’re helping you out with whatever you’ve got going on.

Theo Hicks, how do we wanna do today’s call?

Theo Hicks: I’ll hop right into my updates. As I’ve mentioned last week, I am currently looking at two apartments in the Tampa Area. One I’ve already toured and I had underwritten it, and I mentioned last week that NOI that the broker mentioned and that’s on the T-12 were different, and I mentioned that I was going to reach out to a lender to get a quote for debt. Unfortunately, I do not see how I could purchase this property with this specific lender, because the lender said that based off of the NOI that they calculated, which was about $40,000 below what the OM states as the in-place NOI, and they’re only willing to lend up to 3.6 million dollars. So if I wanted to do 80% LTV loan, it’d be 4.25 million… And based on my underwriting, the most I would be willing to pay with these new debt terms would be 4.75 million.

The reason why that’s a problem is because I know that the owner wants 6.5 million. And it’s kind of funny, because when the deal first listed, I looked it up on LoopNet and it said 6.5 million, and then when I went back to look at the price again, it wasn’t there anymore… I asked the broker, I’m like “Was that a mistake, that it was listed? Was that the right price?” He goes, “Yeah, from my understanding I think it was a mistake of them putting it up there. They weren’t supposed to.” But the owner wants 6.5 million for that property. As of now, obviously, if I use the lender that quoted the 3.6 million, it’s gonna be around 55% LTV, and we have to raise 45% in addition to the actual renovation budget.

The broker mentioned that he knows a lender who has some other financing options that I can look at. I’d say right now I’m probably like 10% that we’ll submit an offer on this deal, but I did want to reach out to that mortgage broker and see what options he has… Number one, just to see if maybe he’s got some financing that can make the deal make sense, but also just another relationship to have in the Tampa Bay market, so for future deals, if we hit it off and it seems like he’s a good fit for our business plan, I can continue to reach out to him and get a quote from him, as well as a quote from my broker.

I guess the lesson is that when you’re working on a deal with a broker and you are interested in still continuing to build relationships or have backup team members, just ask them, “Do you know of a mortgage broker? Do you know of a property management company?” and attempt to get something out of the deal… Kind of going back to 50/50 goals – if I don’t end up buying this deal and my goal was just to buy deals, then I would be kind of upset about this process… But I’ve toured this property, I’ve basically formally underwritten the entire deal, with assumptions and renovation costs, I’ve been back and forth with this broker, and now I’ve got a new mortgage broker contact that I’m speaking with this afternoon.

Joe Fairless: What is the alleged reason why the owner is selling?

Theo Hicks: The alleged reason is that they are trying to focus on retail. This is the only apartment that they own.

Joe Fairless: The thriving world of retail, huh? Okay…

Theo Hicks: Yeah…

Joe Fairless: And [unintelligible [00:06:00].02] If it was posted on LoopNet, but then taken down and posted again… It seems like they’re trying to get as many people to be aware of it as possible, right?

Theo Hicks: Yeah.

Joe Fairless: And how long have they been marketing it?

Theo Hicks: For the past three weeks, I’d say.

Joe Fairless: Okay. Well, my guess is — this one, just give it time, and stay in touch with the broker. You know this, but… Stay in touch with the broker, have your price, and then tell them what your price is, and then just let the market show them that the value that they have in their head is not what they’re gonna get. It’s happened multiple times with us, where we have a deal that we’re shown, and in those cases it’s not on the market, and we say “No, thank you. Your price is crazy.” Then they go to the market, and the market knocks the price down, because the initial whisper price was way out of whack.

Theo Hicks: Yeah, that’s how I’m gonna approach it as well. I’ll just stay in touch with the broker, see what’s going on with the deal, [unintelligible [00:07:00].04] and if they sell it for 6.5 million, then maybe I could buy it and make that owner realize that that probably wasn’t the best idea… [laughter] So that’s that deal. I’ll give an update on how that conversation goes with the lender next Follow Along Friday.

The other deal that I mentioned briefly last week – I’ve got a little bit more information on that. It’s a 73-unit in St. Pete. It is the largest apartment building in regards to units on St. Pete Beach. I reached out to do a tour, and the broker responded and said that the owner wants to know if I’m able to pay the price that he wants before touring the property. He wants essentially about 230k-250k per unit for the property.

It’s gonna be a heavy value-add, because in order for the deal to make sense we’d have to probably spend about 10k-12k per unit in interior upgrades. So the plan for that one is I’m gonna underwrite it this weekend to see if we can even get close to 17 million, and then reach back out to the broker if we can be close to that number and tour it next week. If you remember, this is the one that the OM claims you can raise the rent by about $750.

Joe Fairless: Yeah. Well, hey, if you can, then those numbers might work.

Theo Hicks: Seriously, yeah. It’s a really neat property, too. The way that it’s built – I could tell that there’s not a lot of deferred maintenance, and the ongoing maintenance… It just seems like it’s a very solid property, that would be pretty inexpensive to operate. It’s just getting it at the right price, as always.

Those are the two deals I’m looking at, and those will probably be the last two deals that I look at for 2018, unless something else pops up… Because things have been a little slow lately; I haven’t seen a new deal for at least two weeks.

Joe Fairless: And real quick, how’s your Cincinnati portfolio performing? And remind us what you’ve got in Cincinnati.

Theo Hicks: I have 13 units. One is a single-family house that we used to live in, and then we’ve got three fourplexes, and I think we’ve probably turned about 5 or 6 units. On all of them except for one we were able to get higher rents than we were getting before. For one of them, it was vacant for about a month and no one wanted to rent it, and we ended up reducing the rate to below what it was before. But if you include the utility fee that we’re asking for, it’s still technically above what it was before, but the actual rent that’s listed is below what it was before. We’re attributing that to seasonality, because we’re not getting much traffic at all for that unit that was vacant.

And then something else interesting happened a few weeks ago… Do you remember that big ice storm that came through Cincinnati?

Joe Fairless: Big time, yeah.

Theo Hicks: It knocked down one of the trees, and the tree fell on top of the power line, so the power was out a few days at that property. We got a quote from a tree-trimming company to fix the trees at all three properties. Obviously, that was interesting, because I got a bunch of texts from the tenants, asking me what’s going on, so I called my property management company and he talked to every single tenant about it.

Luckily, everything worked out okay. Electricity is back on, he’s working fine… But that was an interesting dilemma, that my property management company solved pretty quickly, so I was pretty happy with how they handled it.

Joe Fairless: Good stuff. As far as my updates – I want to address a question that commonly comes up frequently… And that is “How do I do non-refundable earnest money if I don’t have that money?” This question is really related to how competitive it is in a lot of the markets that you might be looking at to purchase property, and due to that competition, there tends to be non-refundable earnest money day one offers that need to be placed in order to be in the running for a deal, let alone winning a deal.

There are a couple options here, and I’ll tell you how I did it at the beginning, my first deal, which was not non-refundable; it was refundable on my first deal. However, this same approach can be applied to non-refundable earnest money, because either way, refundable/non-refundable, you’ve gotta have the money.

I had spoken to a couple investors who were interested in partnering up with me — and this was before my first syndicated deal, but after I bought four single-family homes… And one of the investors who had expressed interest – I reached out to him and I said, “Well, I’ve got this deal, and it’s $50,000 refundable deposit. I’ve got 30 days before it becomes non-refundable. Will you put that up as the deposit?” He had said he was gonna invest $50,000, so I said then we can just roll that into the deal should we close, and if we don’t close, then he’ll get it right back.

He said, after thinking about it for a little while – and when I say “little while”, maybe a day or so – he said “Yeah, sure, but can you put something down in writing that says if this does become lost, for whatever reason, that you’ll pay me back?” I said, “Absolutely.” Because I’d mentioned I’d pay him back in the conversation… I said, “Yes, absolutely. I’ll put something down in writing.” In that case it was just an e-mail, where I promised to pay him back if I lost the $50,000.

Depending on your relationship with the investor, or how much they want to have it documented, you might need to do a promissory note, or something like that… But I just sent him an e-mail, and that was it. So he put up the 50k, and that allowed me to get the property in due diligence, and then I proceeded.

If it was non-refundable, then it’s the same conversation. You’re simply telling the investor it’s non-refundable day one, so when you put it up, you’ll be investing in the deal that amount. Maybe it’s not the same, but it’s a similar conversation, I should say. If they are wanting to invest in the deal, then that can simply be their investment. If they’re not wanting to invest in the deal and they loan you that money, then it’s basically a  loan, and you’re going to need to have some sort of agreement drafted with them, and then they simply put it up and you pay a certain rate or a certain amount to compensate them.

If you end up closing on the deal, great; you can easily refund that money, plus interest. If you don’t, well then you’re in a tight spot… So borrower, beware here, because it’s non-refundable, you lose the money and you have to pay him back, plus interest, and you don’t have a property. So be careful, and proceed with caution if you do non-refundable day one and you work with someone who you’re borrowing that money from, because you could lose a lot of money… But on the flipside, there are solutions to address this challenge, and that is the solution that I did when I got going.

Theo Hicks: And if they’re going to be an investor in that deal and they put up the earnest money deposit, is there any sort of interest they earn on that, or is it just that rolls over into the deal and they’re like a regular investor?

Joe Fairless: In my case there was not, because I didn’t think of it and he didn’t ask… But if there is a scenario where they ask or you think of it, then yeah, you could pay whatever interest is being generated from the checking or savings account or escrow account that that’s in. We implemented a new policy effective this last deal that we closed, Northern Cross in Fort Worth, where if the investor funded 30 days or earlier than when we’re closing — so if we close on the 30th of January, then if they fund it by December 30th or earlier, then we would pay them interest on their dollars while they’re waiting for those dollars to be put to work in the deal… And it’s just whatever the bank interest is. What was it, 0.4%?

Theo Hicks: 4% annually, yeah.

Joe Fairless: 0.4%, right?

Theo Hicks: Yeah.

Joe Fairless: Yeah, so let’s put that into perspective here – if you invested $100,000, that was $40.

Theo Hicks: Yeah, $33,30 for 30 days.

Joe Fairless: $33,30 for 30 days. We’re not making any money on it really, except for that $33,30 cents, so we’re just passing it along to the investors. And then if any investor funded within that 30-day period where we’re about to close the deal, then we don’t pay interest on that, because ideally we have all the funds in 30 days prior, so we want to reward that for taking place.

Theo Hicks: Another interesting strategy about the earnest deposit that I saw on a Bigger Pockets thread by someone who had just done their first apartment deal – they wanted to make their offer competitive, but they didn’t wanna do the non-refundable earnest deposit from day one… So instead their terms were that it would go non-refundable once the due diligence period was over.

Joe Fairless: That’s pretty typical.

Theo Hicks: Oh, is it really?

Joe Fairless: Yeah.

Theo Hicks: Okay, I didn’t know that. Because I was like, “Well, I don’t wanna do it from day one, so I can just say after due diligence”, but okay, if that’s typical, then I guess it’s not gonna make your offer any more competitive.

Joe Fairless: Maybe… It will make it more competitive than if it wasn’t, but that’s pretty standard, if it’s not non-refundable day one to have it non-refundable after the due diligence period.

Theo Hicks: Okay. Any other updates?

Joe Fairless: Nope.

Theo Hicks: Alrighty. Moving on to the trivia question… The answer to last week’s questions, which — just as a reminder, the question was “What is the city with the highest total share of high-end apartment buildings?” That’s class B+ or higher, and that was per 2017 and the first half of 2018. The answer was Charlotte, North Carolina, with a proportion of 50%.

Joe Fairless: Wow. I would not have guessed that. Well, I knew the answer so I wouldn’t have guessed anyway, because we had it in the Word document, but I wouldn’t have guessed Charlotte.

Theo Hicks: And if you go to our blog and you read “The top 10 US cities with the largest proportion of high-end apartment buildings”, you can see what the top 10 cities are. There’s a link to the actual data and you can see the top 30 or 50 cities, if you’re interested.

This week’s question – and Joe does not have the answer to this one, so he gets to guess – is going to be “What state has the city with the lowest crime rate?” I didn’t wanna do the city, because that’s gonna be impossible to guess…

Joe Fairless: Is it a city of 500,000 or more?

Theo Hicks: No, no, no.

Joe Fairless: Oh, alright… I mean, come on. It’s tough. I’m gonna go with California.

Theo Hicks: Okay. So Joe guessed it’s California. If you comment on the YouTube below or send us an e-mail at info@JoeFairless.com with what state has the city with the lowest crime rate, you will win a signed copy of our first Best Ever book.

Joe Fairless: And let’s see… I’m just trying to determine the definition of a city, versus a town… The population of a city is between 100k and 300k, a large town is a town of 20k to 100k, according to Wikipedia, my quick search… So this city has at least 100,000 people?

Theo Hicks: Yes.

Joe Fairless: Okay, alright. Well, I’ll still say California.

Theo Hicks: Okay. Moving on, obviously the Best Ever Conference is going to happen in February, so we’re a few months away, and each week we’re going to discuss a speaker or a panelist discussion that will happen. This week we are gonna discuss two of your clients, actually, who did their first deals in 2018, their first syndicated deal, Bill Zahller and Kent Piotrkowski. They will be speaking about their first deal on a panel. I’m really looking forward to that one, obviously, because they’re about six months to a year ahead of me… So I’m looking forward to listening to that panel, as well as having a conversation with them after the panel.

Anyone who is interested in becoming an apartment syndicator and wants to know exactly how someone did their first deal, that will be a panel and those are two people you’ll definitely want to hook up with when you’re at the conference.

Go to BestEverConference.com to buy your ticket. Ticket prices go up each week.

Joe Fairless: And then there’s “TAKE5” for a 5% discount whenever you buy your ticket, so make sure to put that in and get your discount.

Theo Hicks: And then lastly, the review of the week for the Best Ever Apartment Syndication Book – if you leave a review on Amazon and send us a screenshot to info@joefairless.com, we will send you the free apartment syndication documents.

This week’s review comes from ReadingFan, and they said:

“So if you bought a house or two as investments or as a flip, and are thinking about upping your game, you NEED to read this book. Chapter 5 will open your eyes as to how much money is on the table, and the rest of the book just takes your hand and walks you step-by-step through the process. I found a lot of material to dog-ear and come back to later (and there’s a picture of that in the review).

Am I confident that I can buy an apartment complex right now? No. I need to get a little more experience under my belt first, but now I feel like I know where I’m going, what I want to do when I get there, and the mysterious path from here to there is now eliminated. That is invaluable.”

Joe Fairless: What a wonderful review. Thank you so much. I’m glad you got the value out of the book and you’re continuing to propel yourself forward to getting a deal done. Thank you for that review. Who was it, what was their name?

Theo Hicks: ReadingFan.

Joe Fairless: Thank you, ReadingFan. Clearly, you’re into self-development based on your name, so I appreciate it. Best Ever listeners, I enjoyed our conversation, good catching up with you. I’m looking forward to talking to you again tomorrow, and between now and then, I hope you have a best ever day.

 

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JF1557: How to Tour An Apartment Community Without Your Property Management Company #FollowAlongFriday with Joe and Theo

Joe and Theo are back for another round of business updates in today’s Follow-Along Friday.

Theo outlines the process he followed when touring an apartment without your property management company and what you need to send your management company in order for them to help you with your underwriting assumptions.

Joe had a new investment offering call last night and offers tips he’s learned from doing over 20 calls.

 

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TRANSCRIPT

Joe Fairless: Best Ever listeners, how are you doing? Welcome to the best real estate investing advice ever show. I’m Joe Fairless, and this is the world’s longest-running daily real estate investing podcast. We only talk about the best advice ever, we don’t get into any of that fluffy stuff.

Today is Friday, we’ve got Follow Along Friday. Joining us is Theo Hicks, like he normally does on Follow Along Friday. The purpose of Follow Along Friday is to talk about what we’ve got going on as real estate entrepreneurs and investors, and how that can be helpful to you as a real estate entrepreneur and investor.

We’ll kick things off with updates, and we’ve got some announcements on some conferences that I recommend, as well as we’ve got a Best Ever Trivia Question, where we’re giving away a copy of the first book that we wrote.

With that being said, Theo, do you wanna kick it off?

Theo Hicks: Yeah, so last week I toured that 80-unit in Tampa that I was talking about… I didn’t give much information on it the last time, because I hadn’t visited it yet, but today I just wanted to talk about the process that I used, and that you can use too, when touring a property and your property management company cannot come. Because we’ve talked about this a lot, that you want your property management company to help you out with your underwriting assumptions, with your rehab assumptions, and to confirm that, because obviously, they’re gonna be the ones that are managing the property.

A challenge I’ve come across in the beginning is obviously lack of credibility, and your property management company is not going to go see every single property you want to see until you’ve actually done a deal. I’m sure for you guys, if you find a deal, your property management company jumps on it because of how many deals you’ve done, whereas for someone who hasn’t done a deal before it’s a little bit different.

So what do you do? Do you just keep them out of the loop completely until the deal is under contract? Well, that’s not what I did. When I toured the property I went with my business partner this time; it’s actually the first deal that he toured with me… And going into it, my plan was to take as many pictures as possible, specifically of anything that I knew we would need to do some sort of rehab to.

For example, during the tour we saw three different units; one of them had just been updated and turned, so someone was actually in there cleaning it. Another unit was already completely rehabbed, and they were renting it at the moment, so… Those units were basically the same. Then there’s a one-unit that was kind of their standard unit.

At this property they’ve got their base unit, and then they’ve done a few minor upgrades to about ten of the units – new appliances, new floors, new cabinet doors… Well, actually they did a lot. The only thing they didn’t do were new lights, and backsplash, and kind of smaller things.

So I obviously needed my management company there to see the conditions and give me an idea of what it would cost to turn around… So I took pictures of the kitchens, the bathrooms, the floors, ceiling fans, ceilings – because they actually have popcorn ceilings… Essentially, everything that I thought that we would need to address, and then the same with the exteriors.

I took a picture of the monument sign, because we plan on doing a new monument sign if we buy this property. I took a picture of the actual stucco, because we if were gonna paint it… There’s an area for a dog park… So essentially anything on the exterior that I also would wanna touch.

And I went home and I uploaded all those pictures to my computer, and then I essentially created a PowerPoint presentation with side-by-side pictures of the kitchens, the before & after, the bathrooms before & after, the floor before & after, and then exactly what I wanted to do to those. For example, the kitchen – I wanted to put in new cabinets, do new counters, new floors, new hardware, things like that… And then below that a list of everything I needed to do, plus a price.

I repeated the same thing for the exteriors as well, and then sent it over to my management company, where they looked at it and said “All this looks good, except maybe this price is a little bit low, and this price looks a little bit high…”

Joe Fairless: What were those items that they were different from you?

Theo Hicks: One of them was the popcorn ceilings, actually. I had no idea how much that would cost to fix. That’s when you’ve got that weird stuff kind of [unintelligible [00:06:10].01] and repaint it… That was one thing that was a lot cheaper than I thought it was gonna be. They said it’d be about $150/unit, and I thought it’d be like $500/unit.

Joe Fairless: One thing I’ve noticed is residents don’t mind the popcorn ceiling, but owners hate it.

Theo Hicks: Good to know. $150 is not that bad, and if we were to remove it, it’s not gonna change our numbers that much… But that’s still good to know. When you’re done sanding it, it looks really nice.

So I think that is for now the best approach to essentially giving your property management company a virtual tour of the property. Of course, it’s way better for them to come, because you’re only taking pictures of things that you see, whereas they’re gonna see things that I wouldn’t have even noticed.

The first property I toured with them they saw that the railings were too low and they were [unintelligible [00:06:57].19] But this property is a little bit different, because it’s really maintained.

Now, going away from — the problem with this property…

Joe Fairless: Real quick before you get into the problem with the property… Is your management team local to Tampa?

Theo Hicks: Yeah.

Joe Fairless: And do they have units that are in this area already, that they manage?

Theo Hicks: Yeah, they know the area very well.

Joe Fairless: My question is how come they are not already familiar with the property? I wouldn’t think that you’d need to take pictures of, say, the monument sign, and the stucco, and even the interiors, because I would think that they would have already been familiar with the property and had been secret-shopping the property just for market rent comps already.

Theo Hicks: I don’t think this property. The last one they looked at, the 292-unit, they knew all about it. This is a little bit smaller, it’s 80 units, and they knew it was for sale… They know what it should sell at, but I don’t think they’ve actually been to this property before. Now, I know that I’m defending them a little bit, but there are a ton of apartments in this area… Like, a TON of apartments. I’ve never seen anything like it before. So I’m sure if I ask them “Hey, have you heard of this property before?” they’d say yeah, but I’m not sure if they’ve actually been there before.

Joe Fairless: Pros and cons of buying a property with a ton of apartments close by, what would you say?

Theo Hicks: Well, it depends on the actual type of apartments. If it was in an area that had a ton of luxury apartments, I’d be a lot more excited about a property of this size… As we’ve mentioned a few Follow Along Fridays back, you can offer that luxury experience without the luxury cost. But in a low-income area it kind of scares me a little bit, because at the end of the day — and this is something I was gonna get into, that I noticed, and again, this could just be a coincidence and a one-time thing… But when I was looking at the comps in this area, there’s so many apartments that it seems like the rents aren’t based on the square footage, they’re just based on a one-bed versus a two-bed… Because I did six comps, and five of them were essentially exactly what our property is gonna be like once it’s done, and the sixth comp is basically like a market leader, so it’s the nicest property in the area… And all the rents were basically the same, the one-beds and the two-beds, even though the really nice one – the units were way bigger.

So when you look at the dollar-per-square-foot, I think the average for the one-bedrooms ended up being $1.30-something, but for this property, the really nice one, since the units were 200 square feet bigger than all the other ones, the dollar-per-square-foot was something along the lines of $1.10, or maybe even lower. I didn’t know what to even think about that, and I still really don’t know what to think about that.

Joe Fairless: Yeah, pros and cons with being in an area that has a lot of apartments in it already, and people go to an area just to shop a lot of different apartments – a pro is you get more drive-by traffic and walk-ins, because they’re shopping other apartment communities that are next door to you, and then they just go shop yours as well… And then the con is the pricing, because you’re competing with a bunch of other apartments in that immediate area, and that could drive your price down because it’s so competitive.

One solution is to offer a look-and-lease special when you have an apartment community in an area that has a lot of other competition. The look-and-lease special works in the following way – you offer a special to someone who comes in and looks at the property and leases it that day. Assuming that you’re able to get their approval done within that period of time, then if they sign the lease or if they sign a commitment to lease at that time whenever they’re there, then you give them some sort of concession, whether it’s half off the first month’s rent, or something else that you and your team come up with… But you really need to be focused — I’m not saying you, Theo, but just as investors in general, we need to be focused on converting the walk-ins to become residents… Because that’s your advantage, so you wanna play up your advantage as much as possible, so really the key is on that conversion, an increase in that conversion rate. Because then, if you’re increasing the conversion rate, then you’re enjoying all the pros of living in that area, or having an apartment community in that area with other large apartment communities, and you’re mitigating the downside of that.

Theo Hicks: Yeah, and that’s something we would definitely have to implement

at this property if we were to buy it, because there are just so many apartments that, as you mentioned, they’re gonna come and they’re gonna look at ten different apartments, and who knows what they’re gonna do to choose one which one they’re gonna pick. That’s great advice.

Now, the problem with this property is that it’s owned by one of those owner-operators, so something–

Joe Fairless: The management fees…

Theo Hicks: A lot of problems… No management fees, very disorganized T-12, they’ve lumped in cap-ex with maintenance and repairs, so it took a while to pull all those out and actually figure out what the actual maintenance and costs were them renovating units… But usually, for apartments there’s not a price set, it’s just dictated by the market, whereas as this is a smaller 80-unit — not necessarily smaller, but in the grand scheme of things, you know, apartments are 150-200 units, and it’s an owner-operator, so they have a number in mind of what they want, and it’s got a list price… And I know cap rates — I’m not basing the purchase price off of the cap rate, but I was just curious to see what the cap rate would be based off of their purchase price and the in-place net operating income, and it’s 4.75%, in a market that’s 6.5% cap rate. So that’s 6.5 million versus 4.75 million dollar purchase price, and for our underwriting the deal makes sense around a 5.25 million… So the last thing I need to do is hear back from our lender, which — they actually called me right before we went live, so I’m going to call him back to see what the debt quote is gonna be, just a ballpark estimate…

Joe Fairless: What mortgage broker are you going with? Mark Belsky?

Theo Hicks: Yeah. And once I get that, I’ll plug that in my cashflow calculator and get the final number, and if they want 6.5 million and we can only pay 5.25 million, we’re gonna offer 5.25 million and see what happens.

Joe Fairless: You’re gonna offer your best and final price at the beginning?

Theo Hicks: Yeah, sorry, I’m gonna probably start at five. 5.25 is the highest we can go.

Joe Fairless: Hopefully they don’t listen to this episode.

Theo Hicks: They won’t.

Joe Fairless: Like, “Wait a second, you offered 5, Theo? I heard on Follow Along Friday that you’re good for 5.25.”

Theo Hicks: The deal still makes sense.

Joe Fairless: Cool.

Theo Hicks: So that’s that deal, and then I quickly wanna talk about another deal we’re looking at, which is the opposite end of the spectrum of this one. It’s similar size, about 70 units, but it’s in an area where it’s the largest apartment in that area. It’s in St. Pete, which is —

Joe Fairless: Sorry, I’m confused. You said it’s 70 units?

Theo Hicks: It’s around 76 units.

Joe Fairless: Okay. But you said it’s the largest apartment? What do you mean by that? Largest building, largest apartment community?

Theo Hicks: Yeah, number of units.

Joe Fairless: Okay, got it. I thought there was some massive apartment unit that you were referring to. Okay.

Theo Hicks: Sorry, the building with the most number of units in St. Pete Beach. This is an area where there’s no construction whatsoever ever. This is obviously [00:14:17].12] property, but… I’m gonna underwrite it; I haven’t underwritten it yet, I’m gonna do it this weekend, but I wanted to mention it because in the offering memorandum – I’ve never seen this before… They said that the rents can be raised by over $700.

Joe Fairless: Oh, wow… That’s New York City style right there, from a [unintelligible [00:14:33].13] to market rate… Huh.

Theo Hicks: Yes, I’m curious to see where they’re getting that from.

Joe Fairless: Yeah, looking forward to hearing more about that one.

Theo Hicks: I will talk about that one next week.

Joe Fairless: Cool. As far as stuff I’ve got going on, we just had our conference call last night on a deal that we’re buying, and one thing I noticed — so it’s like the 22nd syndicated deal we’ve done, somewhere around there, low twenties… I think I finally figured out the way to prepare for these calls, and I believe this will help everyone listening who also has similar conversations or does similar calls… It might be specific to me, but I’m pretty sure it’ll be helpful for others.

What I did is I have an outline for what I’m gonna talk about, I type it out in detail in a Word document, and then I do research, I find different articles etc, so I’m creating the foundation, and then I think about the flow of the conversation and then I write it down in my notebook, the bullet points, so that I just have talking points, versus me looking at a long Word document that is detailed.

That way, whenever I actually do the presentation during the conference call, it’s more conversational versus robotic. The call went really well last night. I’m looking forward to closing out on that deal. So that’s one thing I thought would be helpful for others who are raising capital for deals, or speaking to investors – just take the approach that I’ve just mentioned.

Theo Hicks: What did you use to do?

Joe Fairless: The part that was missing was writing it down in a notebook, the bullet points. And similar to when I interviewed Tony Hawk – I thought I did a terrible job interviewing Tony Hawk, because I was overly prepared (so I thought), but I think you can be overly prepared as long as you don’t follow all that information to a tee whenever you’re having the presentation or that conversation. I think you can have as much information as you can consume to be prepared, but then go in being focused on the engagement that’s taking place at that moment in time and just trust that you’ve written down the bullet points and you know the things you need to mention… And if you don’t mention it at all, then that’s fine, because it’s more about the engagement and getting out most of the stuff that you need to, versus getting out all of it and being more of in an awkward conversation, or sounding like  a robot.

Theo Hicks: It’s something that people that have never done an investment call before, I bet they don’t understand – it is way different when you’re doing a recording talking to someone like we do right now, as opposed to when you’re just talking to yourself. Obviously, the people are on the phone, but they can’t talk back to you, so you’re talking the entire time… So just the flow is way different. When you’re interviewing someone, they can say something and you can build off of that, or [unintelligible [00:17:36].23] whereas when you’re just talking, you miss something and you don’t really know, because no one can tell you, and if  you’re not making sense you don’t really know, because no one can tell you until later… So that’s good, you make the bullet points and make sure that you’re not doing a script, because people can tell when you’re doing a script. If you just do bullet points and then you speak on that bullet point for a couple of minutes, it’ll flow a lot better and it’ll be a lot more conversational, as opposed to you having a 10,000 word script written out and you read everything out straight from it.

Joe Fairless: Yeah, I believe we have stuff in our Best Ever Apartment Syndication Book about conference calls too, and how to prepare for those conversations.

Theo Hicks: Yeah, we do.

Joe Fairless: Yeah, more information on that… If you wanna dig in there, just look in that section of the book.

Theo Hicks: Good stuff. Moving on, we’re going to mention one of your client’s conferences today on the podcast…

Joe Fairless: Yeah, Dan Handford. He’s got a virtual summit, 40+ speakers; I’m gonna be one of them, I think I’m doing the keynote… It’s a virtual conference, so you can attend from your living room, or your office. There’s also several in-person meetup events surrounding the summit, like watch parties, pre-event meetups, things like that. You can sign up for the virtual summit; it’s Dan Handford’s Multifamily Investor Nation Summit, January 17th and 19th, at apartmentevent.com… Super-easy to remember, apartmentevent.com. But wait to get your discount code, which I’m about to give you, and that is “BESTEVER”. You get $100 off. You can go to apartmentevent.com and sign up for that summit.

Theo Hicks: That’s great that he got that URL, apartmentevent.com.

Joe Fairless: Yeah, smart.

Theo Hicks: Alright, so on to the trivia question. Last week’s question was “What is the cheapest state to live in based off of cost of living factors?” The answer was Mississippi. If you were the first person, you’ll be getting a signed copy of the first book that we wrote.

You’ll also want to answer this week’s question in order to get your book… I’m not sure if we’ll do repeat, but definitely continue to answer these questions in order to receive that signed book.

The question is going to be “What is the city with the highest total share of high-end apartment buildings?” These are B+ and higher apartment buildings, and this covers all of 2017 and all of 2019 through October. So what is the city with the highest total share of high-end luxury, class B+ or higher apartment buildings?

Joe Fairless: So it’s the percent of apartment buildings that are B+? What city has the highest percentage of B+ apartment buildings?

Theo Hicks: Exactly.

Joe Fairless: Is it buildings or units?

Theo Hicks: It was buildings.

Joe Fairless: Buildings, okay. Well, you have the answer again, in this document I have in front of me — I definitely would not have guessed it. Next week we won’t have the answer in here, so I’ll give my guess for future questions. Good luck, Best Ever listeners, on this one… It’s definitely surprising.

For the winners of previous questions – we will be sending those books out in the next week or two. Samantha, my right-hand person on my team – she’ll be mailing them out; we’ve gotta get some copies in our office first. Then I’ll sign them and we’ll get them out to you. So if you won already – it’s coming, we’re on top of it.

And then February 22nd-23rd – you know what’s going on, don’t you, Theo?

Theo Hicks: Best Ever Conference 2019.

Joe Fairless: That’s right, Best Ever Conference 2019. It’s in Denver, Colorado. Go to BestEverConference.com. A speaker that I wanna mention is gonna be there is Julie Lam of GoodEgg Investments. She is going to be on a panel that I will be moderating, about taking the leap from smaller stuff to larger stuff, and how she has done that, with some specific case studies, and some other people on the panel will be speaking about that topic as well.

It was one of the highest-rated panels that we did last year, and we usually don’t repeat panels, but we are going to have the same focus for a panel this year; different people on the panel, but the same focus, because it’s not only inspiring, but it’s a how-to panel for how others got from point A to point B in scaling their business… So it will be beneficial for you to attend and hear that panel, as well as the others that we’ve got going on.

You get a discount of 5% when you enter the code — I forget the code, but when you go to besteverconference.com, right before you click the Buy Now button, there’s a code in that little section there, so you can simply enter that code and you get 5% off your ticket.

Theo Hicks: Yes, I’m looking forward to that panel, because I’m kind of going into the same thing right now. Lastly, if you buy the Best Ever Apartment Syndication Book on Amazon and leave a review, you have the opportunity to be the Review of the Week, read aloud on the podcast. This week’s review is from Chad Eisenhart. It’s a little bit longer, but I really wanted to read it, because he had reached out on Bigger Pockets and was talking about how grateful he was for the book, and I asked him to leave a review on Amazon, and he did, so I’m gonna read his review right now. He said:

“The Best Ever Apartment Syndication Book tells you the exact steps to work on to buy apartments with investor money. As you can see from the attached photos, (he attached a photo of a bunch of post-it notes in his book) I found plenty of actionable steps to implement.

Apartment syndication is a team sport and they do not give you a bunch of fluff telling you it will be easy or quick. They tell you exactly what to do today, and tomorrow, and the next day, and at the sale. I am in the process of reviewing my notes and making my list of what to start on today.

Add this in with their podcast (free) and syndicationschool.com (free) and if I do not hit my apartment syndication goals I laid out for myself, the only person to blame is me. I joined a mentoring program for $5,000 a few months back; not to insult that group, but Joe and Theo’s content deserved my $5,000, not just the $43 I spent on the book.”

Joe Fairless: He posted about that in the Facebook group. Did you see my comment about that?

Theo Hicks: Yeah, “I hope the check is on the way…”

Joe Fairless: Yeah, I mentioned to him in our Facebook group, which is BestEverCommunity.com – free to join and hang out with us and chat… Theo was wanting you to send us the $5,000, but I said “That’s ridiculous, Theo. He already paid $43 for the book, so he can just send us $4,957.”

Theo Hicks: There you go… [laughter]

Joe Fairless: But in all seriousness, thank you so much for taking time to write the review, and I’m glad it’s been helpful. Most importantly, I’m glad it’s been helpful. And that code for the Best Ever Conference is “take5”. That’s also on the website, BestEverConference.com.

Well, good hanging out with you, Theo, as always. Best Ever listeners, nice hanging out with you, too. I hope you got some value from this – I’m confident that you did – and looking forward to talking to you again tomorrow.

 

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JF1556: How to Build Your All-Star Apartment Syndication Team Part 4 of 4 | Syndication School with Theo Hicks

Build Your All-Star Apartment Syndication Team with a Real Estate Investment Attorney

Today, we’re discussing three huge parts of your team. We’ll cover when, why, and how to hire a great real estate investment attorney, an investment property mortgage broker, and an investment accountant. If you haven’t listened to the first parts of this series, you should get caught up there first. Those were episodes 15481549, and 1555. Once you have all of these team members in place, you’re one giant step closer to closing your first apartment syndication.

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Free document for this episode:

Building Your Team Spreadsheet


This episode is sponsored by Stessa – Track the performance of your rental properties, as well as your expenses. Get dashboard reporting and tax-ready financials when you create your free account at stessa.com/bestever.


TRANSCRIPTION

The Process for Hiring a Real Estate Investment Attorney, Broker, and Accountant

Joe Fairless: There needed to be a resource on apartment syndication that not only talked about each aspect of the syndication process but how to actually do each of the things, and go into it in detail… And we thought, “Hey, why not make it free, too?” That’s why we launched Syndication School.

Theo Hicks will go through a particular aspect of apartment syndication on today’s episode and get into the details of how to do that particular thing. Enjoy this episode and, for more on apartment syndication and how to do things, go to apartmentsyndication.com. Or, to learn more about the apartment syndication school, go to syndicationschool.com so you can listen to all the previous episodes.

Theo Hicks: Hi, Best Ever listeners. Welcome back to another episode of the Syndication School series – a free resource focused on the how-tos of apartment syndication. As always, I am your host, Theo Hicks.

Each week, we air a podcast series about a specific aspect of the apartment syndication investment strategy. For the majority of the series, we will offer a document, a spreadsheet, or some sort of resource for you to download for free. All of these free documents, as well as past and future Syndication School series, can be located at SyndicationSchool.com.

This episode is going to be part four of a four-part series entitled “How to Build Your All-Star Apartment Syndication Team.”

So far, in part one, you learned the six ways to find the various team members, as well as the process for hiring team members number one and two, which are the business partner and the mentor. In part two, you learned the process for hiring team member number three, the property management company; in part three, which was yesterday, you learned the process for hiring real estate brokers, so team member number four.

In this episode, we will be discussing the process for hiring team members five, six, and seven, which are your attorneys, the mortgage broker, as well as the accountant. Then, lastly, we will discuss what order to actually hire these seven team members in.

The Four Documents Your Real Estate Investment Attorneys Will Help You With

Team member number five is going to be the attorneys. In particular, there are two attorneys that you need to bring on your team – the real estate attorney and the securities attorney. Now, the main purpose of these attorneys is to help you with the creation and the review of the various contracts required to complete a syndication deal.

The Purchase and Sale Agreement

There are essentially four major documents that the attorneys will help you create or review, the first being the purchase and sale agreement (PSA), which is the contract between the seller and the buyer outlining the terms of purchase. Usually, how it works is you’ll get a deal, and when you submit your offer, you submit it in the form of an LOI, which is a non-binding agreement that just shows your intent to buy at these specific terms. Then, they’ll review the LOIs, they’ll have either a best and final sellers call or they’ll just select the best offer, and you’ll be awarded the deal… At which point, the process of signing the PSA begins.

Usually, the PSA is going to be created by the seller’s real estate attorney, but make sure that, if you are the buyer, that you have your real estate attorney review the terms of the PSA as well.

The Operating Agreement

Once you sign the PSA, you move on to the due diligence phase and, at that point, you will need to create document number two, which is an operating agreement. Now, there’s going to be two different operating agreements. The first operating agreement is going to be for the general partnership (GP), so it outlines the responsibilities and ownership percentages of the GP members.

If you remember – maybe it was part one – I’m not exactly sure which episode it was – we discussed the fact that the GP is likely not going to be just one single person. There’s likely gonna be someone who is the acquisitions person, and maybe that person also does the asset management, but then someone else does the equity raising, but then maybe that person who’s equity-raising has four or five people helping them raise money, so that’s six people, and they might have two loan guarantors, so that’s eight people on the GP. So you’re gonna need an operating agreement between those eight members to determine who does what and what percentage of the GP do they actually own.

Then you’ll also need to create an operating agreement between the general partnership and the limited partners (LP). That outlines the responsibilities of both parties, as well as how much of the deal the GP owns and how much of the deal the LP owns and how does the compensation work and things like that. Both of these operating agreements are created by a real estate attorney.

The Private Placement Memorandum 

Now, the third document is the private placement memorandum (PPM), which is a legal document that highlights the legal disclaimers for how essentially the LP can lose money in the deal. It includes a summary of the offering, a description of the property that’s being purchased, information on the investment min and max amounts, the key risks involved with the offering, a disclosure on how the GP and LP are paid, as well as other basic disclosures like information on the general partnership and a list of all the risks associated with fee offering.

Usually, these PPMs are going to be at least 100 pages long for a 100-unit apartment building, and it’s jam-packed with a lot of information. This is going to be created by your securities attorney. The first two – the PSA and the operating agreement – are the real estate attorney, and the PPM is where your securities attorney comes into play.

The Subscription Agreement

Then the fourth major document is going to be the subscription agreement, which is essentially a promise by the LLC that is the purchaser of the property – because, typically, you will create an LLC that will buy the property, and then your investors will buy shares of that LLC. So the subscription agreement is a promise by this LLC to sell a specific number of shares to the LP at a specific price, and it’s also a promise by the limited partners to pay that price. This is going to be prepared by the real estate attorney as well.

How Often Will You Create These Documents with Your Securities or Real Estate Investment Attorney?

For these four documents – for the PSA you could probably work with your real estate attorney one time to create a Purchase and Sale Agreement template, and then just have blanks for the property name and due diligence periods and things like that… So you’ll likely only need to do that one time.

The operating agreement – you’re only gonna need to do the operating agreement one time for the GP, but you’ll need to create a new operating agreement for the GP and LP for each deal that you do. Again, that’s with the real estate attorney.

The private placement memorandum – similar to the PSA, you can probably make that once and then just do some slight changes for each deal. And then, for the subscription agreement – again, that’s gonna be prepared for each deal, but you’ll likely have them create a template one time and then kind of pay them for their time to fill in the blanks.

Those are the four documents that those attorneys will help you create.

Advice You’ll Receive From Your Securities and Real Estate Investment Attorney

Other things that attorneys could do for you is to advise you on the best structures for your operating agreements. For the general partnership, they’re gonna advise you on how to structure that, as well as how to structure the LP and GP. And, usually, they’ll send you a questionnaire and you’ll fill it out, and then, based off of that, they’ll create the operating agreement.

They might go back and forth and ask for questions on certain things they don’t understand, or certain things they need more clarification on, and get more explanation on your background, your business partners’ background, what you’re trying to do with the deal so they could help you create the best structure possible.

Then, of course, you can consult with them on an as-needed basis. If things come up legal-wise, then you can call up your real estate attorney and have a conversation with them about that.

Securities and Real Estate Investment Attorney Compensation

Now, each of these documents obviously cost money, and that’s how the attorneys are gonna be compensated. Typically, all of these will likely be made between putting the deal under contract and closing. They might make the operating agreement for the general partnership before you put the deal under contract, but the PSA, the PPM, and the subscription agreement are things that are likely going to be created once you have the deal under contract, so you have to keep in mind how you are actually going to fund these legal fees before you close on the deal because you’re not gonna have investor money yet. So, it’s gonna have to either come out of pocket, or someone else is gonna have to cover it. But you will get reimbursed at closing, so at least you’ll get your money back, as long as you do close.

These are ballpark numbers how much is it gonna cost for these four documents… And, again, it’s basically gonna depend on how complicated the partnership is or how complicated the contract is going to be… Because I’m going to give you some pretty big ranges.

Payment Via Document Fees

For the purchase and sale agreement, it could be anywhere between $1,000 to $5,000. For the operating agreements, I’ve seen as low as $350 and as high as $5,000.

For the PPM, this is the one you’re gonna pay the big bucks. This could be anywhere from a few thousand dollars – but that’s gonna be unlikely – up to $40,000. So you’re gonna be somewhere in the $10,000, most likely. But, if you’re doing a super-complicated deal, then expect to shell out 40k-60k for this private placement memorandum. Maybe a great way to break into the apartment syndication industry is to become a securities attorney and, if you partner up with some investors, you can make a ton of money by creating these documents.

Lastly, the subscription agreement is gonna be similar to the operating agreement, so it could be a few hundred bucks to a few thousand dollars, depending on how complicated the structure is.

Qualifying a Securities and a Real Estate Investment Attorney

In order to actually qualify the attorney — these last three team members, you’re not gonna qualify them and sell yourself to them the same way that you did for the property management and the brokerage, because they’re more providing kind of a service that you just pay them money and they do it for you; you don’t need to win them over with your experience and background. You show them the money, and they’ll create these documents for you.

Ensure Your Securities Attorney Specializes in Apartment Syndication

But there are a few things you wanna do. You don’t wanna just work with just any securities attorney or any real estate attorney. For the securities attorney, it’s really not going to be that big of a deal. You just wanna make sure that they actually specialize in apartment syndications and they specialize in the types of apartment syndication that you’re going to do. The two major ones are gonna be 506(b) and 506(c), which we’ll talk about in more detail in future episodes, but just very high-level – 506(b) you’re allowed to bring on sophisticated investors, so you don’t just need to bring on accredited investors… But you must have a pre-existing relationship with all of your investors. You can’t find someone one Bigger Pockets and have them invest in your deal; you need to know them and prove that you know them.

506(c) is kind of the opposite – accredited investors only, and these investors must be verified by a third-party. And you as a syndicator are allowed to solicit for this money. So you can create Facebook ads, you can post about it on the Bigger Pockets marketplace, you can drop fliers from the sky… You can really do whatever you want with 506(c) in regards to soliciting for money. So those are kind of the major differences between the two.

506(b), again – you don’t need accredited investors, but you must know your investors. 506(c), accredited investors only, but you don’t need to know them, and you can actually advertise for your deals. That’s for the securities attorney.

Make Sure Your Real Estate Investment Attorney Has Experience with Syndications

Then, similarly, for the real estate attorney, you wanna make sure that they have experience making operating agreements and subscription agreements for apartment syndications. You don’t want a real estate attorney that focuses on single-family, for example. Essentially, you wanna make sure that these attorneys know how to do exactly what it is you want them to do and they’re not learning on your dime.

Now, you don’t wanna pay the attorneys until you are for sure going to close on the deal because you don’t wanna spend thousands of dollars on the PPM and the PSA and the operating agreements if you don’t end up actually doing a deal. So what you wanna do is you want to first have an intro call. 30 minutes (it’s usually going to be free) just to qualify them to make sure that they actually specialize or at least have experience in doing exactly what it is that you wanna do (apartment syndications 506(b), for example). But you don’t want to, after that, have them create your operating agreements and PPMs. Wait until you start actually looking at deals and you’ve got a deal that you are interested in buying before reaching out to them and saying, “Hey, it’s go time”, to start creating those documents. So that’s the attorney.

Your Investment Property Mortgage Broker Will Provide Debt and Equity

Next, it’s going to be the mortgage broker. The mortgage broker, as the name implies, is going to provide financing for the deals. That’s their primary focus, and that’s what all mortgage brokers are able to do. Additionally, you might find a mortgage broker who is willing to help you with the underwriting. If you just find a deal that you’re interested in submitting an offer on, you can send them the info and they will provide you with the ballpark loan terms, and they also might actually provide equity.

A mortgage broker that I work with – they provide debt but they also raise money from institutions. As long as you need to raise more than a certain number of dollars, they can help you raise money for that deal, as well.

Compensating Your Investment Property Mortgage Broker

Primarily, they provide financing for deals, but they might have additional services as well. Like the property management company and the real estate broker, in order to earn these additional services, you’re going to need to prove yourself. We’ll talk about that here, in a few seconds, but how they are compensated first – they are usually paid closing costs and financing fees. That’s what comes out of your pocket, at least.

A good rule of thumb for closing costs is it’s gonna be around 1% of the purchase price, and the financing fees are gonna be around 1.75% of the purchase price. In total, around 2.75% – 3% of the purchase price is gonna go towards paying this lender or mortgage broker.

Qualifying an Investment Property Mortgage Broker

Now, in order for you to qualify them, to make sure they’re in alignment with what you need, there’s a couple of questions you want to have answered. And, again, don’t just ask them these lists of questions robotically; try to organically get this information out of them and do some research on them beforehand to see if you can figure out some of the answers to these questions.

How Many Deals Have They Financed? 

One thing you wanna know is how many deals they provided financing on in the last 12 months, to get an idea of how active they are.

What Types of Loan Programs Do They Offer?

Then you also wanna know what types of loan programs that they offer to someone like you, with your background. So explain to them your background, exactly what it is you’re looking to do, and then ask them what’s the best loan program that they have to offer.

Do they offer agency debt, do they offer bridge loans, do they offer interest-only loans? What type of loan-to-value can they provide? What are the loan terms? Three-year loans, twelve-year loans, thirty-year loans? Will the debt be recourse or non-recourse? If you don’t know what those things mean, I will definitely do future episodes on lending and financing and loans, but, for now, if you go to our website, JoeFairless.com and check out the blog, you’ll find different posts on agency versus bridge loans, recourse versus non-recourse… Or even better, just Google “Joe Fairless bridge loans” or “Joe Fairless recourse vs. non-recourse” and you’ll find information on that… But, again, I promise you I will do future Syndication School episodes focused solely on talking about debt.

How Do They Qualify a Deal?

You also wanna ask them how they qualify a deal. What do they need from you in order to qualify you for financing? Usually, if you have a deal, they’re gonna ask you for the rent roll, the Trailing-12 months profit and loss, as well as the offering memorandum and a pricing target, and then they will provide you with a quote based off of that information. Usually, they’re gonna provide financing based off of a loan-to-value or loan-to-cost.

What they’ll do is they’ll use the in-place NOI, or they might do some things differently, like they might use T-3 income (trailing three months income) and then maybe a combination of the 12-month income and the 12-month expenses, or maybe they might use the expenses that you’re going to project, but they’ll use some sort of NOI – they all calculate it differently, as well as the market cap rate, to determine what the value of the property will be, and then they will fund a percentage of that. That’s what the LTV is. An 80% LTV means that they will fund 80% of the property value. If the value of the property is a million dollars, then they will loan $800,000 and you’ll need to come up with the remaining $200,000.

Now, the cost is based off of the value plus the cap-ex costs. If the all-in price is going to be a million dollars, so the purchase price is $800,000 and the renovations are $200,000, and the loan-to-cost is 80%, then they’ll loan $800,000 and you need to come up with the remaining $200,000. Usually, loan-to-cost is for bridge loans, which are these shorter-term construction-type loans for properties that can’t qualify for agency debt.

Now, they might also take the debt service coverage ratio into account. Essentially, that is a ratio of the net operating income to the mortgage payments. They’ll obviously wanna see a net operating income that’s higher than the mortgage payments. The standard minimum is going to be 1.25 for agency debt and around 1.1 for bridge loans. Again, that’s based off of the in-place NOI, or however they calculate the NOI, and they will use that plus the minimum debt service coverage ratio to determine the maximum amount of debt service or monthly mortgage payments that you’ll pay, and then they’ll kind of back-calculate how much money they can lend you based off of the maximum amount of debt service the property can qualify for.

How Much Financing Will You Qualify For?

You’re also gonna wanna ask them how much financing that you will actually qualify for. Ask them how much they can loan to you personally. Again, they’re gonna base this off of the LTV, maybe debt service coverage ratio, but, at the end of the day, they’re gonna need someone to sign on the loan that meets the liquidity, net worth, and experience requirements… Which, if you don’t remember what those are, go back to listen to part one. That’s where I have the conversation about the loan guarantor. The loan guarantor is the person who signs on the loan to help you qualify.

Let’s say, for example, you are buying a million-dollar property and they’re willing to lend you $800,000. You’re going to need to have a net worth of $800,000, as well as experience with a similar-sized deal, and then some sort of liquidity requirements; it might be 10% or 15% of the $800,000. If you don’t meet that, then you’re gonna need to bring someone or someones on to help you sign the loan and then compensate them. Again, I’ve talked about the loan guarantor in part one of this series… But, to determine how much you actually qualify for, they’re gonna ask you to fill out a personal financial statement; you’ll fill out all your financials, credit history, net worth, things like that, and they’ll figure out exactly how much money they can lend you.

How to Qualify as an Investor with an Investment Property Mortgage Broker

Now, in order to win them over and, ideally, have them provide you with better financing, to provide you with estimates on financing when you’re underwriting, as well as, maybe if they’re equity raisers, they’ll trust you enough to have their investors invest in your deal… Here are a few things that you can tell them or that they’re at least going to ask you when you’re talking to them so that they can actually qualify you as an investor.

Who Is Your Property Management Company

They’re gonna wanna know who your property management company is, they’re gonna wanna know the statistics on them. How many units do they manage? What size are these units? Are they local? What type of properties do they focus on? T

What Type of Property Are You Buying? 

They’re also gonna wanna know what your business plan is; what type of property are you buying? Value-add property? What’s the cost gonna be? What’s the number of units? What do you expect to pay for cap-ex costs? Is it gonna be a certain dollar per unit? How much do you expect to pay for exterior renovations? What’s your plan for when you actually take over the property? How long will it take to implement these renovations? How long will it take to increase the occupancy rates? Essentially, what’s your five-year proforma look like? Or seven-year, depending on how long you’re gonna hold on to the property, which is the last thing they wanna know about your business plan – what’s your hold period? Are you gonna hold on to it for one year, five years, ten years, indefinitely? They’ll want to know that as well.

How Will You Fund the Deal?

They’ll also wanna know how you’re gonna fund the deal. How much money are you personally gonna put in the deal and then how much money are you going to raise and then who are these investors and how do you know them?

How Have You Structured the Deal?

They’re also gonna want to know what the LP/GP structure is. Are you bringing on debt investors or equity investors? If debt, what interest rate are you paying them? What’s the balloon period? If equity investors, what’s the preferred return? What’s the profit split? They’ll wanna know all these things.

How Are You Funding Upfront Costs?

They’ll also likely wanna know how you plan on funding the upfront costs, so the costs between contract and close: earnest deposit, due diligence fees, the legal fees I just talked about earlier… How are you gonna fund these things?

What Is Your Experience Level?

They’re also going to want to know what your multifamily experience is because most lenders are gonna have a very vague experience requirement that they can’t necessarily communicate to you during the initial conversations, but… The best explanation I’ve heard is that you need to have experience with a similar deal in the past. If you don’t, then you’re gonna need to have a loan guarantor who does.

What Is the Experience Level of Your Team Members?

And they’re also gonna want to talk about your team members and their experience as well, particularly the property management company… Because they’re going to want to see the contract between you and the property management company to make sure that the company who is managing the property will take good care of it because, again, the lender wants to get paid every month.

What Do Your Personal Finances Look Like?

And then, lastly, they’re gonna ask you to fill out that personal financial statement to determine your liquidity, net worth, credit history, existing debt, things like that, to qualify you for financing.

The Duties of an Investment Accountant

Now, the last team member is going to be the accountant. The accountant will do your yearly taxes. They’ll create the schedule of K-1’s, the tax documents for your investors at the end of the year. Ideally, they help you with ongoing bookkeeping, and then they should provide you with general tax advice, as well as some tax planning services. And then, maybe if this is what you decided to pursue, they could help you with a 1031 exchange on the back-end.

Qualifying Your Investment Accountant

Again, similar to the lawyer, you don’t really need to win over an accountant. Just pay them money, and they’ll do what you paid them to do. But like all other team members, you want to qualify them to make sure they’re a good fit.

Do They Currently Work With Syndicators? 

One important thing to know is if they currently represent apartment syndicators because you don’t want them learning the apartment syndication business plan and the tax benefits for apartment syndications on your dime. They should already know what types of tax deductions you can take, and also know the apartment syndication business model.

How Are Their Fees Structure? 

You’re also gonna wanna know how their fees are structured… A good understanding of exactly how you’re going to be charged. Is there a fee each time you call them or do you put them on a monthly retainer and you can call them whenever? Do these ongoing fees include the tax returns at the end of the year? Is that separate? Do they do bookkeeping, and how much do they charge for that? Things like that.

Who’s Your Main Point of Contact? 

You’ll also wanna know who’s your point person. Are you gonna be communicating back and forth with a partner or will it be a mid-level accountant or will it be someone right out of college? Ideally, it’s at least a mid-level accountant, but even better would be the partner.

What Are Their Tax Positions? 

You’ll also wanna know how conservative or aggressive their tax positions are. That should obviously align with your preferences. If you’re very conservative, then you want a conservative accountant. If you’re very aggressive, you’ll want an aggressive accountant. But if you do get an aggressive accountant, you’ll also wanna know how that info will be communicated to you and whether or not you have the final say of whether you can deny or accept those tax positions.

How Will They Keep Your Information Secure? 

You’ll also wanna ask if they have a secure portal to transfer sensitive files back and forth, which they probably will… But that’s important because tax documents include important information, like your social security number, how much money you make, things like that… If it’s not a secure portal, then you might run into identity theft issues, so you wanna just confirm that they’re not just sending information back and forth via regular e-mail.

Are They Proactive When it Comes to Changing Tax Codes?

You’ll also wanna know how proactive they are with tax planning and how the tax planning services work. Obviously, you want them to be proactive and be up-to-date on the tax code, and then get some information on how tax planning works, and see if that aligns with what you’re looking for.

Do They File Tax Returns for All State and Local Governments?

You’re also going to want to know if they’re able to file tax returns for all state and local governments in the country because you might move or you might change markets and you still wanna work with this accountant and not have to start over with someone else.

What Are They Expectations for You?

You’ll also wanna ask them what they expect of you, just to set expectations earlier. What do they expect you to send them, when do they expect to send it to you, how do expect conversations to go? Things like that.

When Do They Send Out K-1’s?

And then lastly – this is a big one – you’ll wanna know when they will send you the investor K-1’s. A big thing that you’ll hear from passive investors is that the syndicators either don’t send the K-1’s on time or the K-1’s are incorrect. We pride ourselves on sending the K-1’s by March 31st each year. You’ll just wanna confirm with the accountant when they will get those to you by and what you need to do in order to stay on schedule.

That’s the accountant… Again, really the only way to win them over is just to pay them; whatever compensation structure they have, just make sure to pay them on time. And, obviously, when they tell you what they expect out of clients, you meet that and don’t go overboard.

How to Hire Your Real Estate Investment Attorney, Broker, and Accountant

Lastly, let’s talk about what order to hire your team members in. Again, your team members are gonna be a partner, a mentor, a property management company, real estate brokers, attorneys, mortgage brokers, and accountants.

Here’s the best path forward for someone who has none of these — but, at the end of the day, it’s really up to you. This is just what I found to be the best way because, again, if you remember, when you’re trying to win some of these people over to your side, you’re leveraging the experience of other team members. So, if you don’t have that team member yet, then you’re leaving a lot of leverage on the table. Here’s what I did.

Start with the Mentor

First, you wanna start with a mentor. Start very high-level. Find a mentor who’s an active apartment syndicator, who is successful; they’re doing deals that at least meet their projections and, ideally, exceed those projections. Then, from there, you should work on finding a business partner.

Next, Add a Partner

With the mentor, you’ll learn a lot about apartment syndications, and then you’ll learn what you like and what you’re good at and what you suck at. Then you can find a business partner to complement your strengths. Once you have a mentor and a business partner, next is to work on getting verbal commitments from investors, which is going to be the focus of the next series. The next series in the Syndication School is gonna be all about passive investors. I’m not sure how many parts it’s gonna be yet, but it’s gonna be a long one.

Find a Property Management Company and an Investment Property Mortgage Broker

Once you get your verbal commitments from investors, next is to start reaching out to property management companies and mortgage brokers. Then once you’ve got your property management company and your debt lined up and your equity lined up, a business partner and a mentor, that’s when you start looking for real estate brokers because, at this point, you’re ready to start looking for deals.

Hire Your Real Estate Investment Attorney and Investment Accountant Last

And then, lastly, as you’re looking for deals or after you find a deal, you can start reaching out to attorneys and accountants.

That concludes this series. In this particular episode, part four, you learned the process for hiring these final three team members, which are the real estate and securities attorney, the mortgage broker, and the accountant, as well as what order to actually hire these team members in.

To listen to part one through three of this podcast series, which is “How to Build Your All-Star Apartment Syndication Team”, and to download your free team-building spreadsheet document, as well as other Syndication School series about the how-tos of apartment syndications, make sure you visit SyndicationSchool.com.

Thank you for listening, and I will talk to you next week.

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